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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2004 : 10:52:46 AM
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I have read the Peoples' History of the US and I have read Marx; don't make the assumption that someone that disagrees with you must be uneducated or naive. My opinions may differ from yours, but that doesn't mean that I haven't done my homework. As much as there are obviously great books on these topics, I still prefer to come up with my own "belief system" that merely takes into consideration the opinions of others.
You're saying that poor people pay a greater percentage than rich people? Are you out of your MIND? If you fall under the poverty levels now, you basically get all of your tax money back, come return time. I know, I was there once. I only worked about 2-3 months out of the year and I got an enormous percentage back when I filed my tax returns. Can't remember the exact numbers now, but I did the math on it and I was basically paying about 3% of my check to taxes (both state and federal combined). Now that I'm making a lot more and working full time, I get destroyed with taxes (upwards of 30%). I always claim 0 to get the most taken out of my check possible, and my return is nominal at best.
Have more kids? Here's a tax break. Divorced? That must be rough, here's a tax break. Single parent? Oh, for shame...here's a tax break. Hardworking, middle class, white American male who keeps a steady job, maintains a good family life, goes to church and has 1.5 kids on their way to a university? Muahahaha, yer done.
Communism n. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The fact of the matter is, communism doesn't work...period. I love the concept, it's phenomenal on paper. If we could pull it off, the world would be infinitely better. It's idealistic, and I love that...I'm an idealist. But I'm also a realist. Communism doesn't work for one simple reason: human greed.
I do agree, that we are all capitalists. I never meant to imply that we're heading toward some kind of "red state", because it won't happen. I get pissed at comments like yours about the hard working guy who busts his ass vs. the guy who has a 4 year degree and has a cushy job. I wish we could have a society where the amount of effort you put in was directly reflected in your paycheck, but it just doesn't work that way. In this case, an education costs a LOT of money anymore, and they deserve the higher pay because they shelled out the cash/loan to become a more "important" employee. Work of the mind is just as relevant as work of the body. Then someone will say "well, they didn't pay for it...their daddy did" or whatever. Well, someone along the line earned that money. Take it back 200 years, when there were no cushy desk jobs. Someone had to bust their ass to provide opportunity to the next generation(s). Yes, I realize there are a lot of spoiled brats out there and that the system isn't always fair.
I may come off as a cold hearted right wing guy who doesn't give a shit about people, but I do. I am perfect willing to help people help themselves. Teach someone to fish. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 11:03:40 AM
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| you can't be an idealist and a realist. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 4:31:50 PM
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James I don't have time to re-read my post but I meant to say that middle classs people pay more then the rich percentage wise. There's a good book about the US tax system called America who really pays the taxes(If my memory serves me correctly). LIke you said the average american gets screwed while the poor and the rich pay less and less all the time.
I'm glad you've read Zinn and Marx and all but I never said you didn't it's just most of the people that start using the same logic as you do about stuff never have and don't know shit about it.
At the same time though you say communism doesn't work but how the hell would you know because it's never been tried. It's just like me saying the free-market capitalist system doesn't work because that has also never been tried. Elements of both systems have been enacted in one way or another but a full system has never made it.
Also if you get pissed at comments about the hard working guy vs. the cushy job man I don't know what I get because it's just ridiculous to think that because one guy went to college he obviously works harder or because he makes more money he works harder. You should do some research and look back at the histories of some poor families. I mean one friend of mine who is poor his dad and mom work there asses off. Talk to them about their parents and they also worked there asses off but they didn't ever get the opportunity to really take off and get rich they had to work hard to surrvive. Then keep following it back and all the sudden you're into his ancestors that were slaves. I mean ya you might be able to find a slacker somewhere along the line but it's not like every generation participated in some sort of slave labor so far.
So I don't buy it. Ya I realize that people work hard and they deserve the money they worked for. However it's in no means fair that someone makes more money for equal work than someone just because they went to school and got accredited to do something specialized. In a working society everyone plays a role and if you take away any role then the society will collapse or adjust probably but it will be hurt. So why does the guy that came out of high school and works hard have to make less then the guy who was privleged enough to go to school. They both put in hard work and continue to do so. Also an education can't be bought with money but you can get accredited with it. The problem is that we are always going to have poor people busting there ass living a shitty life while the upper classes and privledged people with money have it comparitively easy. So the system we have today fails to treat all men equal as it always has.
Now the fact that you support the corporate government policies just shows that either you don't get what's going on or you agree that the government should legistate and push the economy to the favor of the corporate businesses. Thus helping the upper class. I mean do realize how far apart the money structure in this society is? For example if we were to model a room full of a hundred people with a total of $100 in the room as our country. We would have the top one guy with aobut $40 and the top 7 people with about $67. So between the other 93 people there is about $33 floating around. Less then the top one guy. That to you seems fair and you support legislation that adds to that? That is fucking cold.
You also need to take a look at property rights. I mean Zinn points this out in his Peoples history about how a coal company can be given land, huge tax breaks, and all this and yet it is still private property serving private intrests when it was basically given to them by the government. It still happens today. Also you have to realize there is already a fine line between public and private property and the laws basically bestow public land to people to manage privately while the public still owns the land though. The government or the public owns all the land basically. They can take it away if they so desire. Try not paying your taxes. So what needs to happen is a more balanced approach to property rights to even begin to tilt things in the way of justice. I mean it's pretty fundamental and I think any scholar that has done research on this will come to the same conclusions upon exaiming all the data.
Also realists are fucking stupid. Realists are always conforming there idea of reality to meet with everyone elses or the standard realist idea of the time. Idealists are the only peole that have ever really changed anything in the world for better or worse. Only someone who thinks the world can change will try to change it. Realists only do it if they think it's realistic and it very seldom is considered realistic.
Gotta go I'll continue this later. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 11:12:30 PM
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Ok now that I'm done with school for the day I have to just add to the above post that I think the rhetoric about helping people to help themselves is kinda funny. I agree with the statement whole heartedly. If you can help someone help themselves it is much better than just having them relying on you for the rest of their lives. The thing is that it's not the statement I disagree with it's what's usually behind the statement. What it usually seems to imply is that welfare spending needs to be cut. While people usually offer no alternative to the problem of poverty. However if you really want to help people help themselves then you need do everything in your power to get large corporations and minority interests of the upper class out of power.
People's minds are being controlled from a young age when we institutionalize them and send them to prison like learning centers from a young age. The agenda shaping the minds of the future is not to have them change things for the better but accept their place in the world and become passive robots. I think it's safe to say that the business world has shaped education. I don't know if you have any idea or not what it's like to be born to a really poor family in a bad neighborhood. You have to except that the system shapes people into what they are and it's a huge part of our culture. So the basic idea is to use public funding to try to declare a war on poverty. Not perpetuate the welfare state that will eventually fail. That would cost more then welfare.
If you want people to be working parts of society you have to provide an enviroment in which it's an easy choice for them to do so. It's not the way it is now. You don't support people whose answer to crime is build more prisons. You also don't keep repressive economic and social policies around. Basically if you want people to be able to help themselves you have to actually make that a real possibility which is going to require a fundemental change in this countries policies. The best help is always self help but it's to a point where people really can't help themselves and the best that a lot of people can expect out of life is that they will be able to surrvive and raise kids that might be able to bust out of the cycle of poverty. I just want you to realize that for the first time ever since polls have really been going kids are now saying they don't think that they'll have a chance to live as well as their parents did. That's pretty shitty since the majority of people I know work 40+ hours a week at a job they dislike just to be able to get by.
Society will just go on though keeping it's food under lock and key and making people work so hard just to surrvive. All the time thinking that it's the way humans were meant to live. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 12:33:07 AM
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realists conform to reality? what's wrong with that? they've made an assessment on how they think something is and they go with that. that's all anyone has is their perception of reality. i mean, yeah, if you see something you don't like, you do what you can to change it. but the changes you're talking about, although undoubtedly good, are so profound, so fundemental and equally complex that the idea of it just seems absurd. a good realist understands the difference between working for achievable change and wasting time and enegry. they all too often get hit with the "pessimist" label because they don't share in fanciful pipe dreams.
i also find your take on school disturbing. as an aspiring teacher, it's very frustrating to see someone pass off school as a conformist, mind control prison or whatever you called it. it sounds like typical teenage rebel stuff. generally from juniors and seniors who slant decidedly to the left. but let me ask you this. you like books, right? where did you learn to read? where did you learn to write? think about everything you know and do. how much of that would be left to you without your education? that's rhetorical. you learned at school. before you knock it, realize what exactly it did for you. i know it's not perfect. it's far from perfect. history and music ciriculum, i noticed, generally lack greatly. also, you say it's a mind controling institute. but it hasn't controlled your mind. it hasn't controlled my mind. it hasn't controlled all my friends minds. are you saying you're somehow very special? am i? no. we're just dudes. maybe schools just controls people who's minds are weak. and if that's the case, i'm not worried about minds weak enough to be controlled so easily. not much good would come from them.
also, if you don't like school, don't fucking go. i'd be hesitant to teach some kid who so violently opposes school. why be in my class if not to learn? it'd be a waste of your time and it'd be a waste of my time. |
death to false metal. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 3:22:42 PM
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I agree with pretty much everything you said, Dan. Earlier when I said I was a realist and an idealist, I realize the paradox there. What I was implying is that I'm an idealist when it comes to hopes/dreams/thought processes and what "could be". I'm a realist in practice. I won't vote for some 3rd party candidate whose opinions I fully support if I know for a fact that he isn't going to win the election. Yes, I realize the problems inherent with that philosophy...but say I was a huge Nader supporter. We all know he isn't going to win the election or do anything other than piss off some democrats. Voting for him is pointless until/unless you can get massive support for him nationwide.
You're so anti-"big business" that you honestly believe that corporations are shaping the school's "agenda"? After pondering this for five minutes, I was hard pressed to recall a single example supporting this theory (from my education anyway). Every history book I read was almost entirely fact based, and the parts that were opinion based were well delimited. Almost all references to big business had to do with the whole Rockefeller/Carnegie monopolies and failed to mention any current world examples (textbooks are out of date, that's another problem).
If you believe that the "agenda" of the school systems is to support big business and turn us all into drones that take our place in society without aspiring for a better world, wow. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You sound like some conspiracy theorist who fears everything. Are teachers all FBI agents who went to special training courses on how to manipulate our minds into becoming "passive robots"? Or maybe they're alien life forms that have been conforming us for years. I think you need to relax.
"If you want people to be working parts of society you have to provide an enviroment in which it's an easy choice for them to do so."? Bullshit. Why does everything have to be easy? God, I am so sick of this "woe is me" crap. "But it's not easy to get a job!". No, but it's not easy for anyone. It took me 6 months to get a job, but I didn't give up and I didn't file for unemployment. This sense of entitlement is what really frosts me. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 5:09:34 PM
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your over the top fbi angent thing made me smirk a little bit. but i don't understand something. you're an idealist when it comes to hopes/dreams thing, but you're a realist in practice? i don't know. maybe other people understand what you're getting at better than i do, because i've always felt it's what you do counts. that was one of the big problems i had when i was a catholic. they told me that adultry in action or thought is a sin. and i think that's absurd. the thought process doesn't make a person anything. what you do is everything.
zach, while maybe a little extreme, does recoginize the cookie cutter style teaching method that a lot of teachers use. it's easier that way, because there are so many kids that teaching becomes exceedingly difficult when taking into account every kid, as opposed to viewing the kids as one body. being able to not do that is what, in my mind, seperates the great teacher from the average teacher. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 9:36:01 PM
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Well if it sounds like I've got something against realists it's because I do. Everyone who has ever said to me I'm a realist I usually dislike already. In fact I've never met anyone I've liked who has come out and said I'm a realist. It's just if you try to have a conversation about anything with someone who is a realist and you are talking about media reform or anything they always just say that they are realists and it just won't happen. The problem is that anyone who is a realist often too easily accepts someone else ideas on what is realistic and conform to that.
Anyway I agree that at this point it's useless to vote third party and expect results. It's going to take a large cultural shift to make that possible. That's another reason why I dislike this realist stuff because people are all conforming to the idea that a third party will never win so even though I think a majority of people would go third party these days it won't happen. It's the way things work though.
Now as for me being a conspiricy nut or something like that it made me laugh. Look corporations shape our society and in fact dominate foreign and domestic policy. I'm not really going to get into it. If you don't think it does read some chomsky. Now as for the education system I might have gone a little over the top but still do you really think the goal of the education system in this country is to teach them to think? No it's always been to conform to society and learn skills so they are useful to the business world. Read John Dewey and some of his writing on education it's genious at least. Sure school teaches you to read and write and really that's all it taught me or close to it. I always say I got two educations. One taught me to read and the other was from reading. Also the propaganda in history especially but in other areas is so bad and a short comparison in the average school curriculum compared to a peoples history is astonishing in that it covered almost nothing Zinn did. It's not the facts they mentioned it's what they didn't mention. I mean I learned in high school the US went into Vietnam to stop communism. Which of course is total Bull Shit. Then the problem with the war wasn't the war itself but that we couldn't kill charlie good enough and win. It's just sick. The WWII is sick too. It's just that history is written by the ruling class and so you get their version and that's what people think is truth.
Now the worst thing though is that school is by design meant to turn people into passive learners. Look at how almost any class is structured. I'm a believer in what dewey said that you learn by watching then doing. So when kids sit around in class and just listen to a teacher tell them how to get the right answers for a test so they can recieve accredidation they become passive learners. It really institutionalizes them. Chomsky on Mis-Education is a great book for a look into our education systems. Also Jane Jacobs has written some great things about education systems in her books and she knows what's up. Now textbooks whether they are in date or out still suck pretty bad and because they are made and approved by what? Hmm book comapies (I won't call them corporations so no one freaks out). Hmm what intrest would a large business have in continuing to raise kids up to support the corporate system? I mean just look how they idolize leaders and shoot out patriotic BS. The curriculum sucks.
Dan I will say there are a few damn good teachers out there but where I went to school it was far and few between. I would like to mention that I was fooled and a part of the propaganda and system BS and only after I got out of school was I able to break away from it and begin to learn how to think. It's just that schools are in terrible shape and that's sad since we really could have a better education system. I hated school though and I never went and I barely graduated but I know that you have to jump through the hoops and get accredited if you want to be part of society and I don't but I'm at a loss of what else to do right now so I'm conforming because that's my choice. Conform to this way of life or be wiped out. So I'm saying it did control my mind whether or not you think school has shaped your mind is up to you but I think that you probably didn't escape it if you graduated.
James I don't know why you think that it should be easy for a corporation to do what they do and then it should be hard for everyone to do what it is they do. Look if you want a society to change and people to help themselves you have to make it easier for them to do so. It's harder for some then others. The thing is that it could be done too, but that means economic restructure and that's just not in with the ruling classes ideas of how to run things. I just find it amusing that you will obviously state that the world has a lot wrong with it and always will because people a are greedy and then you turn around and support the greediest mother fuckers on this planet. The top 10% of the country is who profits and benifits from big business. If you realize that greed is not a good thing how can you support it? Have you ever analyzed our banking system. Look at this idea that says well we are going to make the price of living so high that people pretty much have to get loans so they can afford shelter or the have to pay into a rent system. So that way we can give them say $100 and they can pay us $10 on top of it. It's the way to make money. If you ever have time look at the control Citi-bank has over the world financially. I'm not just anti-big business for no reason. It's because there are a minority of greedy assholes running the world and damaging people's lives and the earth itself.
I can discuss this more in depth but I'd rather you just read some different stuff and looked at the data. If you can't explain to me at least generally how the propaganda system works in this country and how corporations affect the shaping of culture and minds and policies domestic and foreign it means you are a part of it and you're being taken in with the propaganda. I'm alway glad to hear there are people who work hard and stop at nothing to surrvive but it just goes to show how into the system you are that you think everything should be hard and that humans should have a hard life. Go live with some bushmen and see all the lesuire time they get in life. See how easy it is for them to surrvive. Look at the studies done when people move from a foraging or hunter gatherer lifestyle into an agricultural lifstye and how much harder it is on people. Our society sucks ass. So either be anti-greed and thus anit-big business or just say that you fucking agree that all men are not created equal and that there should be rulers and servants. Or that you agree completely that the top 7% of this country should hold almost 70% of the countries wealth. This all might sound ridiculous to you as it would to anyone who hasn't really looked into it but it's the truth.
I also urge you to study some of things Jefferson said about what would happen when the moneyed powers took over. Look at the things they pointed out that was wrong with Brittian and it's no surprise that the same stuff is going on today only the US is now doing it. The fact that you might not know this stuff or realize how the system works just shows how you are being indoctrinated by the system. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 11:32:25 PM
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It's completely ridiculous to expect a high school history class to analyze the actual reasons the US did something. The point of high school history classes are to provide a solid background in events that happened, not why they happened.
High school is for learning what happened.
College is for learning why they happened.
And if I understood your post correctly Zach, you want us to go back to being a hunter/gatherer society? |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 12:39:32 AM
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the people you met who claimed to be realists weren't realists. they were, in fact, quitters. they took stock of whatever situations effected them, and then, rather than do what they can about it, they just went "well, fuck it." and conformed. that's not realism. that's failing humanity, and it's failing yourself. a realist, at least the kind i am, would see a problem, let's say education, and say "i want to do everything but i won't waste myself on working towards the impossible." really all you can do is the best you can. i believe large scale media reform is possible. you and i may be dead before it's complete. do what you can to change it. i know i won't single handedly reform education. it's not my goal. my goal is to help create as many talented, creative, intelligent musicians who are honest and strong willed as i can. these people may in turn help save the dying art of music, and teach others to do so. so you can tell me i conform too easily to other people's ideas of what's possible, and you can call me a passive learner. i know that's not true. and what i know about me is ultimately what matters.
it's weird you mentioned zinn books. because "you can't be neutral on a moving train" was required fucking reading my sophmore year. people failed because they didn't read it. we also went on a field trip to see "bowling for columbine." (as well as the two towers!) i passed off your anti-school statements as childish ranting, because i've heard most of the things you're saying from people i have no respect for. they too are conforming. conforming to the stereotype of a young liberal. i generally hold low opinions of liberals my age and younger. obviously someone like you is a little better read than others, although i noticed you mention larely books that share your view. what do you read from the other side?
you also don't need to graduate to be part of society. well first of all, knocking a school you barely attended and got out of is absurd. and secondly, a friend of mine dropped out of high school, and he's doing fine. he's happy. sure, he'll never be wildly wealthy. he'll never own a whole lot of stuff. but he's happy with what he has. that right there is more sucessful than so many money hungry pricks who end up sucking down a hot 9mm of lead because they realize their existance is defined solely by materials and nothing else. dropping is not something i'd do, but it's no sin, and not a sentence to failure. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 10:50:40 PM
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Dan it's not the conforming that bothers me. It's what people are conforming too. I don't know what else to say about the education system other than I am not impressed. I didn't go to your school and it may have been better than mine but that's not sayign much considering we had half of our class left at graduation. That's why I say if you are going into education read some John Dewey. I think you'll agree with his views on education and don't worry it's not even really all that close to what I'm saying about schools.
I know I'm a little over the top in haitng realists but it's just one of those things that annoys me is when people tell me they are a realist cause it doesn't mean shit to me. Everyone analyze what's realistic and it just seems to me that people to often let someone else decide it for them. So everyone is a realist I just don't like people going around telling me they are like it means something.
Arthen to keep it simple yes I do want to go back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle. It sounds good to me. 10 maybe 20 hours of work a week at the most. Food is plentiful. Lesuire time is plentiful. It worked for over a million years till 10,000 years ago people started to aggressively encourage their favorite foods to grow and now look how screwed up the world is. I mean it's literally and overpopulated time bomb. Food production goes up every year though and every year we kill off more animals and yada yada yada. It's the only way man can surrvive because it's the only way to follow the laws that govern life. It's simple biology or anthropology. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 01:12:35 AM
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so you're fine with people conforming. . .as long they're conforming to something YOU think is right. and then you turn around and speak ill of school for getting kids to conform to something IT (and let's say corporations, just for kicks) thinks is right. and the difference between you and them would be what? besides they're doing a better job getting kids to conform.
i don't blame you for not being impressed with the school system. it's not impressive. but it's not a tool of evil, either. it's just flawed.
my school wasn't great either. i mean, they tried to get more than one view out there. that's a plus. but they weren't very focused on making the kids learn. they were more focused on getting them to look good on paper, so they can get into a good college and make the school look good. the kids jump through some hoops, get rewarded with grades they don't deserve. here's a perfect illustration. in most of my classes, i almost never got below an a on tests. but because i'm a lazy son of a bitch, i never bothered to do homework. a missing homework assignment resulted, in many clases, as a percentage point off the final average. and we have homework 5 days a week. i did maybe, half of those. i failed the class because i didn't do work i didn't need to do. it's also a practice at my school to give someone a minimum of 55 for a class if they get below that the first two semesters. obviously i only did that in health class. my real average the 2nd semester was a 29 or something. but before i had got a 90. the 29 turned into a 55 and i ended up with some grade i didn't earn. my own music teachers gave substandard, and sometimes absolutely incorrect answers and instruction rather than taking the trouble to explain a little extra to the class. and that hurt me later. my school looks great to the state of new york, because they don't keep track of the number of people from there who fail out of college.
if you want to live a hunter/gatherer life, then go live it somewhere, if that's what you want. it's not a bad idea. but if it seems a little too impractical for you, then don't dwell on it. |
death to false metal. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 04:19:44 AM
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| I think it's a safe assumption to make that we're not going to be switiching back to a hunter/gatherer society. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 3:18:46 PM
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Sorry if I made schools sound evil I only meant to say they were flawed. In the same respect though they fufil the need that our society has. It's just it doesn't fit with any notion I have of what a good working society.
Our culture may not go back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle but I think if they don't make a change in that direction the species and maybe the world will be done shortly. Considering we are the only species living outside of the basic right way to live that is followed by all the other species on this planet it's just a fundamental thing that the earth will right itself by destroying us that is if we don't destroy it first. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 2:24:31 PM
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Breaktime everyone...click the pic for stuff that's funny
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Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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LoveToday
Chatterbox
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 4:38:53 PM
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I give it 10 years and we will be "affectionately" known as.........
The United States of WalMart......brought to you in part by China. |
I childproof my home... and they still get in! |
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LoveToday
Chatterbox
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 4:49:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
I think it's a safe assumption to make that we're not going to be switiching back to a hunter/gatherer society.
Thats too bad. It's strange to think that such a hard working and TOTALLY gratifying way of life is no longer needed. We don't have to hunt (Tell that to the 6-pointer hanging in my garage right now) because we can just go to SHAWS and pick up some hormone infested mad cow burgers plated with pesticide laden vegetables and fruit picked by 4th grade chilean graduates all washed down with a tall cold glass of antiboitic puss from some poor cow stuffed into a 3 foot wide stall for it's ENTIRE life.
whew... needed to get that out!
I don't know if anyone watches Last Comic Standing but one of the comedians Dave Mordall made a funny point.
"If we didn't eat cows, there wouldn't even be cows. Ever seen
a wild cow?"
So basically I agree but only to the point of raising your own food. Or better known as "Hunting and Gathering".
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I childproof my home... and they still get in! |
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LoveToday
Chatterbox
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 5:04:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
It's completely ridiculous to expect a high school history class to analyze the actual reasons the US did something. The point of high school history classes are to provide a solid background in events that happened, not why they happened.
A solid background... in American History? Is that why we celebrate Colombus Day? Or do they teach what REALLY happened when Some frigging guinea stumbled into someone elses backyard and decided to not only PRETEND he discovered it but also decided genocide would be the best bet?
As far as political history, the text books read like novels more than lessons. They teach us what they want us to know.
Math is another one..... my daughter can do long division in her head. WHAY IS THAT NOT ENOUGH? Why must she write everything down in long form to prove to the institution that she knows what she is doing? The correct answer is not enough? Will she be tested as she is counting her money at the grocery store, will she be forbidden to leave until she can put in writing how she came to her conclusion? Or will handing the person the right amount of money and leaving with her stuff be all right? If so..... then leave the kid alone. We put too much emphasis on the small stuff and all it does is freak the kids out and make them not want to learn. |
I childproof my home... and they still get in! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 5:42:50 PM
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quote:
Thats too bad. It's strange to think that such a hard working and TOTALLY gratifying way of life is no longer needed. We don't have to hunt (Tell that to the 6-pointer hanging in my garage right now) because we can just go to SHAWS and pick up some hormone infested mad cow burgers plated with pesticide laden vegetables and fruit picked by 4th grade chilean graduates all washed down with a tall cold glass of antiboitic puss from some poor cow stuffed into a 3 foot wide stall for it's ENTIRE life.
oh yay, you're one of these people. i eat hormone infested mad cow burgers. i eat pesticide laden vegetables, i eat 4th grade chilean graduates, and i drink antibiotic puss from some poor cow stuffed into a 3 foot wide stall for it's entire life. and you know something? i feel fucking great, because it doesn't matter. first of all, how does it feel to know that these cows either know about you nor would care about you if they could. stop worrying about animals that too stupid to know the difference and start caring about people who no one cares for. and when i say "you" i don't mean lovetoday, i'm sure you're a fine person. i mean every animal rights activist i know, which is a lot. these people treat their fellow man like shit and then think they're fucking heros for standing up for livestock. they're still bad people for being jerks to humans. i was arguing with a vegan not too long ago and he tried to fucking hit me. yeah, a real purehearted humanitarian. they hep animals because the animals won't notice their gaping personality flaws. again lovetoday, not you. well maybe you, maybe not. i don't know you. i'm assuming not you.
about pesticides. you. . .you do WASH vegetables before you eat them, right? because water gets a lot of that stuff right out. it also gets out insect shit, as i understand it. and if it doesn't, so what? your body isn't going to turn to dust by eating some insecticides. in fact, it makes it stronger. a lot organic food eaters i know, and again, i know a few, are frail, weak and constantly sick. it's because they treat themselves like they're made of glass. i eat like shit, and i'll be dead around 10 years before i should be, but the last ten years of like usually suck anyway. |
death to false metal. |
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LoveToday
Chatterbox
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 6:02:22 PM
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It just makes me feel better knowing that the way I handle the food issue is "to the best of my ability". If everyone did that and really strived to be aware of where their food comes from, it would inevitably bring down the level of disease not only for animals but for people.
In case you didn't notice in my post, I have a 6-point deer in my garage right now. It's not so much about animal rights as animal skank. |
I childproof my home... and they still get in! |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 8:54:58 PM
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Everyone should drink organic milk for two reasons... One it just tastes so much better and two the fact that cows are constantly being injected with anti-botics is frightening. I don't think everyone (including myself) fully understand how dangerous anti-biotics are to the world.
Dan it's so true that some of the people I know who are all into animal rights stuff are still dicks but even Ghandi wasn't perfect and neither was jesus. So I think where the real problem with animal abuse stuff lies is in changing our culture. Like once people are no longer so damn athropocentric it goes with out saying that the animal rights problem would disappear. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 9:06:53 PM
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I love animals. They taste delicious.
How do you know a hunter/gatherer lifestyle is TOTALLY gratifying?
Actually, under a certain set of beliefs Jesus was perfect. But that would depend on one's ideas of being perfect. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 9:57:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
It's completely ridiculous to expect a high school history class to analyze the actual reasons the US did something. The point of high school history classes are to provide a solid background in events that happened, not why they happened.
High school is for learning what happened.
College is for learning why they happened.
And if I understood your post correctly Zach, you want us to go back to being a hunter/gatherer society?
I know this is so random and less serious than what is being said, but Arthen I beg to differ with you. In many cases, I am sure you are right, but this isn't always true. My history teacher literally changed my life. I learned more from her in my Junior year of high school then I did earning my minor in Political Science... That's not to knock my college education... it's been a fantastic one... But there is no denying that a high school teacher taught me more of how and why American government is the way it is.
There are a lot of high school people on this board, and I wouldn't knock their opinion because they haven't reached a higher education... Otherwise, you know I love everything else that you say... but, whoa, had to put in my 86 cents here!
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Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:13:00 PM
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And by the way Love Today, Columbus wasn't a guinea, at least that's not what they were calling him the 15th century.... And even if you wanted to toss around racial slur, you are actually generalizing him as being from a place that he is not.
Not to sound like a bitch... and I really like and agree with many of the things you said... but that just made every Italian bone in my body ache. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:27:15 PM
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I'm glad to hear that a high school teacher had such a big impact upon your life. I feel quite lucky that I had a handful of teachers that had an impact upon mine. Unfortunately, now a days I don't see this as being typical.
And by no means was I trying to say that people in high school don't have valid opinions. I think it's a far statement to make that the people on this board who are in high school seem more informed than the high school students I normally deal with. But then I'd make that statement about the people on the board, seeming to be more informed than the populous as a whole. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:34:15 PM
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| Oh no! I know that you weren't saying that our fellow h.s. Aboard Friends don't have valid opinions... it was more of my opinion! I just had to toss in my experience... If it weren't for Miss Kepler, I'd still be working at the Bubble Room... uugghh |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:36:31 PM
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| If it wasn't for my high school teachers, I never would've become interested in becoming an educator. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 12:24:25 AM
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i'm going to have to plead ignorance on this one, zach. what's harmful to me about anti-biotics injected into cows? i'm not disagreeing or challenging you, i just don't know for sure what the danger is. if you want to hit me up with some information, please do.
miss sorrel, you're from italy? or are you an american that takes offense to racial slurs that don't apply to americans? there's a lot of this. i know this girl, and i absolutely adore her, but she's very into this whole "irish pride" thing. and she gets super pissed whenever anyone says anything about the irish. what i don't understand about that kind of nationality pride in general (this goes for "proud to be an american" too) is that, in short, there's nothing to be proud of. why take pride in something you had no part in doing. these people must really flip their shit when they actually accomplish something. how come there's no "brown hair pride?" about as much effort goes into that as into being, say, german or italian. save pride for things you do, not for things that you are by happenstance.
if you're from italy, ms. sorrel, then i understand you're disapproval of the word. but if you're american, i can't see how it bothers you. it's for italians. not americans. |
death to false metal. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 02:11:22 AM
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I'm not too sure about this, but I always believed that the over use of antibiotics would eventually lead to infections (and such things) becoming immune to the antibiotics.
I could be completely wrong though. I've got not facts. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 08:54:12 AM
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Dan P. I understand what you are saying, and I was waiting for somebody to make some comment like this. You got it, I am from America, 1st generation... I have pride in my background, but don't parade it. However... I know the struggles that my family went through... The racism, that isn't even worth getting into over this board... Please forgive me for being compassionate and empathetic for the people that I love. Do you call black people the "N-word"... and say, "why does it bother you?? You weren't a slave?" And please don't jump on the oppurtunity here... I am not comparing my family's issues to slavery... Just struck a chord.
And besides, what I was saying was that it was actually the wrong racial slur. |
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LoveToday
Chatterbox
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 10:54:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Miss Sorrel
And by the way Love Today, Columbus wasn't a guinea, at least that's not what they were calling him the 15th century.... And even if you wanted to toss around racial slur, you are actually generalizing him as being from a place that he is not.
Not to sound like a bitch... and I really like and agree with many of the things you said... but that just made every Italian bone in my body ache.
I am sorry. I am usually so much better than that.
I didn't mean for that to sound like a racial slur, it just came out that way. I was getting pretty aggravated writing that post. I have this debate at least twice a year. I can't help but to stand on the side of the natives that were here already when he discovered this place and took credit. The hunters/gatherers who knew how to take from the earth and give back so that there would always be enough for the future, those are the ones who got screwed and now our pansy-ass kids get the day off in celebration of such dastardly deeds. Christopher Colombus could have been from Mars and it still would piss me off. |
I childproof my home... and they still get in! |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 11:05:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by LoveToday
Or do they teach what REALLY happened when Some frigging guinea stumbled into someone
Mind your tongue. And Dan, that slur has just as much to do with Italian Americans as it does with Italians. I'm not even remotely Italian, but racism or "nation"ism or whatever you want to call it shouldn't be tolerated. I have no problem with people that have pride for a land they are descendent from, but did not live in. Their ancestors came from there and it's a part of who they are.
I'm mostly English, and while I don't have a lot of homeland pride, lol...it'd still bother me to be generalized by some ignorant slur.
quote:
Math is another one..... my daughter can do long division in her head. WHAY IS THAT NOT ENOUGH?
For a number of reasons, not the least of which is to prevent cheating. There's also a large group of people that can do most simple mathematics such as long division in their heads, until they reach a certain number of integers in the divisor/dividend/quotient. Good luck dividing a number that has 50 digits in your head and remembering it all. I can do a fair amount of calculus in my head...but believe me, if I just wrote the answer down when I was in college, that wouldn't fly, and for good reason.
It's like saying "I know the answers, why do I have to take the test to prove that I know the answers?!". It sucks, I hated solving simple algebraic equations with 4 lines instead of stating the obvious, but sometimes you have to go through the motions. Consider the alternative of not being able to do long division at all...I'd be happy and not "put so much emphasis on the small stuff".
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 11:27:23 AM
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no, i wouldn't call a black person a nigger because that specific slur is used against black people. i wouldn't call them thick lips or spear chucker for the same reason.
alright james. if you want to extend that slur to apply to americans, then so be it. but then more or less every term is an insult to an american, because americans have so many different nationalities mixed within them. is that something you really want to deal with? my way is easier, though. you can call me a kraut, a guinea, or a mick until the moon falls from the sky. it won't offend me because, although some of my relatives in the qucikly fading past are from the countries those words slur against, i am not. and you can make fun of them all you want, but they're all dead, so they can't hear you. besides all of which, i can't recall the last time i cared about anything a racist said.
i agree that racism shouldn't be tolerated, but unless lovetoday is a racist, which i'm going to go ahead and assume she isn't, then i still fail to see the problem. her use of the word guinea seems to have been made to take colombus down from his holiday man status, not to make fun of italians. words mean only what the speaker intends them to mean. |
death to false metal. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 12:23:57 PM
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| Fair enough. I was just saying it's a matter of respect. Without stating that there's no offense intended, I could easily see someone assuming that there was. Like you, it wouldn't personally offend me if someone were to insult my not-so-homeland, it's just the concept in general that bothers me. The same goes for black people being called the words you mentioned...while I'm not black, I still find it offensive. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 1:09:16 PM
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| I don't get Columbus day off anymore. Or Veteran's day. The two holidays that CSU Chico have deemed appropriate to cancel classes for are Labor Day and Cesar Chavez day. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 1:24:04 PM
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See dan that's why I like you because you look past all these nationalities and that and just hate everyone equally.
Now antibiotics. Some go as far to say they are going to be the death of man. I don't know about that I think we'll be gone before then but that's just me. So Arthen pretty much said it. It's about the overuse of antibiotics and bacteria evolving and becoming immune to them. So that in theory we are creating new bacteria so strong it could wipe out man or at least have devastating effects on man. Also there is a far greater chance that childeren who have over three cycles of antibiotics will experience developmental delays.
quote:
Acquired resistance
Many bacteria acquire resistance to one or more of the antibiotics to which they were formerly susceptible.
Example: In the U.S. in the decade from 1985-1995, resistance of Shigella (which causes gastrointestinal illness) to ampicillin grew from 32% to 67%. And, while only 7% of these isolates were resistant to the combination of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim at the start of the decade, that figure had grown to 35% by the end of the decade.
Bacteria develop resistance by acquiring genes encoding proteins that protect them from the effects of the antibiotic. In some cases the genes arise by mutation; in others, they are acquired from other bacteria that are already resistant to the antibiotic. The genes are often found on plasmids which spread easily from one bacterium to another — even from one species of bacterium to another.
Examples:
Synthesis of the enzyme penicillinase — or other beta-lactamases — provides protection from the beta-lactam antibiotics. These enzyme break the beta-lactam ring at the position shown with the green arrow in the diagram of penicillin G.
Likewise synthesis of cephalosporinases defeats the cephalosporins.
Some bacteria modify their DNA gyrase thus defeating quinolones.
Some bacteria synthesize "pumps" in their plasma membrane through which they remove antibiotics like tetracyclines from the interior of the cell.
Bacteria may methylate their ribosomes obscuring the target of antibiotics (e.g., erythromycin) that ordinarily bind to and inactivate the ribosome — or conversely
they may enzymatically modify the antibiotic (e.g., kanamycin) so it can no longer "see" its ribosomal target.
Bacteria may modify the structure of their peptidoglycan wall and thus avoid the inhibitory effects of antibiotics like cycloserine.
An alarming number of human pathogens have acquired genes to combat all the presently-used antibiotics except vancomycin and recently vancomycin-resistant bacteria have appeared. These multidrug-resistant strains are particularly common in hospitals where antibiotic use is heavy, and the patients often have weakened immune systems.
So the fact that we are constantly injecting cows with them to keep their swollen udders (BGH hormones) from infection could have disasterous results. It isn't a very wise use of medicine just to get some more milk from cows. Besides the quality of the milk drops. It's nasty. I'm probably not the most qualified to talk about this stuff but that's basically it. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 4:01:24 PM
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| I don't know if it is in argument to that idea, but I have heard of ways that scientists can alter (probably genetically) the current antibiotics to create different forms that can still combat bacteria, etc. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 10:24:49 PM
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| Yeah Arthen they've actually been doing that too since some antibiotics have become less effective. Just so long as people realize that antibiotics should be used as seldom as possible and when you use them you have to make sure that you use a full prescription to make sure the bacteria is killed off. Often people use them and start to feel somewhat better and quit. By that time the bacteria has become immune to the antibiotic. That's what's not good. You have to make another antibiotic then to kill off the new bacteria. So eventually a situation could arise where the bacteria is so resistant to our antibiotics that it would be very deadly. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 10:45:00 PM
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| where's that from? |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2004 : 10:59:38 PM
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| Sorry dan it was off the web, but I forgot to post the link and now I don't know where it was from. The first time I heard about this stuff a guy on democracy now was talking all about this stuff. Google will bring up all kinds of stuff though. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 12:56:02 PM
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| s'alright. there was a lot of big words there i don't understand and wanted to see if the site you got it from explained some of it. biology isn't my thing. |
death to false metal. |
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Presidential Debates
