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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
 Posted - 04/19/2002 : 1:23:16 PM
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What religious beliefs do the people of this board have. I'm really interested in all the world's religions, and this may have been posted before, but any, just out in the open here, what'd you all believe?
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pcbTIM
Alien Abductee
USA
6501 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 6:55:38 PM
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I think we have a lot of atheists on this board....but I'm Catholic. And as a real Catholic, I question everything the Church throws at me.
"Life is what you make of it, not what you take from it." |
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dick mountjoy
Chatterbox
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 7:10:44 PM
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i would be one of those atheists.....i basically feel that organized religion causes more problems than it cures. if you are a member of one of those religions, i have no problem with that as long as you choose that religion because you believe what it preaches. i can't stand people who preach their religion when they have never even taken a look at other lines of religious thought. do i believe there is a 'god'? not specifically. i tend to think of things in a scientific and spiritual manner. the earth was created just as the other planets in our solar system were created, not by some overaching 'god'. we all are creatures of our mother earth and the stars. we are all born from the earth, we survive off of the earth and when we die we enter back into the earth. in that sense i do feel that we are all reincarnated as something else in the next life. those are just my thoughts as of today, who knows what they may be tomorrow.
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 7:12:39 PM
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i'm an atheithist. i think it's all one big joke. but i'm not predjuiced against people. u can believe what u want. just don't force or shun other who don't agree w/ u.
ye can swab the deck...but please don't write onit. |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 7:35:24 PM
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I am Jewish... and although I like the traditions, I regard them as just that, traditions. For the most part, my belief structure is centered around faith and spirituality, rather than the bible and what I'm supposed to think based upon the preachings and rules of stories from 3000 years ago. I think organized religion is a good starting point, especially for children, because it helps to explain a lot of the questions that they may have about our world before they have the ability to comprehend more realistic views. As one gets older, and like Dick said, is able to look at things from a more realistic viewpoint, the traditions of many religions become very dated. My biggest problem with religion as we know it, is that it is just one more barrier to put up between people. It is just one more way to label someone as "this" versus "that." So instead of tall or short, fat or skinny, black or white, canadian or german... we can just separate ourselves in one more way. Baptist or Catolic, Protestant or Bhuddist, Muslim or Jewish. I think people consistently take organized religion out of context. They take things so literally that they handicap themselves from finding a true feeling of spirituality because they don't think for themselves. As an extension of that, they carry out horrible acts in the name of their religion simply because they disagree with what someone of another religion might think. As far as I can tell, the idea of religion is faith, and that seems to have been lost in all the doctrine and organization.
Someone once asked me why, being Jewish, I don't keep kosher. It was at that point that the epiphany hit. This person was concerned with a religious rule, not with faith. They weren't concerned with whether or not I felt a "closeness" to god... they cared whether or not I was a "good jew." The only thing I could respond with was, "Because I believe god cares more about what's in your heart than in your stomach." It just illustrates how people can view things in different contexts. I thought Fluffy might feel lonely being the only one to write very lengthy posts, so I figured I'd join in. That's my view on religion in a nutshell. God=yes. Faith=yes. Religion=with a grain of salt.
-J
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 7:38:55 PM
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silky said quote:
canadian or german
well ithink canadians are better, eh?
i'm keepin' TIMe with my own set of keys.... |
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pcbTIM
Alien Abductee
USA
6501 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 7:43:44 PM
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quote:
So instead of tall or short, fat or skinny, black or white, canadian or german...
Yeah.....I'm tired of those Canadian-German wars too.
quote:
"Because I believe god cares more about what's in your heart than in your stomach."
But that is the best possible response that could have ever been said about following doctrine. It's so good it should have been mine! I truly belive that as well. In Catholicism, it's a sin to do basically do anything. And I think it's a shame that the Church uses scare tactics to prevent you from masterbating, etc. I mean, if you're with a girl and you're a good Catholic, you'd think it's a sin to actually like her. That's bullshit. It's kind of like Family Guy.
"Teacher.....why did the dinosaurs die out?"!
"Because you touch yourself at night."
"Life is what you make of it, not what you take from it." |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 7:50:32 PM
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a sin to masturbate,eh pcbdmb? that deserves a warm chuckle.
i'm keepin' TIMe with my own set of keys.... |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 9:13:19 PM
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Personally i'm kinda like not religious but spiritual in a way. I believe like the reincarnation shit like that, and in a god figure, and an afterlife, kinda like all of it combined in religion, not thinking one is better than the other. i read a quote once that said "god is too big for one religion" i believe that.
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 9:20:54 PM
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reincarnation doesn't make sense to me. at one point there were a given number of organisms on the planet. these things died. that number has increased since. where are the extra spirits coming from?
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
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dick mountjoy
Chatterbox
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 9:36:46 PM
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i guess thoughts on reincarnation are based on the fact that a being doesn't really have a 'soul' as christianity terms it. i would think that a majority of people would say that humans have souls but other animals don't. my feeling is that humans are just another animal in the food chain. why should we have souls and other animals don't? the masses only believe they have souls because someone has convinced them of that fact. i feel that humans, just like every other organism on this earth, at one time or another dies and disinegrates back into the earth. at that point, i think that organism is no longer. but, in a sense, that organism lives on once it is absorbed into the earth and gives life to another organism (plants for example). the plants are eaten by the fauna, which are eaten by other fauna (including humans). so if you think about it, everything you eat contains some manifestation of everything that came before, it gives you life, and once you die, you will eventually give life to something else. thus it's just one big circle of life.
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 9:37:14 PM
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jay has this cool belief aboot god.
i'm keepin' TIMe with my own set of keys.... |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 9:41:07 PM
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Oh yeah, let me clear this up too, i don't belive like we die, then come back as a butterfly...no not at all like that. I mean like coming back as humans again and living another life to learn what it can teach the soul that we missed in past lives. but where all the humans come from...well shit, i'm stumped on that, good question. ah well, something else for me to ponder...
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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pcbTIM
Alien Abductee
USA
6501 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 02:37:41 AM
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One day I thought....what if there was no heaven....that actually scared me. I mean....at that moment, I felt truly alone. Quite frightening. Just the fact that knowing one day I will die is something i don't like to think about.
"Life is what you make of it, not what you take from it." |
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Jason
Chatterbox
194 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 11:57:38 AM
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I am not very religious either by the way...I think the church is set up to keep people in line...a scare tactic...people use the church like a crutch..it is so much easier to say I can't do that becase "enter your higher power here according to the church here" says not to then for them to actually give a response that they have thought out for themselves.
Did god create man or did man create god?
Question everything you are told and then question what you believe!
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 3:11:06 PM
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god creates man.......man destroys god
i'm keepin' TIMe with my own set of keys.... |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 3:22:41 PM
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quote:
And I think it's a shame that the Church uses scare tactics to prevent you from masterbating, etc.
Scare tactics AND circumcisions...
"People always tell you to color inside the lines, [but] who drew the lines in the first place? [Think about that.]" -Victor Wooten |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 3:27:14 PM
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Flea said quote:
scare tactics AND circumsions
god i burst oot laughing on that one
i'm keepin' TIMe with my own set of keys.... |
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Jay
Alien Abductee
Vatican City
2279 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 7:12:11 PM
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I think gos is a sort of force...it's what connects us together and gives us inspiration...and when we die, we become part of that force...just what i think....
Jay
My last name is confusing...It is Spelled Wiegand but is pronounced Weegend...another insult to the English language... |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 7:22:44 PM
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www.episode2.com
Just kidding... that's actually a pretty cool outlook on things.
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 7:58:40 PM
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This post is now a FLAMING something-or-other!!!
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy          |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 9:32:10 PM
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yeah, i believe in god and love him, i think he(or she at that) is the glue that holds us together, But also i think church is what fucked up everything, especially back in the dark ages and the inquisitions and burnings of witches, and shit like that...not cool at all
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2003 : 10:53:15 PM
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| I'm a Christian, but I put my faith in God rather than humans. Humans are what ruin every single organized religion on the planet. I do still enjoy fellowship and conversation with other Christians, which is why I worship on Sundays and participate in Bible studies. Bible studies help me to figure out what I believe and gives me somebody to discuss these things with. |
teri 
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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Bustoff
Chatterbox
145 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 12:28:19 AM
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quote:
Bible studies help me to figure out what I believe
Me too. If you call yourself a Christian, I think the only way to figure out what to believe is by reading the Bible. Lots of people don't read for themselves and they base everything they believe on opinions, whether it be their own or someone else's. That's like forming your own opinions about how civil law should apply to you and believing that you should be treated based on those opinions rather than what the law plainly says.
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Bustoff
Chatterbox
145 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 12:40:16 AM
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I forgot to mention something regarding what people say about the Bible being outdated. If you believe in God and his power, then how can you not believe that his book which he inspired is not true and has no power? If God is this powerful, a book that he inpired would not lose power over time. There are verses in the Bible that talk about this.
Of course, if you don't believe in God and his power, I wouldn't expect you to share these views. |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 03:20:14 AM
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| To me the bible is a good book. I'm actually reading it for a theology class right now and it's ok, but painfully outdated in the sense that there are things in there that science clearly explains now. But whatever, I'm a skeptical athiest. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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pcbTIM
Alien Abductee
USA
6501 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 04:24:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fleabass76
But whatever, I'm a skeptical athiest.
Haha.......I just found that redundant. After all, you don't meet very many optomistic aethists. |
Gay marriage killed the dinosaurs. |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 08:16:51 AM
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whoa...this is one of those topics people usually don't talk about.
I don't particularly believe in organized religion for myself. Grew up in a very strict Lutheran family and almost didn't get confirmed as a kid because I asked too many questions.
Rebelled and joined the Mormon church for about 6 years. So much I loved about that church, but by the time I met my husband Iwas already an inactive member for private reasons, so I joined a local Presbyterian church with him where we were eventually married. When we moved, we visited local churches and found a Methodist church we liked. Both of our children were baptized there. Then the power struggle between ministers. Things got weird. When my daughter was in third grade she was refused a Bible because we had missed the first Sunday in Sept and she had to attend the first three weeks to get a Bible with her class. Keep in mind she was active in the church and was in the cherub choir. They wouldn't even let her stand with the other kids in front of the church. She cried the whole service and it broke my heart. I never went back. We tried going back to my "old" Lutheran Church but the minister there was power hungry too and she was not at all what I thought a minister should be. A dear friend of my family was in the hospital suffering from a stroke (he was only 42) and this minister went in and asked him if he believed in Jesus Christ, he ddn't answer, she repeated it 3 times and still he didn't answer, so this "woman of the cloth" threw up her hands and said "this is a waste of my time!" and left! That and similar attitudes from her left me with a bad taste for organized religion.
I respect all those who truely believe. The religion I feel most interest in is probably Muslim which I know is not popular now. I could never join because the truth of the matter is I am not that dedicated which is probably why you won't find me in Heaven if there is such a place. But I enjoy reading about their religion, I had this interest years before all the 9-11 events, so it isn't new with me. I guess I am interested in it more from a history point of view than a religious one.
I spent a great deal of time searching out groups like yours Teri, but never found one I didn't feel was hypoctritical, thus over time I found I didn't need it and get spiritually fulfilled in other ways.
I bet few of you will take time to read this....don't blame you.hehehe Mental note....don't get PJK started on the topic of religion! hehe
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"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 09:36:34 AM
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And I like you just the way you are! 
(got a 2 hour delay today due to snow, thus the posting, hehehe) |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Dickey500
Chatterbox
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 09:59:47 AM
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| No afterlife, no reincarnation...I'm looking forward to being dirt - everyone likes to play in dirt every once in a while. |
"All of us contain Music & Truth, but most of us can't get it out." - Mark Twain |
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 2:06:06 PM
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organized religion causes more problems then it solves. everyones view of reality, god, life, the afterlife, death is different. you can not say there is a set way, and everyone else is wrong. how the hell do u know, just cuz there is a book that says this or that. that doesnt matter, the book was written by human, no matter what book it is, the bible, koran (sp?), book of morman etc. All organized religion is created by man, and man is flawed. So how can we base our lives on something that is automaticly flawed. It seams stuped and ill-logical to me. I am all for spirituality, and if u feel there is a god, and he/she/it talks to you, and it brings good to you and your life, im glad for you. but you can not opress others by forcing your beliefs on them. that will bring only trouble. many ignorant christians say, 'these muslims that hijacked to planes are insaine, thay think they will be rewarded'. what i see when i look at them is people who truly believe 100 percent in their faith. that is pretty amazing. (im not at all saying what they did is right, i think killing anyone for any reason is wrong.) but there are alot of 'christians' that would never die for their faith, because they dont actually believe in it, because it is flawed and they know it.
Everyone should take their own spiritual journy, and if u want to talk to others and discuss your expirences about it with them. good, discussion is good, the transfer of ideas from one to another is how we evolve as a comunity. but to create factions of these comunities, start wars against others just becuase u disagree w/ someone, thats just wrong and goes against anything any religion should teach. and that is love. |
Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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Xar666
Yak Addict
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 2:34:34 PM
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 3:35:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pcbTIM
quote:
Originally posted by Fleabass76
But whatever, I'm a skeptical athiest.
Haha.......I just found that redundant. After all, you don't meet very many optomistic aethists.
Yeah, good point.... |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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pcbTIM
Alien Abductee
USA
6501 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 8:26:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jude
So how can we base our lives on something that is automaticly flawed. It seams stuped and ill-logical to me.
I don't want to pry, but I think that this is an illogical statement. After all, almost anything that we use nowadays is man-made, which makes it flawed. The best example I can think of is science. 500 years ago, everyone knew that the earth was flat, and 300 years ago, everyone knew that the earth was the center of the universe. However, so much nowadays is based on our modern assumptions which may or may not actually be true. But, I guess I can see your point of view towards the religious aspect since none of it can be proven. D'oh! I just refuted my argument. Ignore this post. |
Gay marriage killed the dinosaurs. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2003 : 8:47:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fleabass76
...there are things in there that science clearly explains now.
I'm intrigued. Can you give some examples from your reading? |
teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 4:10:13 PM
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It is impossible to be an atheist. by definition an atheist is one who does not believe that God exists. There is no way to prove that there is no God and just by looking around and seeing that others have found Him must lead one to know that He must be out there.
But it is not enough to simply believe in God. Even the devil himself believes in God. God wants a relationship with you. And the only way to have this relationship is through belief in Jesus Christ.
If Atheism is right and there is no God and no heaven, then when we die, there is nothing and we all have the same fate...but if there is a God who revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ who died for all man's sins, then when we die, i am going to heaven.
i think we can all see the wisest bet... |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 4:15:32 PM
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| First, Welcome GRock! I don't have time to answer any of your statements, I do, BTW believe in God, but don't feel the pressure to be "saved" so to speak. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 4:29:27 PM
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I was a lot like you when it comes to this. it's good that you believe that there is a God. He is pretty cool. problem is that He wants you (and all of us) to know Him. I totally believe you are out there. that doesn't mean we have a friendship or that i know you or anything.
read the bible on your own. maybe go to an evangelical church with a preacher that preaches from the bible and uses it a lot. make it clear that you are searching for the truth and don't want anything crammed down your throat. and you'll find it. i encourage you to look for truth.
if you believe in God, you could even pray that he lead you to the truth. it's worth a shot... |
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Dickey500
Chatterbox
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 4:45:23 PM
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| That was horrible logic, G. There is no proof that God exists - and no proof that he doesn't exist - therefore, believers and athesists stand on the same soapbox with equal arguments. Anything that was "created" by God can just as easily be dismissed as chance. Bold statements about the presence or absence of God are nothing more than belief gone awry. The bottom line is this: if you think there is a God, and this thought comforts you and helps you through life, congrats...but to say that those who believe in nothing are wrong,is unfounded and intolerant. If there is a God, and he's as cool as the Bible says, then He'll forgive me for using the mind that He gave me. Remember, the Bible's just a collection of stories written by men...no more valid as a guide to life than Aesop's Fables. |
"All of us contain Music & Truth, but most of us can't get it out." - Mark Twain |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 5:12:24 PM
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| I believe in Dog |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 5:39:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by victorwootenfan
Well there's evolution and creationalism. In my opinion you can say that god created everything with evolution, that science is the gods' "workshop." kinda like they tinker with what's going on, instead of poof, it just happens. but that's just what i think, so neither opinions contradict each other. adam represents early man, and 1 day equals a few million years, etc..
I believe they still call it the THEORY of evolution... Creationists and Evolutionists also stand on equal but opposite soap boxes.
teri |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 5:58:14 PM
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quote:
believers and athesists stand on the same soapbox with equal arguments.
I've been a bit too busy to post much recently... but I just wanted to chime in that insinuating that there is a false dichotomy between bible beaters and athiests is brilliant. I've never thought of it that way. |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 9:03:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GRock
I was a lot like you when it comes to this. it's good that you believe that there is a God. He is pretty cool. problem is that He wants you (and all of us) to know Him. I totally believe you are out there. that doesn't mean we have a friendship or that i know you or anything.
read the bible on your own. maybe go to an evangelical church with a preacher that preaches from the bible and uses it a lot. make it clear that you are searching for the truth and don't want anything crammed down your throat. and you'll find it. i encourage you to look for truth.
if you believe in God, you could even pray that he lead you to the truth. it's worth a shot...
I believe in gods, and whatnot, i'm the pagan of the group. i don't believe in the devil, i think that's a screwed up way the catholics made the horned god appear to be(God of the Hunt). I read the bible, as well as other religious texts and writings, and i don't see millions of buddhists preists burning in hell for eternity because they haven't heard the "good word" of christ. Don't get me wrong, I love the sermon on the mount, as much as i love the battlefield scene with Arjuna, or the stories of the olden pagan mysteries. They're all equal in my book. |
www.myspace.com/smileymnbass
http://itunes.apple.com/us/preorder/quartet-art/id423870767
www.mattsmiley.blogpost.com |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 10:25:51 AM
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All other religions rely on man doing good works to move to a higher realm or to be reunited with God. they are man-ianities. But Christ said He was the son of God. He backed it up with miracles and fulfilled (sp?) hundreds of phrophesies.
and don't say Christ was just a "Good Moral Teacher", cuz no moral teacher would teach that he was God and that he was the only way to God, if he truly wasn't. that's not moral. He was either God in the flesh or something far worse, but i see nothing to make me think He was evil. and that only leaves one option...
Again, i encourage your pursuits of truth. thats why i am still reading my Bible. and didn't stop at just becoming a believer. you have to pursue the truth and cling to what is good...
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 10:37:41 AM
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quote:
origianl post by victorwootenfan
I read the bible, as well as other religious texts and writings, and i don't see millions of buddhists preists burning in hell for eternity because they haven't heard the "good word" of christ.
The bible says that the word of God is written on everyones heart. i think that that when someone realizes they are sinful and knows they need help to take that sin away then they will go to heaven and meet God, even if they haven't heard of Jesus. i don't think this is very likely to happen, though. that is why there are so many people going on missions trips to other countries to tell them about Jesus and stuff.
but i do think that when someone has heard of Jesus and that he died for our sins and rejects Him that that person will not go to heaven. but will be eternaly seperated from God in hell. and that sucks. you think it's bad here on earth where the love of God still shines through. man... |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:23:37 AM
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An interesting thing to think about is whether people are born with morals or they're developed by surroundings. Does a newborn child know right from wrong? I find myself coming back to that one a lot. Ties in with the "some people are just born evil" argument.
James |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Bustoff
Chatterbox
145 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:47:43 AM
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My friend is an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac that lies awake at night pondering this question:
"Is there a Dog?" |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:25:03 PM
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quote:
but i do think that when someone has heard of Jesus and that he died for our sins and rejects Him that that person will not go to heaven. but will be eternaly seperated from God in hell. and that sucks. you think it's bad here on earth where the love of God still shines through. man...
so fallowing your logic, which is the same as most christians, catholics extremly, is that if i am a good person and i am. i have never killed anyone, i lead a good life, help friends and family out, etc etc, but i dont claim jesus as my savior, then i will burn for all eternity in hell fire.
then if a man were to kill hundreads of people, then while in jail found christ, became his lord and savior, expresed remorse for what he did, then he will bask in the glory that is gods love, up in heven.
im sorry, but a religion that says someone who is good, but thinks differently deserves to be punnished more then someone who has wronged, but thinks in favor of their religion. well im sorry, but thats messed up.
quote:
The bible says that the word of God is written on everyones heart. i think that that when someone realizes they are sinful and knows they need help to take that sin away then they will go to heaven and meet God, even if they haven't heard of Jesus. i don't think this is very likely to happen, though. that is why there are so many people going on missions trips to other countries to tell them about Jesus and stuff.
now with this you have to think back to lets say 1.5K years ago. now there are many religions in the world at the time, lets go w/ shintoist for this example. (japanese religion). and they are usualy well ballanced w/ nature, lead good lives (except for most of the wars that were going on, but not like christians never killed in the name of their god). so these people in japan that lead good lives, never get the word of god to them becuase of the technology at the time doesnt allow them. so w/o claiming jesus as their savior, they go to hell.
also what about the peopel before jesus, they sure cant claim him as their lord and or savior.
also i really hate it when christians say we are born sinful. whoops sorry i was born, my bad. Im not going to apalogize for being human, i think its just a way to scare people into conforming to others beliefs, to create an order, and a world view from someone elses eyes. I would rather, and rather enjoy, looking at the world from my eyes.
The truth is that we will never know on earth if there is a god or not. Unless s/he shows up and beats the crap out of who ever is anoying it at the time, (GW o please o please). So i think that we need to focus on the lives that we are living now, live in the moment, and enjoy it. Not to constantly worry about what we do, and force othres gods on people. Im not saying that all christians do this, i have alot of respect for religious figures that have spent their entire lives researching history and religion. And they search for knowladge, which is great. becuase we are all ignorant children w/o said knoladge, and history will repeat itself.... now i must go to the gulf now and get rid of sadam.
This is Saint Jude saying good bye, 1-23-1993 |
Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:25:41 PM
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| Kids are mean. they'll lie cheat and steal. two years old and i see kids picking fights at daycare. it's sad really... |
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:34:49 PM
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i belive that enviroment will shape how a person thinks and acts. Thats how rasism is kept going througout the years. if u look at little kids, they will sit and play with eachother no matter what skin color. but after their parents teach the dont like this or that people, then they change.
for everyone, every little thing that has happened to you shapes who you are, and how u think or act. If a kid is boared at school, the cracks a joke at the teacher, the kids laugh, so he does it again, more laughs, so now he just wants to be a wise ass to get postive attention from his peers.
Its all cause and effect.
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Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:36:43 PM
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There really isn't that much in the bible about people that have never heard of Jesus and what happens to them. I know people like Moses and old testament Jews put their faith in God that he would provide a savior. so even though they were before Jesus they still put their faith in Him.
There are plenty of catholics who don't truly believe in the grace of God. they are "good" and they go to church but that's not the way to heaven. See the thing of it is that it doesn't matter how "good" you are. everyone is welcome. Heaven is not for people who are "good" but for people who put their faith in God and accept salvation. jesus said He was THE way.
And i want to make clear that i don't claim a "religion". only that i have a living relationship with God, that is very real. and i am just looking to introduce people. |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:40:36 PM
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quote:
All other religions rely on man doing good works to move to a higher realm or to be reunited with God
Not necessarily. "Sin" is carried out all the time in the name of a higher power. It seems that it would be quite contradictory to say "Thou shalt not kill" ... "that is unless you're doing it for me, god... and then it's cool." Think about all the bloodshed that has come in the name of god, or Allah, or in the name of Jesus. It's pretty hard to look at something like the crusades, and objectively be able to say that the seemingly endless murder was righteous or even justified.
quote:
But Christ said He was the son of God. He backed it up with miracles and fulfilled (sp?) hundreds of phrophesies.
Not to completely discredit the bible... but it's a book that is several thousand years old and must be thought of as such. It's a reality that people have been telling grand stories since the birth of language. Think about how much must have changed from its inception to its passing between generation and generation. What we see now could be more the word of John the blacksmith, 3 generations removed from those that walked the Earth with Jesus, than of Jesus himself. As for miracles... people were much simpler, and frankly, much dumber 2000 years ago. If one were to see something totally simple by today's standards, such as fireworks, they may have interpreted it as a miracle back then. Then, again realize that 2000 years separated with storied embellishment, hopping up and down on one foot may have become turning water to wine.
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and don't say Christ was just a "Good Moral Teacher", cuz no moral teacher would teach that he was God and that he was the only way to God, if he truly wasn't. that's not moral.
Why not? That would be quite a way of getting attention... and furthermore, of gaining followers. To give someone credit for being the son of god because they SAY so is frankly just gullibility.
quote:
i think that that when someone realizes they are sinful and knows they need help to take that sin away then they will go to heaven and meet God, even if they haven't heard of Jesus.
I am in no way trying to be argumentative, because I know that BELIEFS are very touchy, so please don't take any of this as being such. But from a purely rational standpoint, have you ever considered the mere possibility that Christianity doesn't have it all right? What if Muslims are right? What if Buddhists are right? Then again, what if nobody is right?
quote:
i don't think this is very likely to happen, though. that is why there are so many people going on missions trips to other countries to tell them about Jesus and stuff.
That stems along the issue of free will. I know contradictions can be found throughout the bible... which, I must say, seems that a book written by the divine, all-knowing, eternal lord himself might be free of such a human error as contradiction. But as a contradiction, why would god give man free will and then turn his back on those that don't do what he supposedly wants them to do? If god wanted every man to accept Jesus, wouldn't it bee instinctual? With the idea of free will, hell seems, frankly... childish.
quote:
but i do think that when someone has heard of Jesus and that he died for our sins and rejects Him that that person will not go to heaven. but will be eternaly seperated from God in hell.
What do we have to prove this other than a bunch of MEN saying, "Take our word for it!" I am not so trusting in my fellow man when it comes to something like that, which in all the lifetimes of all the men that have walked the Earth, cannot be proven.
It must at least pique your curiosity to think about science and how it relates to religion. Science essentially discredits the beginning book of the bible with regards to the creation of the world. That is, of course, unless god created the world... and then waited 4 BILLION years to put man onto the planet. The bible doesn't seem to take account for the huge amount of time that the planet was filled with volcanic activity, dinosaurs... and oh yeah... that 100,000 years that it took man to evolve into what he is today. Unless all this "science" stuff is just hogwash, then either the bible is 'open to interpretation,' or there is some pretty bad storytelling going on there. And if the beginning of the story can be disproved undeniably, why then, are we to believe that the rest of it is any more accurate? It's all just food for thought.
I hope to hear opinions from anyone who may disagree... but I would hope to have replies with thought. Not just a cop-out of "because god says so" or something to that effect.
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 2:21:23 PM
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wow silky, i don't even know where to start. but i'll try and answer your questions. first though, i say thank you for not attacking me. Christians can really get harrassed a lot for voicing their opinions and it's nice to have so many ratioal people here to hear me out.
I do not advocate the crusades!! i think it is wrong to kill innocent people just cuz they don't agree with some beliefs.
And in due fairness there are very few contradictions in the Bible. Someone once said that there were and was discredited and still this belief that the bible has a lot of contradictions is out there. if you have something specific i will look at it. they are finding now that when the bible mentioned a city and it didn't appear to have existed, well now they are doin archiological digs and finding these places just as the Bible had said.
Also most of the Historical books of the old testament were written by Moses who was right there as all this was happening. most of the bible isn't handed down stories but of eye witness accounts. at least 2 of the gospels were written in the first century and only the book of John was certainly written in the 2nd.
there are prophecies fortelling wars that were to happen 598 years later that whammo happened over in western asia to the very day. and the early manuscripts are dated to before the war.
i have considered other views but none of them are so consice and reasonable. it makes sence to believe the world and univers was made by God. other wise you have to believe it was all chance on the order of 1 in 10^7000 and that is being generous with the numbers.
Free will says that God made man with the ability to obey Him or to turn his own way. otherwise when we turn to love God it would be an empty forced love and God wanted us to be more than "robots to do his bidding". God wants us to CHOOSE Him. that's what he desires. not that we exercise free will indescrimenetly. and i believe it is instinctual to choose God. everyone is looking for God and every can tell by looking over the mountain top that there is something. and really if you come t a bible with an open mind seeking God, it just clicks.
as far as the beginning of the "story" goes. It's easy to think that God may have instantaneously made the world to appear as though it had an ancient past. this may be why there are so many theories about big bangs and the spring effect or the discrepency between the age of the moon and the earth and the sun. evolution takes more faith to believe in than any religion. really there is no evidence of missing links or test tube life forms created by science. life is pretty tricky to create and i don't think it could both start or progress by accident.
i concede that like the issue of people that haven't heard of Jesus, i don't have much to go on in the Bible about this. Really Genesis Chapter 1 is only a quick chapter that describes the beginning of it all so they don't go into great detail. but maybe this is where that free will comes in and we can think up ways that it might have happened. Keep an open mind to it.
there are some things that we can't ever uderstand because God didn't give us the ability. like forever. the idea of forever can not be grasped by a man who may live 100 years tops. even 4 billion years is difficult to truly understand. and there are somethings that God wants us to decide. Whether to have turkey or ham for lunch. and on that note i am gonna go exercise some free will and get a bite to eat. |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 5:25:57 PM
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quote:
first though, i say thank you for not attacking me. Christians can really get harrassed a lot for voicing their opinions and it's nice to have so many ratioal people here to hear me out.
That's why most of us stick around here... we tend to discuss rather than attack. You really only see people starting to have words when someone comes in and breaks that line.
I am glad that you said that you've thought about other things, but chose what you did because it works best for you... that is how it should be, no matter what other people think. While I don't share your view, your last point about humans not being able to comprehend certain concepts is something that I have had many discussions about with my friends. It's a great thing to ponder what sorts of things may go unnoticed because we lack the capacity to do so. |
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Dickey500
Chatterbox
USA
144 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 5:29:09 PM
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I apologize for lack of a name here, but I seem to recall an experiment performed this century that supported spontaneous generation of organic matter. A scientist put a mess of inorganic material in a beaker with water and zapped it with electricity...he managed to produce some of the building blocks of organic life. This is one piece of evidence that an ocean filled with lifeless matter could have been struck by lightning and started the slow progression to where we are today.
Please remember, there is no PROOF that there is any higher being. If technology were based on the logic that religious fanatics use - we'd all still be living in caves. |
"All of us contain Music & Truth, but most of us can't get it out." - Mark Twain |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:36:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Silky The Pimp
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
All other religions rely on man doing good works to move to a higher realm or to be reunited with God
Not necessarily. "Sin" is carried out all the time in the name of a higher power. It seems that it would be quite contradictory to say "Thou shalt not kill" ... "that is unless you're doing it for me, god... and then it's cool." Think about all the bloodshed that has come in the name of god, or Allah, or in the name of Jesus. It's pretty hard to look at something like the crusades, and objectively be able to say that the seemingly endless murder was righteous or even justified.
As a fellow Christian, let me restate GRock's claim: "According to the New Testament, there is no deed a person can do that will get them into Heaven." The way I read it, his claim focuses on what God requires of man, as written in the New Testament. (If I've got it wrong, GRock, let me know.)
Silky, I believe your reply focuses on what man BELIEVES God requires of him, which is an entirely different thing. There's nothing to indicate that any bloodshed caused by MAN in the name of God, Jesus, or even Allah was actually endorsed by a higher being. (I'll limit this last sentence to apply only to A.D. since I was talking about the New Testament.)
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teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:57:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Silky The Pimp
The bible doesn't seem to take account for the huge amount of time that the planet was filled with volcanic activity, dinosaurs... and oh yeah... that 100,000 years that it took man to evolve into what he is today.
I believe that evolution occurs on a small scale, but not that one species can evolve into another, as was posited by Darwin. With all the millions of fossils that have been found why is there not one single fossil find that indicates verifiable transition from one species to another?
I recently learned that there are two "flavors" of creationists:
Young-earth creationists regard the universe and the earth to have been created some six to ten thousand years ago within a six 24-hour-day period, with a global flood in Noah’s day producing major earth-wide geological effects (known as “flood geology”).
Old-earth creationists accepts the time scale of billions of years, and regards many of God’s creative acts as taking place over long periods of time and involving natural processes as well as supernatural acts, like the creation of man and all species animal life.
I've always shied away from the "young-earth" beliefs since there is so much evidence that the world has been here a long long time. But I didn't like the idea of evolution either, so I just avoided the subject for years. Now I'm going look into the "old-earth" beliefs and see what I find out...
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teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 01:56:41 AM
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Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
I have done over a thousand post mortems on various species of animals during my years in research. I've also done a fair share of surgeries. Every time I would open up an animal I was amazed at the complexity of the creature I was working on. I also spent countless hours looking through microscopes at blood and tissue samples.I can in no way believe all life was created here on earth by one single celled organism and developed over time. (origin of the species/evolution)
It absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt confirmed my belief in God. Having said that, I am not fond of organized religion. I believe in God, I do believe Jesus was the son of God but is not God himself.
In other words I worship God, but not Jesus. I also believe in the "holy spirit" if you will. A force throughout the universe which I know exists because I feel it every day.
I don't really believe in hell.....fire and brimstone. I don't believe being Christian or any other religion gets one a place in the after life.(heaven) I don't even care about heaven. I figure thats up to God what happens to me after death on earth. My concern is living my life the way my conscience and faith directs. I try to follow the 10 commandments which believe me is no easy task.
I believe in doing for others and helping people out, but doing so without making a big deal about it or drawling attention to myself.
The greatest joys I have experienced outside of having my children have been when I helped people, especially complete strangers. The best part is that only myself, God and sometimes the person or people I help know what I have done. That's the way I like it.
I get teased a lot at work for always smiling. I tell them I smile because I'm happy and that's because I choose to be that way. If I die today I would have no major regrets. I tried to always live each day the best I can. I enjoyed my kids at each stage of their lives and I am so glad I held them as much and as long as I did.
My daughter said to me at Christmas this year, "You know mom, we had some great Christmases, but mostly we had great "every days"." And we did.(still do) This is what religion is all about, the every days, not just Sundays or holidays. Religion is life, not a service one attends. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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SpaceMonkey
Chatterbox
315 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 02:28:22 AM
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"If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
Anybody know what that's from? Hint: a movie.
For some reason, when I think about organized religion I think about the poor, dispossesed people of the world...there are, uh, billions of them. Anyway, have this funny feeling that religion is a way of keeping the have-nots from fucking with the haves. I mean, if you tell people, "don't worry about shit, it's all in God's hands" and the people you tell that to are relatively uneducated and unaware about the world's power structure, and they also happen to be devout Christians, Muslims, etc., it'd be pretty easy to get away with shit while they're waiting for the second coming and all that stuff. Once you have a mass of people following that train of thought, they seem less willing to do anything for themselves in terms of being pro-active in social movements...especially when it comes to opposing governments, etc. Basically, it's what "Get Up, Stand Up" is all about...not relying on gods you can't prove exist to make the world a better place...it's YOUR job! |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 07:50:20 AM
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Hey Dickey, that experiment you are talking about has a few details you left out. it was done under extreme pressure and very acidic conditions. when the "soup" was zapped it produced a whole bunch of stuff but it did produce one amino acid (the building block of protein)this one amino acid was quickly decomposed (on the order of a few hours) because of the other byproducts produce. no other amino acids have ever been made except this one. also if you have ever heard of chirality, it is the property of having handedness. like how the left and right hands are mirror images but can not be made to look like eachother. (yeah organic chem) well all amino acids used in proteins for life are the L-type amino acids. i believe this is an indication of how God tends to leave his signiture on things. when this experiment was done both types were produced.
I think God does allow some evil to happen to give us a view of how good other things are. i don't believe God punishes us. The bible says that God is love. this is quite a concept since Hell would be the state of not having any contact with God and therefore no love. i think hell is just a place of pure evil and absence of all that is good.
PJK, Jesus said he was God. He was also sinless. He also claimed to be the Son of God. I don't really think it is an option to only believe some of what jesus said otherwise you have to wonder whether you are believing one of the lies or one of the truths. it really is all or nothing. Religion is not just a once a week thing but an ever moment thing. And there is only one way to get to e with God and that is to accept Jesus as your Savior. and not like to save from hell or death or whatever, but to save us from not being with Him.
and spacemonkey, God calls us as his followers to prepare the way. Like of John the Baptist came before Jesus to tell everyone that He was coming. so it is our responsibility to make the world better. some environmentalists think that cuz christians believe the book of Genesis that says we are to have dominion over all animals, that we are allowed to destroy the planet as we please. that is not the case. dominion means responsibility. we gotta take responsibility. we are not to just sit back. we trust that even when little David had to fight big bad goliath, he knew he could do it cuz God was giving him the power. It is called a Body of believers. we are to be His hands and feet and He is the Head. thats just a small anology to see it better. |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 3:29:58 PM
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| GRock, where did Jesus ever say he WAS God????????? Also I beg to differ but I don't remember him ever saying he was sinless either..I do believe he lived a cleaner life then the rest of us but I don't believe he was perfect. I know you don't feel that way and I have no problem with that, but don't expect me to agree with you either. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 4:10:48 PM
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| Well before this takes a bad turn, let me say, you should all be commended for being able to have this discussion without attacking one another. Respecting each others opinions and comments and offering up your own. The responsible exchange of ideas, concepts and beliefs. I think it says alot about our little message board community. Imagine this discussion somewhere like nancies.org. |
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy
"THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS A CRUEL AND SHALLOW MONEY TRENCH-- A LONG PLASTIC HALLWAY WHERE THIEVES AND PIMPS RUN FREE AND GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS. THERE'S ALSO A NEGATIVE SIDE..." -Hunter S. Thompson |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 4:25:56 PM
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Thanks Fluff! And thanks to Pam for a good question; I had to look it up. Here is what I found:
John 10:24-30 The Jewish religious leaders surrounded him and said, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus replied, "I told you and you do not believe. The deeds I do in my Father's name testify about me. But you refuse to believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father's hand. The Father and I are one."
Also, John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
A few verses later, it is explained that Jesus was (is) the Word:
John 1:14-17 -- Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory-the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. John testified about him and cried out, "This one was the one about whom I said, 'He who comes after me is greater than I am, because he existed before me.'" For we have all received from his fullness one gracious gift after another. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ. |
teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 4:57:45 PM
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Wow Teri, one thing is true....Ask and you shall receive! Thanks!
It still doesn't change how I feel, because I've believed the way I do for as long as I can remember.
My birth was an accident, my mom made sure I knew this. When you grow up believing you weren't even supposed to be here, you tend to look extra hard for purpose and self worth. I never have felt a great deal of self worth, but I did find purpose in helping people. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 5:39:39 PM
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I realized that Pam had two questions, so I went to find if there was a place Jesus claimed to be sinless. If anyone is interested, I didn't find that exact phrase, but he did say a) nobody could prove him guilty of sin; and b) he was always pleasing to God. If we assume that sin is displeasing to God the latter implies that Jesus never sinned.
a) John 8:46-47 "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
b) John 8:28-29 "So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know who I am and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.'"
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teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 5:46:33 PM
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I was raised Catholic (at least lapse-Catholic), attended a Catholic grade school where they forced Bible stories and religous hocus-pocus down my throat. When I attended Catholic high school, I assumed it would all be the same, but all of the theology teachers there (even the priests) took a very fair an balanced view of religion. Instead of insisting that creationism occured (which I believe it most certainly DIDN'T), they would present the facts on both sides and let use choose our own path. Of course, this was all negated with forced attendance at mass, but that's a whole different story.
I've had a problem with church since as long as I can remember. Some of my earliest thoughts are being a 4-year-old boy in church fantasizing that when I grow up I'm going to own a construction company and have the ability to demolish the churches in my hometown a wrecking ball. I've had priests lie to me, any question I ever raised was answered with "well, if you had faith...", and I was appalled and disgusted with the workings of Roman Catholicism. As a sidenote: it is my prediction that Catholicism will be almost non-existent in the US in two generations.
I've tried to find God many times as a youth, and every time I came up empty handed. It could be that I'm a man of science, and have a pre-programmed issue with blind faith. I came to the conclusion at a young age that organized religion was created (and still exists) out of the ignorance of the people who NEED to fill up a void in their life with something. I'm not saying most people are ignorant nowadays (but I will off the record  ), but 2000 years ago people were pretty stupid. I've always imagined how much power I would have if I could simply build a time machine and go back 500 years with a laser pointer and a bic lighter...I could say I was Jesus (hell, I'm white enough!). When people go through traumatic situations or lose something of great importance the need to fill the void, and I believe that void is filled with alcohol, drugs, and Jesus (in that order). Most of the people I know that have "found Jesus" generally found him after a traumatic event (or string thereof) and are usually borderline-psychotic with their passion and faith(I believe having a co-dependant relationship with something you've never seen constitutes pyschosis). I agree with some of the other posters on this thread in saying that I believe that there is some force that ties us all together and when we die we have "access" to it (for an interesting read do a google on Edgar Casey).
In high school I had an epiphany...we were discussing what "hell" was in class. The priest teaching the class (who was also in an order of Monks and a very intelligent and pious man) didn't try to convince us that "hell" is fire, brimstone, burning sulphur lake, etc. He explained that "Hell" was total separation from God, in other words God stops sending his love-vibes and it is supposed to be the most miserable and scary feeling imaginable. But it was at that moment that I realized I had never once felt or experienced a love-vibe from God, and that I was already as far removed and separated as an earth-bound human could possibly be, so my life was technically already hell.
On a lighter note, if I believe in anything it's gonna be reincarnation...that way I get to come back and fuck teenagers. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 7:49:52 PM
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| The thing I don't understand about reincarnation is this: if you don't remember your past lives, how are you supposed to know what you're supposed to be doing better in this one? |
teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 9:29:15 PM
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| i think the memories from past lives are to be subconsious, intuition if u will. im not sure if i believe in reincarnation, sounds like a good deal though, gettin more then one shot at life, (saint jude starts playing crazy german techno music and starts running.... (well see if anyone gets that reference)) |
Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 10:06:52 PM
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| Nope, didn't get the reference. I'll keep thinking... |
teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
(Micro)Blog * Photo Album
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 12:19:53 PM
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| Reincarnation scares me. I tend to think that a lot of organized religion boils down to scare tactics. I happen to be a Christian, but that's just me. I couldn't deal with catholocism because it just seemed more about punishing and fund raising than the true spirit of God. Nothing against Catholics at all...half of my family is Catholic and some of my best friends are Catholic. I think that without the fear of God, people would certainly be more immoral and that some religions take that a bit too far. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 2:55:49 PM
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Reading over this made me wonder, did Fluffy think my post was going to make this thread take a turn for the worst???? Geeze, I sure didn't mean to sound harsh if I came off that way. I just really wanted to know and Teri, wonderful person that she is, took the time to look it up and answer me. I really appreciated that!
BTW Teri it occured to me because of your efforts that it has been quite some time since I read the Bible and that I really should pick it up again. My Bible was given to me as a child and with no disrespect intended, it is full of highlighted pages. I used to highlight whatever I felt was especially important to me at the time and I would put the date in the margin. My Bible is in fact a Spritual record as well as a sort of history of my spiritula life.
Maybe just as Jay should lay off the weed I should lay off the posting! hummmm |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2003 : 12:25:18 PM
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quote:
did Fluffy think my post was going to make this thread take a turn for the worst????
Nope.... when in doubt, assume he means well. |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 10:18:06 AM
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I think that no matter whether you are a science minded or touchy feely person, you have to have faith in what you believe. it is impossible to know all the facts and it all takes a bit of faith. and we all have faith in things. like that oncoming traffic will stop at the red light, or that buildings are built to code and won't fall on us when we go inside. these are things we put our faith in everyday. i just thouht it should be noted that if we aren't putting our faith in God then we aren't obstaining from faith but just putting it into other things.
the bible also says in 1 John 4:8, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." so guys (and specifically to therippa), if you have ever felt love at all, that was from God. the love we recieve from God is what gives us the opportunity to love eachother. (and on my sidenote i aggree about the catholic church think we may see the it gone even earlier.)
and with reincarnation i just find it hard to believe that there is no beginning or end or that there is anyone here on earth that is perfect enough and has bettered themselves to be one with God. plus where are all the extra souls coming from. there are more living things in the world today than there used to be so where are all these extras coming from. it just seems far fetched for me. i like something a bit more concrete.
Christ said he was the only way to God. Consider these verses where Christ eliminates alternative ways to God: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me" (John 14:6). "For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). in Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" and then Jesus said in John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" A man could not claim that, Abraham was born thousands of years before Jesus. The wording itself tells us that Jesus was claiming that He was the great I AM, or in other words, God. Jesus told us a whole bunch of times that he was God.
There are many times that other people (both disciples and random people) describe Jesus as perfect (2 Corinthians 5:21, Luke 23:39-41, Luke 23:47, 1 Peter 2:21-22 etc.) but i can't find a specific place other than that one that teri mentioned where he claims it himself. of course in claiming to be God that would be interpretting by the Jews as a claim to be sinless.
No matter what, there is a step of faith involved in what you believe. it's just like that scene in indiana jones where he can't see the bridge to the jewels and so he throws a bit of sand out and sees that there is something there to step on. i hope this board is like that sand for some of us.
And one a personal note, i really like you guys. you all are alright in my book. |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 3:41:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GRock
and with reincarnation i just find it hard to believe that there is no beginning or end or that there is anyone here on earth that is perfect enough and has bettered themselves to be one with God.
I sincerely think that gandhi reached that level. He loved jesus, he loved allah, he loved all the hinduist gods. He was not a "christian" but he was one of the most religious people in the world in the past century. I sincerely believe he reached that level of being one with god, and not born again ever.
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www.mattsmiley.blogpost.com |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 4:23:23 PM
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Where does that sincerity come from? where is the proof that ghandi became one with God, or lived a past life. i might just be missing it but did he claim these things. and is that how he died? i would think that once you "reach a oneness with god" that you would not have to continue living to an earthly death. i just don't see any divine doctrine or any evidence or documentation.
as a beleiver in Christ, i don't put any weight in being religious. or spiritual. or any of that new-age stuff. it all reminds me of oprah. and really being religious and spiritual don't matter. it is a relationship with God that matters.
Luke 13:22-27
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
24He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
in this passage we see people being religious but never knowing Jesus and they are turned away from heaven.
as iam thinking, it is the simplest explanation that is usually correct. i can't remember who said this (someone want to help me out if you know) but the point is that christianity is incredibly simple. i think that is why it makes so much sense to me. |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 4:39:10 PM
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ok i just found another little blurb in a paper i read about religious works and being good and how that works out with heaven.
""Every person is separated from God by their sin and in need of forgiveness. Because God is just as well as loving, we cannot cross this gulf and have a relationship with Him (eternal life) unless the penalty for our sin is paid--eternal death. If God did not judge our sin, He would no longer be just.
Living a good, moral life cannot save a person because good works do not pay the penalty for sin. Just as we can only pay a $50 speeding ticket with $50 (not by baking cookies for the judge or even paying $49), only death can pay the death penalty for sin. Being religious cannot save a person either, because religion does not pay the death penalty.
Fortunately, because of His love for us, God sent Jesus to die in our place to pay the death penalty we deserve for our sin. Jesus chose to do this because He loves us, and was the only one able to do this because He is fully God (He had to be infinite to pay the penalty for more than one person) and He is fully man (He had to be a sinless human to pay the penalty for a sinful human). Jesus is not only sinless, but He is 100% God and 100% man.
On the cross, God judged Jesus for our sin so that we wouldn't have to be. That's why He is the only way to God--only Jesus was willing and able to die for us to pay our death penalty, thus providing forgiveness for our sins. No one other religios leader has done this; no one else could have done this.
So now there are two options. Either a person can pay this penalty themselves--and so not be saved--or Jesus can pay it for them--and be saved. In both ways, God is just because the penalty is paid. The decision is ours to make, and all we need to do is accept God's offer of forgiveness in Jesus. Either we pay the penalty, or we trust Jesus to save us and He pays the penalty.
To summarize, we can receive forgiveness and eternal life only through Jesus because only He has taken away our sin and bridged the gulf between us and God. It took His death to pay the penalty for our sin. If there had been any other way, Jesus would not have died (Gal 2:21). Considering the sacrifice Jesus made, we should not think it is unfair that there is only one way, but we should be glad that there is any way at all. ""
keep looking for the truth. for it is out there. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 5:05:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GRock
...it is the simplest explanation that is usually correct. i can't remember who said this (someone want to help me out if you know) but the point is that christianity is incredibly simple.
Occam's Razor: Named for the medieval logician William of Occam, this rule of thumb for deduction states, basically, that the best solution to a problem is most likely the simplest one that explains all the facts.
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teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 5:41:42 PM
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| There is also Morgan's Canon/Law of Parsimony... |
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 5:59:32 PM
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PJK asked: quote:
Reading over this made me wonder, did Fluffy think my post was going to make this thread take a turn for the worst????
Silky answered: quote:
Nope.... when in doubt, assume he means well.
Thanx for the vote of confidence Silky and you are correct. My post could have fallen after any of the above posts. It is the eternal pessimist in me(and having barely survived the Isaac post fiasco)that made me fear that this would at some point have to take a turn for the worst. I am certainly glad and encouraged to have been proven wrong(so far). It is unfortunate that my post just happened to fall after PJK's. Anyway, I am glad to see that this topic is continuing full strength and lots of ideas are being shared and questions are being asked and answered and noone seems to being getting bent out of shape. I wish PJK would be less sensitive to my posts and they are never directed at her in a negative way and if she feels they are, as Silky said,quote:
Nope.... when in doubt, assume he means well.
As I do. |
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy
"THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS A CRUEL AND SHALLOW MONEY TRENCH-- A LONG PLASTIC HALLWAY WHERE THIEVES AND PIMPS RUN FREE AND GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS. THERE'S ALSO A NEGATIVE SIDE..." -Hunter S. Thompson |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 10:11:26 PM
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grock, in my opinion you can not debate for the bible, and prove that it is right or true by quoting from it. sure u can quote from it if u are debating or saying something about or from the bible.
but i dont find it fair that you say all love that everyone feels is only god, no one can prove that what so ever. its like quoting from a pegan bible makes it true just because. im not sayin your point or opinion isnt valid, but i need facts or quotes from outside sources to make me believe one thing or another. sure all opinions are one way or another biast, but the bible is far more biast then lest say...... fox reporting..... (LOL). i think u will know what i mean. but if u are trying to say, this is how my religion feels about the subject then that is kewl. but im trying to make sure your not saying, this is absolutly correct, and to prove it allow me to read from it. |
Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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dirtysloth
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1302 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 10:33:32 PM
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I haven't gotten into this debate because I thought it would eventually go sour, like these topics usually seem to do. But everybody's being adults here so I thought I'd throw in a question just because I don't understand that article Grock posted. It says, "Being religious cannot save a person either, because religion does not pay the death penalty." And also, "Either a person can pay this penalty themselves--and so not be saved--or Jesus can pay it for them--and be saved. In both ways, God is just because the penalty is paid. The decision is ours to make, and all we need to do is accept God's offer of forgiveness in Jesus." I just find that to be contradicting.
And just to throw my beliefs out there... I'm not a religious person, but I certainly do not dismiss the possibility of the existance of God. If there is a god, and an afterlife, I would find it hard to believe that he would turn us away from heaven for rejecting Jesus, because after all what do we have to go by? The words of other men. Even if the bible is the word of God, how do we know that? The words of other men. So that's where faith comes in, some say. But faith in what? God? No... what your fellow men have told you God is to be. I'm not putting faith down... whatever gives a person inner peace in their life is fine by me. But you have to remember there is no way of knowing that the bible is indeed true, you just believe it is, and that's fine. |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 09:35:25 AM
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The bible is actually more accurate than any historical document that exists. i think there are some 60,000 manuscripts of the old testament dating back to the same time that beowulf was written where there are less than like 100 manuscripts of that ancient poem. plus other historical documents coincide with the bible on things like the egyptian plagues and slavery, the locations of cities, etc. there is just a lot of proof that the bible is a very accurate document. the bible is unique in this way. there is more proof that jesus existed and did the things he did than there is that ceasar existed at all. i wish i had my book on this subject but left it at home (i post while at work )
I don't really see the contradiction so, dirtysloth, can you spell it out for me. if you mean that accepting jesus is a religious thing and therefor contradicts that "religion does not pay the death penalty", let me tell you that this is not the case. jesus is a relationship and not a religion. i can't stress that enough. the relationship you have with jesus is unique to you.
and i do believe this is the truth for everyone. my beliefs don't permit me to accept that everyone has there own way to heaven. i am not saying that i don't accept people for not having my beliefs but i do believe i am right. that is not to say i am conceited or think myself better than anyone. only that i am confident in what i know.
and it's ok if you are too and i very much enjoy hearing others opinions on this whole topic.
do you all think there are universal truths? like absolutes?
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dirtysloth
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1302 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 11:42:40 AM
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quote:
I don't really see the contradiction so, dirtysloth, can you spell it out for me. if you mean that accepting jesus is a religious thing and therefor contradicts that "religion does not pay the death penalty", let me tell you that this is not the case. jesus is a relationship and not a religion. i can't stress that enough. the relationship you have with jesus is unique to you.
Yes, I see a relationship with Jesus as a religious thing. I understand that it is unique for every individual, but I'm not quite sure how that doesn't mean that it is not still religious.
quote:
re·li·gion
n.
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I would think that a person would have to meet one of these qualities before they can say they have a relationship with Jesus. You have to "believe in a supernatural power" first.
I also understand that the Bible coincides with known historical occurences, but the answer to that isn't necessarily that it's true. It can be rooted in fact without actually being true.
I wouldn't say I believe in absolutes. I believe in everything and nothing at the same time... who am I to say what's right? I have my beliefs, but that's all they are. I could be wrong.
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Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 12:15:46 PM
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I JUST joined the Tim Reynold's group, and I am stoked about this topic. It's also really refreshing to see that people are being respectful of all the different opinions. It's one of those "no, no" issues to talk about because people are quick to judge... but this forum throws that concept down.
I was raised Catholic, private school and everything (and thanks to Brittany Spears for making us school girls look so damn good)... but my mother's "hobby" is studying philosophy and has traveled far and wide studying religions. In my second year of college I was talking to a sleezy professor about a belief that he told his hundreds of students that I thought was far from true. I shared, in brief about my mother's interest, and he asked if what she found was all bullshit (because apparently those who study several religions all find it to be bullshit  )... and getting to my point... what my mother found in great detail, and what I have found in not as much detail, is that in a BROAD sense most religions are seeking the same thing. They just have different names for it. (ever notice how all ancient religions have a flood story???)
When I was 17 and moving away from home I was talking to a girl I worked with who has had a life from hell, who, and I hope she knows, has been my spiritual mentor. She told me, it's not about religion, it's about a relationship. DING DING DING.... I was forever changed.... I think that whatever gets you there... whether it's shaking in churches or as my roommate loves to do, smoke a ton of pot and carry deep conversations about how great God is, just do what you gotta do.
Sorry this is so long! |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 2:01:37 PM
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First off Miss sorrel, i must welcome you here. i too was a first time poster on this subject. and i too was surprised at the civility of the board.
For the flood story to be a part of many many religion's history, it only points that it is most probably true. people the world over recorded this event. and i think the bible's explanation makes the most sense of the catastrophy.
and i aggree that knowing other religions can ground you in what you believe by knowing the options that are out there. in my "journey" i have explored a lot of ways of thinking. and my belief in christ makes the most sense and leaves the least amount of subjectiveness. and i guess christianity is a "religion" but not in the traditional sense. i always see religions as a long list of rules. and things one must do to get to heaven but christianity is about humbly asking for mercy and letting Jesus do the dirty work of meeting the requirements for heaven. i think this is what the author of that article meant. that it is not about the religious part. the relationship with jesus is so much bigger than just a set of laws and beliefs.
quote:
I think that whatever gets you there... whether it's shaking in churches or as my roommate loves to do, smoke a ton of pot and carry deep conversations about how great God is, just do what you gotta do.
I think the disagreements about this is that many have a broad veiw of where "there" is. i think there are many ways to get to a place where you feel spiritual and tingly all over and happy and joyful. but i think that when "there" is refering to heaven and the ultimate joy of being with God, well, there is only one way.
and i'm gonna save my comments about the absolutes as i want to hear some more opinoins (and my lunch hour is over). |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 4:12:40 PM
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I'm goin with miss sorrell's here. i like the belief in "boatism." Lot's of people are boatist but just don't know it. Boatism, as my friend defined has 2 rules,
1. do whatever floats your boat
2. tolerance for other opinions and beliefs and religions
Without tolerance there is violence and war, i.e. india/pakistan, the crusades, the witch hunts, israel/palestine, and the list goes on. i just wish people would stop trying to convert other people! i like to be left alone! |
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http://itunes.apple.com/us/preorder/quartet-art/id423870767
www.mattsmiley.blogpost.com |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 5:23:36 PM
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a friend of mine use to say this alot and i never really understood what he was talking about untill years later when i became a christian. he use d to say "i am just a beggar trying to tell some other beggars where i found the bread" and that's all i'll do. i won't say "come here jerky and eat this m-f-ing bread". no no. all i'm gonna say is that there is some bread over here.
mr. vicotrwootenfan, I like the boatist philosophy. a lot. i couldn't agree more. if more people practiced just a bit of tolerance this would be a much better world. It's like we have a microcosm of a Utopian society right here on the TR message board.
and the whole converting thing is whacked out. i agree. so many people keep score as to how many people they "converted" (as if it is because of them and not God that anyone would accept Him). see i don't consider myself to be trying to "convert" anyone. i'm just introducing people to my Friend. at that point it is between them and Jesus. |
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Ccr152
Chatterbox
145 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 7:36:46 PM
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last thursday i was walking back from class. it was probably 15 degrees out and it was snowing, and i was walking with my head down and i heard this man yelling. i looked up and there's this guy in the middle of union square, yelling and waving his hands in the air, and telling us (college students) that we are all going to hell. that we (college students) we're people who loved to abuse alcohol and drugs and sex, and the only thing that could save us is finding and befriending jesus. this man was yelling, talking to shit to everyone there, and at the same time asking us to find his religion. now, i am not anti-christian but i had a very strong urge to walk up to that man and just laugh at him.
this is my problem with christianity. somebody mentioned scare tactics before. if i want to find salvation and spiritual harmony, its not going to be because im afraid of what might happen to me otherwise. im sure that jerk in the middle of union square, yelling about salvation in the snow intended to spread the word of god. he was out there thinking he was doign some good, but i bet you 95% of the people who walked past there he was a fucking jackass. and i bet god was up there smacking his forehead and maybe thinking the same thing. i have nothing against christianity, i have nothing against any religion. but a lot of christians (that jerk in the snow, televangelists) are giving the religion a bad stigma.
i just wanted to ask GRock, someone who appears to be a devout and level-headed christian, what he thought about all this. what would you think if you walked past that man, as he told you that you enjoyed getting drunk or high and participating in wild orgies, etc? |
take it easy. http://briefcase.yahoo.com/ccr152
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 8:25:23 PM
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| i'd stand right next to him and start yelling at people for the same reason. except instead of jesus, i'd say their only salvation is to bite the curb. because they only way to cure them is to end it all. |
death to false metal. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 9:36:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ccr152
what would you think if you walked past that man, as he told you that you enjoyed getting drunk or high and participating in wild orgies, etc?
I'm not GRock, but here's my answer...
If I had the courage, I might tell him to look to his own Bible and see if ever there was a time that Jesus himself talked to people in this way. WWJD may be a simple phrase, and a little overused, but I think it can be a useful approach when trying to explain to a fellow Christian where they may be missing the point. Jesus didn't run around yelling tales of fire and brimstone; he showed love and compassion.
The only story I can think of in the gospels that describe Jesus yelling at people is the "Cleansing of the Temple"
Here is the way it was described in Luke 11:15-17... Then they came to Jerusalem. Jesus entered the temple area3 and began to drive out those who were selling and buying in the temple courts. He turned over the tables of the moneychangers and the chairs of those selling doves, and he would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. Then he began to teach them and said, "Is it not written: 'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations?' But you have turned it into a den of robbers!" |
teri
Twittering about the DC adventure since Dec '09...
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 05:53:52 AM
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Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy
"THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS A CRUEL AND SHALLOW MONEY TRENCH-- A LONG PLASTIC HALLWAY WHERE THIEVES AND PIMPS RUN FREE AND GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS. THERE'S ALSO A NEGATIVE SIDE..." -Hunter S. Thompson |
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religion
