| Author |
 Topic  |
|
therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
 Posted - 09/30/2004 : 11:29:47 PM
|
It's 30 minutes in, and Kerry is making Bush look like a silly bitch.
Thank god. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
|
|
therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 11:45:04 PM
|
 |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
 |
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 12:04:00 AM
|
| kerry presented his bullshit far better. but then, we've expected that. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 12:04:41 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
kerry presented his bullshit far better. but then, we've expected that.
shut up dan p., you cock! |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 12:19:44 AM
|
| haha. i am fantastic. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 01:20:03 AM
|
I thought Bush did well bringing up the quote against Kerry early on.
They are both silly bitches. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
KevinLesko
Alien Abductee
3712 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 02:06:48 AM
|
Kerry seemed a bit nervous at first, but got more confident as time went on. Bush basically used the same response every other time... he just kept repeating himself. Not to mention that he actually answered that the 1000+ dead US soldiars has been "worth it".
More importantly, I can't wait for SNL to debut next week because their skits on the debates are always great. Too bad Will isnt around to do Bush anymore though. |
god
Kevin |
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 08:45:21 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by KevinLesko
More importantly, I can't wait for SNL to debut next week because their skits on the debates are always great. Too bad Will isnt around to do Bush anymore though.
LOL, I've been getting back into this phase where I watch the Best of Will Ferrell Volume 1 & 2 every day. God that man is funny.
Am I the only one that is completely unsettled by the fact that Bush and Kerry are the two best people we can come up with in this entire country? I seriously hope that something happens that leads to neither one running this country. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 08:49:54 AM
|
| infowars.com |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 9:35:25 PM
|
What's funny about this is that everyone who I talk to who is a Bush supporter thinks he did great or that it was pretty even and everyone who is either a Kerry supporter or a Bush hater thinks Kerry killed him. I personally am biased as I really hate Bush and I only mildly hate Kerry but I thought Kerry did a better job.
Oh and I heard some thing about that the president demanded that in the side by side shots they would zoom closer in on him so Kerry wouldn't look taller than him. Also that there was to be no wide shots. Anyone else hear anything about this from a reliable source? The kid I heard it from seemed like he had recently done a few lines. |
 |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 9:46:37 PM
|
| hey, it's hard work. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 10:06:35 PM
|
| I heard the contract to do the debates was 32 pages long. And that even up until the last moments before, the Kerry team had a problem with a placement on the lights. That's what the AP article told me. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 02:25:38 AM
|
Kerry was certainly the better speaker; more eloquent and articulate, but that means nothing without substance. I'm a bit disturbed to read that so many of you feel that he came out on top. His continued unwillingness to take a stance is in no way confidence inspiring. I know it's not what many of you would like to hear, but Kerry comes off as pure politician to me, but in no way a leader. To vote someone into office, regardless of credibility, only because you don't like the person in office right now is just not wise. Even if you despise Bush, at least look at Kerry's qualities, both good and bad, before placing your vote simply for anyone who isn't Bush. If you watched the debate and tried even a little to take it in from a neutral point of view, I cannot imagine how you would feel that Kerry displayed the necessary qualities to be the leader of this country. He contradicted himself so many times within the course of the debate that it became blatantly obvious that he was just pandering to the audience, which I personally found extremely insulting to my intelligence.
He tried to gain support of the Bush advocates by emphasizing that he would strengthen the military and finish the job in Iraq, while at the same time appeasing the anti-Bush crowds by saying that the war was at the wrong place, and the wrong time, and a "grand diversion," and also how Bush mislead the country. He then turns around in the next breath to say that based upon the intelligence that Bush had at the time, it was, indeed, the right call. Furthermore, Kerry himself saw the same intelligence and supported the war, only to turn around later, of course only in hindsight, to say that he only would have supported the war if it were waged after giving in to Saddam's games and going through another round of resolutions... That he was for the use of military force, but only if it were more planned. If you ask me, he's just putting an arbitrary caveat on his reverse time-line stance so that he can claim to have had the decision making ability that Bush supporters like, but also the better judgment in patience and tact that anti-Bush supporters criticize so much. It's just insulting. Bush put it very well when he said that it is lunacy to think that after notorious disobedience with regard to some 16 UN resolutions that Saddam would have just said, "OK" and disarmed had they drawn it out another 1 or 2.
Another contradiction that drove me nuts was when he was talking about the extremely poor living conditions and state of supply for our troops in Iraq. His story about the troops coming up to him and saying, "Save us, we need your help Mr. Kerry" was total bullshit. If that happened, then I'm Donald Duck. He claimed that needless lives are being lost because the soldiers do not have adequate body armor. He cited the Hummers over there being unarmored as a specific example. He went on and on about how it's atrocious that we have soldiers over there without the necessary equipment and supplies that they need. But what he doesn't say, that Bush had to point out, is that he voted AGAINST the budget proposal that would have allowed the troops to get all the necessary supplies that they needed! Again, I just found that extremely insulting to my intelligence. How would anyone not pick up on the fact that he's trying to one-up Bush in saying that he wants our troops to be better outfitted (which implies empathy, but more importantly, SUPPORT above and beyond what the current president has shown), but at the same time contradicting himself, having been accountable for the current problems that he complains about and blames on his opponent.
Here's what really made me want to pull my hair out though. It happened in 3 parts.
1) Kerry finally took a stance on that what he wants for this country is to bring the world leaders of other nations back to the table. He wants to undo the alienation that occurred through the war in Iraq and proceed with a coalition, no ifs ands or buts. Great. I agree wholeheartedly that that would be ideal, however to think that leaders from countries such as France are going to just spring up into action because Kerry is at the table instead of Bush is ridiculous. I'd like to know just how it is that he is planning on persuading them to come to the table with regard to this subject. All the charisma in the world won't accomplish that.
2) When asked what the single most serious threat to America is, Kerry said, unhesitatingly, the proliferation of nuclear arms. Once again I cannot disagree. He was adamant that countries such as North Korea and Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons and that it is the current administration's fault that the former now is a nuclear power. He made it very clear, that one of his immediate goals in the White House would be to disarm North Korea. Wonderful, but when asked how, he completed the triangle as such:
3) Kerry's answer to disarming North Korea was to begin BILATERAL talks with North Korea given that the existing coalition of nations, currently trying to resolve the problem diplomatically, has been unsuccessful. Again, let me repeat the word "bilateral." Now, reread number 1 if you can't remember what it was and why this is a HUGE contradiction... as in, the 2 things that he said were his top priorities and most solid stances, weave in and out like a pretzel. He basically said that he wants the US to put the pressure on North Korea in separate bilateral talks to the current talks. Has he no concept for what this would do? This would cause China and the other countries currently in talks to walk away... Bush even called him out about that. This would be the EXACT same move that he criticizes Bush for with regard to the Iraqi war: basically saying to the other countries involved in the talks that we don't really care. They can keep trying, but the US is going to take charge and do whatever they deem necessary anyway. Again... bilateral is the key word here.
Lastly, both Bush and Kerry each had one major point that seemed to really stick with me, though again, I found Bush's to be far more compelling. Kerry's was that if you are not satisfied with how the Bush administration has run the country over the past 4 years, you can only expect more of the same. Quite obvious, but fair enough. It gets the point across. Bush's major point was that if the troops are to succeed oversees, they MUST have the support of their leader. One cannot call the war a grand diversion, or say that it is in the wrong place at the wrong time, yet turn around and lead the military and expect the troops to perform. It would be unbelievably disheartening and that is not the quality of a leader. Not only that, but what kind of message does this send to the other countries that Kerry is thinking he will recruit?! "Come join us in this fight in the wrong place at the wrong time... Come join us in this grand distraction!" Is he out of his mind? That's leadership?! It's a huge contradiction, an unrealistic promise, and a recipe for disaster and embarrassment. We've seen enough of that already without his help.
I guess the point of my diatribe here is that regardless of how much you may hate Bush, voting in someone because they're "anyone other than Bush" could be a big mistake. I am not trying to proselytize to you all at all... quite the opposite. I'm only asking for you to make informed, realistic decisions instead of emotional ones. Honestly consider BOTH sides instead of having made up your mind a year ago before you even knew who the democratic candidate was going to be. I am not a big Bush fan at all, but I would be scared stiff to have a man like Kerry in office. He has slimy politician written all over him.
|
 |
|
|
|
Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 02:26:57 AM
|
| By the way, Kerry's fake tan looked hilarious. I heard he claimed that he got it playing football... riiiiiiight. |
|
|
|
|
James M.
Chatterbox
USA
245 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 02:42:06 AM
|
| who did you vote for last election silky? |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 04:06:24 AM
|
| Silky, thank you for taking the time and writing that out. You basically summarized a lot of my feelings. I agree with the points you make. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 09:53:23 AM
|
I started to read your post Silky and what I read was well written so I will definitely go back later and read it all.
Unfortunately I am a Republican who will vote for Kerry. The debate didn't change my opinion. My canditate of choice was Dennis Kucinich, and not because of Tim's support of him. I voted for Bush the last time but only because I like Cheney and Powell. I am disappointed in both.
The Iraq war was the last straw for me in backing Bush. He has done nothing for the economy, health care is a mess, he was an idiot when he learned our country was under attack. I did think he did a good job right after 9-11 and I supported going into Afganastan, but going into Iraq was a huge mistake and he is still trying to say it was the right thing to do. Even his own advisors said it wasn't the right choice. He is arrogant and is trying to be something he clearly isn't, a great leader.
During the debate he lost his train of thought on numerous occasions. He definitely had that "deer looking into headlights" look throughout the debate.
Bush had to paractice staying up late at night because he usually is in bed by 9:30. I found that a bit humerous.
I think Kerry will be a better leader than Bush ever was. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 11:39:25 AM
|
| yeah, but kerry so far kerry hasn't interrupted my 11 o'clock seinfeld to stumble through some ridiculous speech. i won't live in a country led by a man who thinks he's can just replace seinfeld. that's total bullshit. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
LoveToday
Chatterbox
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 1:46:03 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by therippa
It's 30 minutes in, and Kerry is making Bush look like a silly bitch.
Thank god.
30 minutes in and Bush was making Bush look like a silly bitch.
Whats with the goofy faces and eye rolling Mr. President? What is this high school? I think he should either take up Prozac or increase his fiber intake. Broccoli has fiber. |
I childproof my home... and they still get in! |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 2:24:15 PM
|
| Silky you gotta know that I think both candidates are not worth my vote and I dislike both but I think you should seriously check out some of the stuff Bush has done during his tenure. To me a president who lies to the american people and push them into a bullshit war (oh and this whole he had bad info and so it wasn't a lie doesn't make it any better it's either he's a liar or completely incompetent take your pick) has to go. It pisses me off that these are the only two guys we can come up with to be president. Bush though and his whole administration are full of some of the worst men on earth. The stuff they did in Iraq both during the war and after was and is horrendus. Now I know that Kerry isn't going to come in and fix everything but I have to side with what Tim said on this and that's that you have to get the facists out of power. I'm seriously scared that two years down the line if Bush is office that the US will invade Iran from the military bases in Iraq. The country is no safer and the war on terror is bullshit, and I don't think Kerry is going to be a great president but Bush has to leave office. Where is someone like Booth when you need him? |
|
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 3:03:21 PM
|
| Okay, you can't call someone completely incompetent because they have the wrong information that was provided to them. You might as well call everyone in history who believed that the world was flat incompetent as well. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 6:13:50 PM
|
| i think george carlin got it right when he said that this is the best we can do with the system and people we're using. there's endless complainging about politicians, but these politicians come from any number of american institutions. churches, schools, businesses. the reason we never see any bright, virtuous people in office is simply because they don't exist. we have no one at all fit to be president of the united states. a stupid, greedy, ignorant public will elect a stupid, greedy, ignorant leader. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 6:34:40 PM
|
there is always more than one side to the same story.
"September 27, 2004
"Bush Ad Twists Kerry's Words on Iraq"
Selective use of Kerry's own words makes him look inconsistent on Iraq. A closer look gives a different picture.
Summary
Kerry has never wavered from his support for giving Bush authority to use force in Iraq, nor has he changed his position that he, as President, would not have gone to war without greater international support. But a Bush ad released Sept. 27 takes many of Kerry's words out of context to make him appear to be alternately praising the war and condemning it.
Here we present this highly misleading ad, along with what Kerry actually said, in full context.
Analysis:
This ad is the most egregious example so far in the 2004 campaign of using edited quotes in a way that changes their meaning and misleads voters.
Bush-Cheney 2004
"Searching:"
Bush: I'm George W. Bush and I approve this message.
Kerry: It was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision I supported him.
Kerry: I don't believe the President took us to war as he should have.
Kerry: The winning of the war was brilliant.
Kerry: It's the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.
Kerry: I have always said we may yet even find weapons of mass destruction.
Kerry: I actually did vote for the 87 billion dollars before I voted against it.
(Graphic: How can John Kerry protect us . . .when he doesn't even know where he stands?)
"Right Decision"
Kerry is shown saying it was "the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein." What's left out is that he prefaced that by saying Bush should have made greater use of diplomacy to accomplish that.
The quote is from May 3, 2003, at the first debate among Democratic presidential contenders, barely three weeks after the fall of Baghdad. The question was from ABC's George Stephanopoulos:
Q: And Senator Kerry, the first question goes to you. On March 19th, President Bush ordered General Tommy Franks to execute the invasion of Iraq. Was that the right decision at the right time?
Kerry: George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.
(Note: We have added the emphasis in these and the following quotes to draw attention to the context left out by the Bush ad.)
"As he should have"
The full "right decision" quote is actually quite consistent with the next Kerry quote, "I don't believe the President took us to war as he should have," which is from an interview with Chris Matthews on MSNBC's "Hardball" program Jan. 6, 2004:
Q: Do you think you belong to that category of candidates who more or less are unhappy with this war, the way it's been fought, along with General Clark, along with Howard Dean and not necessarily in companionship politically on the issue of the war with people like Lieberman, Edwards and Gephardt? Are you one of the anti-war candidates?
Kerry: I am -- Yes, in the sense that I don't believe the president took us to war as he should have, yes, absolutely. Do I think this president violated his promises to America? Yes, I do, Chris.
Q: Let me...
Kerry: Was there a way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable? You bet there was, and we should have done it right.
"Winning of the war was brilliant"
When Kerry said "the winning of the war was brilliant" he wasn't praising Bush for waging the war, he was praising the military for the way they accomplished the mission. He also repeated his criticism of Bush for failing to better plan for what came next. This was also on "Hardball," May 19:
Q: All this terrorism. If you were president, how would you stop it?
Kerry: Well, it's going to take some time to stop it, Chris, but we have an enormous amount of cooperation to build one other countries. I think the administration is not done enough of the hard work of diplomacy, reaching out to nations, building the kind of support network.
I think they clearly have dropped the ball with respect to the first month in the after -- winning the war. That winning of the war was brilliant and superb, and we all applaud our troops for doing what they did, but you've got to have the capacity to provide law and order on the streets and to provide the fundamentally services, and I believe American troops will be safer and America will pay less money if we have a broader coalition involved in that, including the United Nations.
"Wrong war, wrong place"
When Kerry called Iraq "the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time" he was once again criticizing Bush for failing to get more international support before invading Iraq. He criticized Bush for what he called a "phony coalition" of allies:
Kerry (Sept 6, 2004): You've got about 500 troops here, 500 troops there, and it's American troops that are 90 percent of the combat casualties, and it's American taxpayers that are paying 90 percent of the cost of the war . . . It's the wrong war, in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Earlier that same day at another campaign appearance he repeated pretty much what he's said all along:
Kerry (Sept 6, 2004): "I would not have done just one thing differently than the president on Iraq, I would have done everything differently than the president on Iraq. I said this from the beginning of the debate to the walk up to the war. I said, 'Mr. President, don't rush to war, take the time to build a legitimate coalition and have a plan to win the peace ."
We May Find WMD's
Nine months of fruitless searching have gone by since Kerry said on Dec. 14, 2003 that weapons of mass destruction might yet be found in Iraq. But what's most misleading about the Bush ad's editing is that it takes that remark out of a long-winded -- but still consistent -- explanation of Kerry's overall position on Iraq:
The exchange was on Fox News Sunday, with host Chris Wallace:
Q: But isn't it, in a realistic political sense going to be a much harder case to make to voters when you have that extraordinary mug shot of Saddam Hussein...looking like he's been dragged into a police line-up?
Kerry: Absolutely not, because I voted to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. I knew we had to hold him accountable. There's never been a doubt about that. But I also know that if we had done this with a sufficient number of troops, if we had done this in a globalized way, if we had brought more people to the table, we might have caught Saddam Hussein sooner. We might have had less loss of life. We would be in a stronger position today with respect to what we're doing.
Look, again, I repeat, Chris, I have always said we may yet even find weapons of mass destruction. I don't know the answer to that. We will still have to do the job of rebuilding Iraq and resolving the problem between Shias and Sunnis and Kurds. There are still difficult steps ahead of us.
The question that Americans want to know is, what is the best way to proceed? Not what is the most lonely and single-track ideological way to proceed. I believe the best way to proceed is to bring other countries to the table, get some of our troops out of the target, begin to share the burden.
The $87 Billion
The final quote is the one in which the Bush ad takes its best shot. Kerry not only said it, he did it. He voted for an alternative resolution that would have approved $87 billion in emergency funds for troops and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan, but it was conditioned on repealing much of Bush's tax cuts, and it failed 57-42. On the key, up-or-down vote on the $87 billion itself Kerry was only one of 12 senators in opposition, along with the man who later become his running mate, Sen. John Edwards.
It's not only Bush who criticizes Kerry's inconsistency on that vote. Rival Democratic presidential candidate Joe Lieberman, a senator who also had voted to give Bush authority to use force in Iraq, said: "I don't know how John Kerry and John Edwards can say they supported the war but then opposed the funding for the troops who went to fight the war that the resolution that they supported authorized." Lieberman spoke at a candidate debate in Detroit Oct. 26, 2003.
Another Democratic rival who criticized Kerry for that vote was Rep. Dick Gephardt, who said beforehand that he would support the $87 billion "because it is the only responsible course of action. We must not send an ambiguous message to our troops, and we must not send an uncertain message to our friends and enemies in Iraq."
But aside from the $87 billion matter, this Bush ad is a textbook example of how to mislead voters through selective editing.
___________
Sources:
"Democratic Presidential Candidates Debate Sponsored by ABC News," Federal News Service, 3 May 2003.
"Interview with John Kerry," MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews, 6 Jan 2004.
"Interview with John Kerry," MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews, 19 May 2004.
Lois Romano and Paul Farhi, "Kerry Attacks Bush on Handling of Iraq," The Washington Post 7 Sep 2004: A8.
Calvin Woodward, "Kerry Slams 'Wrong War in the Wrong Place,'" The Associated Press , 6 Sep 2004.
Fox News Sunday, "Interview with John Kerry," 14 December 2003.
Adam Nagourney and Diane Cardwell, "Democrats in Debate Clash Over Iraq War," New York Times, 27 Oct 2003: A1.
Joe Klein, "Profiles in Convenience," Time magazine, 19 Oct 2003.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please visit http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=269 to view this FactCheck article in full.
taken from: http://www.mackreport.com/MACKREPORT%20Missed.htm
"
there is more to the story than even the previous article favoring kerry could find. there will be more sides everywhere you look(for and against kerry) to everything in my post, including the polls found further below.
here is a different perspective (if not two) of kerry "supporting the 87 billion dollar bill, then opposing it".
http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/cfm/record.cfm?id=211793
kerry submitted a bill to "require the Treasury Department to raise an additional $87 billion for the President’s request for supplemental funding for our troops in Iraq and for reconstruction".
also, Bush threatened to veto the 87 billion dollar bill in congress if it wasn't done exactly the way he wanted it:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/21/sprj.irq.congress.iraq.ap/
they both wanted the bill, but approached the funding differently. bush threatened to veto it if he didn't get what he demanded. kerry didn't vote for it because it wasn't what he wanted. since bush would've done the same and now uses it against kerry, bush is, in that respect, deceitful and a hypocrit.
many people accuse kerry of not taking a stand. how much has kerry appeared on television over the past 4 years? how about before the democratic nominating convention? and in the months following? with all the negative adds (some officially endorsed by bush, other's being questionable) that accuse kerry and twist his words, not being an incumbent president whose attention the world is focused on, not preemptively knowing he would be the nominee (thus not having as much time to prepare as bush), not having a previous presidential platform to stand on (and not having one that people have know the details of for 4 years), and perhaps most importantly, not having anywhere near the campaigning funds as the president, how do you get media focused attention to cut through the clutter? one way is the presidential debates.
another topic is world view: here is an article before the debate showing kerry strongly ahead of bush in popularity around the world:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3640754.stm
and after:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=6&u=/ap/20041001/ap_on_el_pr/debate_world_view
sadly, it is mostly because of an "anything but bush" mentality.
what do these articles show? essentially that bush has lost the trust of many countries around the world. we wonder, why do people hate us?
could it be america's foreign policy, lack of honesty, or perhaps arrogance?
as far as the debate itself, is there any such thing as an "impure" or "half" politican? bush came across as something slightly more than a highly trained dog. he rarely gave direct responses (and sometimes didn't understand the question at all), but instead frequently fell back on catch phrases and buzzwords such as "flip-flopped", frequently accuse kerry of not "supporting" the troops and sending "mixed messages" because of his vote against bush's version of the $87B bill, and used the war in iraq to play on the emotions of the american people, similar to what he's been doing since 9/11.
we've been brainwashed with such things as "patriotism", "terror, "support our troops", and "evil" to such an extent that we no longer consider the context they're used in, or their consequences.
for far too long after 9/11, people in the senate and congress were afraid to vote against bush's proposals, giving bush unprecendented and near unlimited power. being afraid of being branded a "traitor", a "hater of freedom", or simply soft on terrorism, an entire branch of checks and balances was coerced into voting for such things as the patriot ("better to be safe than sorry") act and the war in iraq, (of which bush has changed his reasons for going to war on several different occasions).
even now, this presidency plays on our emotions and uses scare tactics to ensure the vote. to quote cheney:
"It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States,"
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040907_956.html
if i am not mistaken, didn't 9/11 happen on bush's watch, giving him the record, and not on kerry's? how does he know the end results of his invalid, slippery-slope argument, when kerry's record on being president is non-existent, let alone being president with terrorists attacking america?
all things not equal, i will vote for a president who does not declare war on or namecall soverign nations, who does not alienate our country to the world, who does not use scare tactics to hold us in check with "what if's?" to secure america's vote.
i will vote for a man who promises to pay close attention to our allies and to the world, who promises to deal with more serious threats than a country unable to attack america or defend itself, a man who is not a champion of the rich, but who is natural speaker (representing our country accurately and expressing our views to foreign nations is kind of important).
we do not know what will happen if kerry is elected president, if he'll keep his promises or break them like so many others, but one thing is all but certain: we will have four more years of the same with bush as president, and that is not acceptable. |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 8:26:00 PM
|
Kerry: Was there a way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable? You bet there was, and we should have done it right.
What's the "right way"? Lets be honest, the only way to hold Saddam accountable, would've been through a military action. I haven't heard a feasible alternative offered up by Kerry, or anyone else. Regardless of whether it was "right" to remove Saddma or not. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 3:48:36 PM
|
This has become a wonderful thread. Pants Happy and Silky, your posts were beyond informative for me... sometimes it is nice to cut the crap and hear (read) what the bottom line is.
I am quite the undecided voter president and party wise. Even my voter registration is listed as undecided! but it seems like I am not the only one. Our canidates are also undecided!
The debates are going to determine who I will vote for. However, these Thurdays left me more undecided than before. Kerry was by far the more eloquent speaker.... I even dozed off during part of one of Bush's speeches. Bush seemed to be restating the same thing over and over in different context "the world is a better place with out Saddam". It also seemed like if he wasn't say that, he was defending himself against Kerry's words.
Kerry on the other hand told us of plans for the future... I think that Bush's eye rolling and laughing was genuine here and there though... How does Kerry think he will accomplish these things? Borrow money from his wife? That said, if I were to vote by first ladies... Kerry all the way. Teresa is a damn fireball and I would love to see what she would do to DC!
That said... Bush screwed up some things royally. But, many of the soldiers overseas want to be there (yes, I know many don't). They feel like that have a job (and they do!). They are there saving lives and and making millions better. How would you feel to get removed from your job, getting a pat on the back saying "good work", knowing that you did not finish what you started? I of course have no idea what that is like. But I have several millitary friends who cannot wait to go back to serve... to some, it is an honor. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong war? Not to many.
At this point though... i feel it is my right and job to vote. I may just close my eyes and pick one...
That said, Jason... the Poland Bush picture made me laugh my ass off. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 6:02:06 PM
|
I think the important thing to remember when talking about opinions of soldiers is that they are of course really biased (not that anyone isn't biased to begin with). So while many soldiers over there are trying to help and they are just trying to do what they think is right the situation in Iraq is jacked up.
I think the thing that neither Kerry or Bush is willing to bring up that is the only thing that will help Iraq in the long run is the economic situation and democracy bullshit they are doing over there. Firstly the entire Iraq economy was opened up so that now Iraq doesn't even have ownership over much of it's industry. So even if Bush gets the military out sometime in the near future they are still basically being screwed by the corporations that now own the country.
Secondly the next time someone even mentions democracy in Iraq I'm going to go on a rampage because it's not a fucking democracy when you go in to a country and refuse elections that they could have easily set up since people were registered to get food when they were being sanctioned by the US. So the US put in a governing council that did whatever the US wanted them to do and now that they have things set up they offer candidates for the election even though roughly 25% of the Iraqi people won't be voting. So it's not a democracy.
The other thing is that all this talk about disarming Saddam I still have heard nothing about anything being found and have heard no proof that they had these WMD's and were building nukes. So how can you disarm someone that doesn't have arms. The funny thing about all this is that before the war with Iraq allegedlly being such a security threat Kuwait and Iran and all of Iraq's neighbors were not concerned about Iraq being this rogue state that is so dangerous. Consider also that Iraq has invaded Kuwait in the past and had a long war with Iran. Neither of them are concerned though. If anything this war has not made the world a safer place. If I'm north Korea or Iran and I see the way the US has been keeping an eye on me and that now that they invaded Iraq I would be stepping up my weapons program as much as possible. After all the US only invades countries that can't protect themselves and can be crushed easily because they can't sustain a long war like Vietnam especially with a draft. So I'm going to make damn sure that I can deter an attack by getting WMD's.
Then to Arthen I agree that Kerry likes to say that things just weren't done right but at the same time he never has come out and said what the right way was. To me it's a matter that you first have to prove that Saddam had WMD's which has never been done. Or that he was anywhere near close to getting a nuke. So what are we holding Saddam accountable for? Does it not bother anyone that the reasons given to go to war were BS. Now thousands of inoccent people are dead. For what? Weapons? Ya it's good that Saddam is out of power and it's damn good that the sanctions are gone but now I think the country is just a screwed as before. Civil war seems almost unavoidable and the country is torn apart with rebuilding contracts going to US companies. The right way would have been to first actually show some evidence that Saddam had weapons and then there is no doubt that the UN would have given full support to this. So it just seems that holding someone accountable means that they first have to say what they are holding him accountable for. I'm sure almost everyone will disagree with me on this but over the last 10 years the US has been much harder on Iraq then Saddam (sanctions). |
|
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 2:10:07 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
Kerry: Was there a way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable? You bet there was, and we should have done it right.
What's the "right way"? Lets be honest, the only way to hold Saddam accountable, would've been through a military action. I haven't heard a feasible alternative offered up by Kerry, or anyone else. Regardless of whether it was "right" to remove Saddma or not.
i haven't seen an answer to that specific question. i would suggest searching johnkerry.com or calling or mailing your question to :
Kerry-Edwards 2004, Inc.
P.O. Box 34640
Washington, DC 20043
202-712-3000
202-712-3001 (fax)
202-336-6950 (TTY)
if i had to take a stab at it, i would question if kerry would have gone to war at all. wasn't bush the one who started the process, and also the one who saw it through?
kerry has said that al qaeda is the real target, and iraq is not.
he has also said that since we did go to war (the milk was spilled, so to speak), the best way would've been through a much larger coalition. that said, perhaps the right way to hold saddam accountable would've been through sharing the many costs of war, with the capture itself the same, but the other outcomes of the war different because of a different approach.
miss sorrel: you're welcome:')
zachmozach: isn't the whole premise of expecting iraq to become a democracy in a few years itself arrogant and flawed? after all, the world's oldest democracy, the us, has taken over 200 years to get where it is. for a country who has went through such things as the articles of confederation (states as seperate entites unto themselves and little to no national gov't powers), the civil war (the declaration of ind. declared "all men are created equal", but where were the rights of women, slaves, and indians, to name a few?), or even such things as the lack of direct representation (the only national powers that citizens could elect were house representatives. senators were elected by the house until 1913, supreme court justices are chosen by the president, approved by congress, and the president is elected by the electoral colleges(whom we vote for)).
it takes a very, very long time for a democracy to mature, and simply forcing it to be can have devestating results. there are just too many steps trying to be crammed into too few years. |
|
|
|
rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 3:48:27 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by LoveToday
30 minutes in and Bush was making Bush look like a silly bitch.
hahahaha funny shit |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 5:03:58 PM
|
| If Al Qaeda was the real target, why did he vote for the war at all? |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 9:07:13 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
If Al Qaeda was the real target, why did he vote for the war at all?
If I can take this one... He's a douchebag! |
|
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 9:11:44 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by pants_happy
zachmozach: isn't the whole premise of expecting iraq to become a democracy in a few years itself arrogant and flawed?
pants happy I would definitely agree. However I also believe that the people of Iraq should be in charge of their destiny and so I think you have to have something set up at this time to govern, but I'm just saying that the US control of a country isn't democracy and what should have been done a while ago was turning Iraq over to the people of Iraq. I don't know a better way to do that then by having them elect people to do this at this point though. |
|
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2004 : 10:52:26 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zachomozach:
However I also believe that the people of Iraq should be in charge of their destiny...
So then you agree with the removal of Saddam? |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 11:57:43 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
quote:
Originally posted by Zachomozach:
However I also believe that the people of Iraq should be in charge of their destiny...
So then you agree with the removal of Saddam?
No I was more talking like as if the invasion took place and what do they do now? I'm glad the guy no longer in power but the circumstances under which he left power were terrible. The best thing this war did was get rid of sanctions not Saddam. I just don't like it when the US puts someone in power who they know is not going to be a friendly sort of guy and then supports him as he commits war crimes then declares war on him 20 years after those crimes and begins to use them for a reason for war. So when I say Iraqi people should control their own destiny that doesn't mean that I support the US going in and deciding their destiny for them. |
|
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 2:53:39 PM
|
| was anyone else disappointed with the names? i mean "shock and awe" is a great name and everything, but i was neither shocked nor awed by any of it. so you're dropping bombs from planes. maybe if we had taken those prisoners and instead of making a real life yurtle the turtle book, we tied them to the blades on the plane and then flew missions, then i'd be shocked and awed. and "operation iraqi freedom" is awful. not believable and not cool. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 10:12:48 PM
|
| If I were to make my vote based on this current VP Canidate debate (which I am currently distracted from out of the joy of writing about "The next day...")... I would totally have to go for Kerry/Edwards... too bad our Presidential canidates aren't as good of public speakers as out VPs... |
|
|
|
Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 10:44:52 PM
|
| Ok... that's it... Edwards for President. |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 10:53:18 PM
|
| yeah, but kerry's wife a first lady? i'll pass on that. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 12:28:16 AM
|
| I love her! I think that politics could use a woman like her in the background! It's really Teresa and Edwards that are making me lean toward Kerry more than anything... Even my Republican boyfriend is thinking of voting for Kerry, but because he's afraid that if Bush wins... Hillary Clinton will run next term |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 12:35:42 AM
|
I'd vote for Edwards before I voted for Kerry.
Hilary Clinton is a douchebag. She is so disgusting, I would cry if she became the first female president. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 12:39:50 AM
|
| Do be careful my friend... she's getting there! And yes... I think if Edwards got some more Political experience, I'd be proud to vote for him, and even more proud to be middle class! |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 12:55:38 AM
|
| Then I'm one step closer to crying like a seven year old with a skinned knee. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 1:12:48 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
If Al Qaeda was the real target, why did he vote for the war at all?
hmmm... i wonder what your next question would be (the next logical one following the premesis)? perhaps, "then why did he vote against the war?"
if you are really looking for answers, you would've gotten most, if not all of them by watching the debates, because he's stated his reasons for his votes in context, not singularly and out of order like the bush administration makes them out to look like. do some research on your own, even if it is just for the sake of argument.
if you didn't see the debates, or can't remember what was said, then try looking for a transcript of it on the internet (perhaps at pbs, since jim lehrer was the moderator).
if you can't get past said answers simply because you don't believe him, then fine, that's as good a reason as any. but simply using answered bush rhetoric as an attack and not even considering a different perspective is ignorant.
|
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 2:43:59 PM
|
| hahaha. female president. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 9:01:04 PM
|
| I wonder what comes first... a black president or a female president or that we kill oursleves in nuclear war. |
|
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2004 : 03:27:18 AM
|
Well you know, everyday after I shower with Bush Rhetoric Shampoo, I sit down and have a nice bowl of Bush Rhetoric Shampoo. That's why I'm ALWAYS spouting it out.
Please, I ask the question because I don't believe he has provided a good reason. It was a big fuck up on his part to vote for the war. Just because I happen to ask a question that is used by the Bush team, doesn't make it an invalid qustion.
That's like saying no one can question Bush's service record, which is obviously shitty, because John Kerry's team is always talking about it. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2004 : 10:17:38 AM
|
| you eat shampoo? |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2004 : 2:37:36 PM
|
| As long as it's Bush Rhetoric Shampoo. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 2:46:00 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
Well you know, everyday after I shower with Bush Rhetoric Shampoo, I sit down and have a nice bowl of Bush Rhetoric Shampoo. That's why I'm ALWAYS spouting it out.
i could make a case for a strawman argument here, but i'll choose not to...
quote:
Please, I ask the question because I don't believe he has provided a good reason. It was a big fuck up on his part to vote for the war. Just because I happen to ask a question that is used by the Bush team, doesn't make it an invalid qustion.
i never said that using a question posed by the bush administration = an invalid question.
i said:
"if you are really looking for answers, you would've gotten most, if not all of them by watching the debates, because he's stated his reasons for his votes in context, not singularly and out of order like the bush administration makes them out to look like. do some research on your own, even if it is just for the sake of argument.
if you didn't see the debates, or can't remember what was said, then try looking for a transcript of it on the internet (perhaps at pbs, since jim lehrer was the moderator).
if you can't get past said answers simply because you don't believe him, then fine, that's as good a reason as any. but simply using answered bush rhetoric as an attack and not even considering a different perspective is ignorant."
the question has already been asked-and-answered, and it's up to you (the voter) to decide whether you believe him or not. to answer your question about his reasons, i believe kerry was initially for the war because he believed that saddam was a threat, but later against it because of the way bush carried it out (not going to war as a last resort, going to war without an exit strategy, ect.)
quote:
That's like saying no one can question Bush's service record, which is obviously shitty, because John Kerry's team is always talking about it.
no, it's not. all bush has to do is provide conclusive and tangible evidence of the claims he makes about his service, which would prove both him right and his opponents wrong at the same time. kerry on the other hand can do nothing more than state his reasons for his votes, which as of right now, cannot be scientifically proved or disproved.
some other topics to keep in mind:
a partisan website showing a different perspective behind the military budget cut claims against kerry:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127
and a nice little story that should appease the undecided voters:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=3&u=/latimests/20041011/ts_latimes/majorassaultsonholduntilafterusvote |
|
|
|
rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 4:13:17 PM
|
skull and bones...no matter who we vote for we are voting for less freedom.
its the military industrial complex |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 5:47:01 PM
|
"thank god we've got heroes like you/who bravely stride forward when duty calls/just slow enough that people can still whisper in your ear/and if compassion means biting your lip/and posing for the cameras/then bravo! well done/skull and bones"
|
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 1:01:18 PM
|
did anyone else find bush's responses to the questions about the environment and the "name 3 mistakes you've made since you've been president" questions amusing?
for the first one, his response was incoherant rambling of complete question evading bullshit, including his remarks about the hydrogen fueled car (which he eludes to as if he invented the fucking thing). for the second one, the "if history faults me, then i'll take the blame" (but otherwise claim no faults) shows once again how truely arrogant he is. needless to say, i was once again wowed by his incompetence. |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 3:49:38 PM
|
well it's a dangerous question. you can't sit there and openly admit your failures, because that leaves you open to attack from the other side. besides which, that's honesty, and america isn't ready for that yet. at the same time you can't say "i've made no mistakes. not even one. ever." actually, i'd rather like to hear that.
besides, when is anything bush says ever coherent? why would this question be any different, if not more muddled and confusing? |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 5:26:50 PM
|
very true. that's pretty much what brian williams said after the debate.
as for not being coherant, i was reading a book of bushisms yesterday at barnes&noble that was similar to dubyaspeak.com, minus the comments. sometimes even the press don't know what he's saying, as they are forced to ask the question in more simple terms. i sometimes feel sorry for the guy when i hear him speak, but then i remember what a pompous, arrogant, war-mongering, religious zealot, sexist, crack-head, election fixing, slimy corporate-centered screw-up of a president he is.
|
|
|
|
Miss Sorrel
Yak Addict
593 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 9:42:07 PM
|
| i am going to have to vote Kerry if Bush doesn't wipe the spiddle off the coner of his mouth |
|
|
|
therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 10:25:16 PM
|
"She speaks english a whole lot better than I do."
idiot. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 08:51:19 AM
|
I'm looking for any possible reason to like Kerry more (or some alternative) and I simply can't. While I'm generally more on the conservative side, I'm not a huge Bush supporter by any means. Despite the criticisms (while some are valid), I think Bush has held his own in the debates. Kerry, on the other hand has given me absolutely no reason to vote for him. Somehow I don't think I'll be voting based on the fact that someone's more eloquent, or simply because I dislike the current President.
I am SO sick of people that will vote for Kerry because they dislike Bush. 90% of the people I meet instantly say they'll be voting for Kerry, but when I ask them why, 80% of those people immediately start with a Bush criticism. Half of them can't even name the way Kerry stands on any issue (hell, I wonder if Kerry can sometimes). I just want to slap them and say "If you don't like one candidate, find one you like, not just 'something different'". I, for one, think Kerry would be a terrible President.
Still not voting...for lack of a decent candidate. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
Lindalu
Try A Little Harder
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 09:27:19 AM
|
We can let the immigrants in every day to work for 5.15/hour as long as no Americans want those jobs.We can also tell all of those poverty-level children, whose tummies are growling because their single mommies only bring home about 150$/week, that if you go to school, you can afford breakfast in about 15 years (because edumacation is the answer to job loss). Oh- and we'll raise the standards and make the tests harder while we're at it. Oh- and to all of those employees who've been laid off due to outsourcing, your bachelor's and master's degrees that you attained to get those jobs (Kodak workers as a huge example) mean nothing and you should really go back to school. Don't worry, you can put food on your table and gas in your car in another 4 years.W is also going to introduce and guest lecture at your geography classes- he's going to explain to you how Iraq is in Afghanistan(what the hell-they all look the same, don't they?) My favorite line from the first debate-"It's hard work loving this woman, knowing I put her husband in harm's way....and after we prayed and teared up and laughed...." (Bush's compassion towards a soldier's widow).Oh- and W's response to whether or not being gay was a choice-"I don't know...I just don't know". What do you mean you don't know?! All of those scientists, psychologists and sociologists who have time and time again proven that it's a genetic pre-disposition are just blowing smoke? Oh and you've increased the veterans benefits? How many VA hospitals were shut down this year?
My son is 16 years old and if W wins, he'll turn 18 during W's next reign and I don't believe him when he says there will be no draft.This freaks me out like you can't believe!If I sound passionate about politics, it's because I have become that way in the last few years because now it's personal.I work with a couple of idiots that spew comments like "we should just bomb everyone in Iraq to get back at them for bombing the WTC (really! That's almost a word-for-word quote)". All I can say to them is to do me and yourself a favor and do the research or don't vote!I have so much more to say, but I'm getting a little uneasy about how all of this will be recieved, so I'll stop-for now.
Let a gynecologist practice his love on you today!!!! |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 11:15:33 AM
|
is being gay a choice or are you born that way? i'm no scientist or psycologist, but i do know the the answer: it doesn't matter in the least. there is seriously nothing less important than who someone is having sex with. who cares? why is it being discussed? it's not hurting anyone. leave it alone.
i don't know that they'll do the draft. for one thing, the army doesn't want it. and secondly, and we've talked about this before, they'll meet massive resistance if they do. and hopefully it won't be one of those slogan chanting, sign waving resistances. unless the signs double as a battle axe. if your son really doesn't want to go to war, he'll go to jail, or canada, or both. yeah, he'll be marked as a draft dodger, but he'll sure as hell be alive. unless he gets shivved in jail.
cppjames, i'm with you. voting is a lose lose situation. one my professors told me that if i don't vote, i deserve what i get. as if voting is going to put a capable man in office. here are our options: vote in bush, who undeniably sucks. vote in kerry, a man who we have no idea where he stands on anything. or waste your vote on a third party that will never win. yeah. no thanks. i'll save the gas and stay here. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 12:49:17 PM
|
If Kerry is elected, I highly doubt he could do anything substantial to prevent the outsourcing of jobs.
My cousin worked for Earthlink, and in order for him to keep his job, he would have had to move out to Atlanta. He decided not to, so he lost his job. Now, that side of my family constantly bitches about how his job was outsourced to India.
That's not really an argument for or against outsourcing, it's just a funny story about my stupid family. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 1:38:54 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by LindaluAll I can say to them is to do me and yourself a favor and do the research or don't vote!
exactly. i absolutely hated those commercials that said to go out and vote. i mean, if you don't know shit about either candidate, then it's simply a popularity contest and not about who's more qualified. i'm disgusted by people who say "i'm a republican", or "i'm a democrat". does either side always have the better candidate? how about "fuck you guys, i think for myself."
for anyone who's done the research and says "a, b, and c are why i'm voting kerry/bush", all i can say is that you've made the right decision. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 1:40:14 PM
|
Ok I'm going to say this one more time. The facsists have to be taken out of power. Look Bush and the people on his team are really dangerous. They have implemented a new step in foreign policy that Cheney has really bluntly talked aobut in the debates. The reserve the right to pursue an aggressive foreign policy and pre-emptively strike other countries. It's not only immoral but illeagal. It's also sickening to see that people call the president the leader of the world.
The bush adminstration has been taking giant steps towards a perpetual war state in the world. By attacking Iraq and declaring a war on terror they are doing the same thing as people did during the cold war by putting fear into people to control them so they can have consent to impose their will on the world. Not only does this feed the mitlitary industrial complex that makes all their friends rich it gaurantees US control over the riches and resources of the world. The fact that they are resuming the star wars program and moving to militirize space should be alarming to everyone because they are creating an emergency by planning for a war. They also have continued to try to improve the nukes we have.
They also have implemented the unarmed combatant rules so that they can hold literally anyone including civilians without charges. Also you can fire upon unarmed combatants. They are fighting against human rights and against international law that binds them. Look they also have voted against the world court again and again realizing that our generals and the US in general would now have to be held responsible for it's war crimes. The Bush adminstration plain and simple is leading us into a state of perpetual war and a state in which the US dominates the world even more so then now. It's a path to destruction. He also has driven this country into a huge debt and I don't really care what he has to say about Kerry's record on voting or whatever else because he really fucked up this countries finances while making his friends rich. I should say that it's congress' fault too. Since they are really the ones in charge.
Now you know I don't support Kerry. I also know that it's not all that important if I vote since I think Kerry has a lock on Oregon. What this comes down to is that for things to take a change for the better in the US it's going to take a change in the culture of the US. The reason we have two candidates that are complete asses running is because people put them in there by voting for them in primaries and Bush won his in 2000. So the reason these candidates are so shitty is because the american system is so shitty and that these are the best people the system could produce. So what everyone needs to do is to try to have an influence on the people around them and educate yourselves as much as possible so that people will break away from the pop culture here in the US and begin to think for themselves. Escape the propaganda and help others to see some of the light of what a future the earth could have.
Contining on at this rate where we continue the addiction to petro chemicals that fuel our society is bringing us closer to doomsday. You have to realize that once these resources become so scarce that we can no longer fuel our agriculture and foods services that are based from petro chemicals there is going to be some real problems. If we also continue to throw poisions into the earth like it's a bottemless pit and destroy nature the earth will no longer be able to support human life. This huge population the earth has built up will be wiped out. Not only in a couple hundred years could we have wiped out all the other species living in the wild and the few cultures that still live in the bounds of nature but we could ensure human extinction.
Bush is propelling us towards this faster than I think Kerry will. That's the only thing Kerry has done to deserve my vote. If things are to change it will change from the ground up not by electing in someone who is going to take care of everything. If you are comfortable with the steps the Bush adminstration has taken in foreign policy and also domestic policy you need to do some more research or have your head examend. You just have to ask yourself where the human race will be in 100 years if Bush or others like him continue to make steps to ensure war throughout the world. Examine his policies and you'll see that that's what they are creating is a US dominated world by fueling our industry through war just like the Romans did and you'll see the same results. Another dark age. Everyone should read Dark Age Ahead by Jane Jacobs. It's a strong case to show that we are headed in this direction. Thus ends my rant... |
|
|
|
|
GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 2:15:08 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
I am SO sick of people that will vote for Kerry because they dislike Bush.
Ladies and gentlemen: Dave Matthews.
Adam |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 4:23:37 PM
|
| zach, i tell you what. i think that's a little extreme. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 9:51:28 PM
|
| Check out the project for a new american century and that's what you'll say that is. It's a little extreme. Man is going to be extinct if we don't change the way we live. It's just a matter of when. All I'm saying is that Bush is taking us there faster then I think Kerry would. |
|
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 10:30:09 PM
|
| i'm always a little dubious when i hear these alarmist type things. i think we'll be just fine for quite some time. and if we won't, then there's not going to be anything that will mourn the loss. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:20:10 AM
|
| Man will become extinct. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:18:29 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by GuitarGuy305
Ladies and gentlemen: Dave Matthews.
LOL, as unfortunate as that is, you're exactly right. I didn't go to the vote for change tour, because the name says it all. It'd be one thing if there was a great candidate that I fully supported and they were touring based on support for someone...but essentially it was an anti-Bush bash.
I watched the final show online and you could hear the boos when DMB left stage, which I assume are from Bush supporters. In an effort to show my non-extreme conservative side, I think that's stupid. You're at basically a glorified Kerry rally with music, either suck it up or don't go.
I'm getting sick of protesters. If you're that passionate, take it to a voting booth or to a court of law. Otherwise get your irritating noise and cheesy slogans out of my way. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:53:30 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
[quote][i]
Otherwise get your irritating noise and cheesy slogans out of my way.
pick-a-pack-of-fire-crack-ers sis boom bah. bugs bunny, bugs bunny, rah rah rah! |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:53:49 PM
|
that sounds about right, except for the voting part. people have explained protesting before, but i still don't get it. if you want change, that's the reason you're protesting, but you know protesting doesn't change anything. so. . .what's the deal there? i've heard a lot of people say it's to raise awareness about how they feel. we know. we don't care. the cutesy slogans and those adorable little signs, i'd say they only grate my nerves a little. but if i'm driving somewhere and your nonsense gets in my way, that's unacceptable. do your thing if it means that much to you, but don't drag me into it. leave everyone alone. if we wanted to, we'd be there with you.
take it to the voting booths. yeah, we did that last time, as i recall. fat lot of good that did. let's look at our options. we have the returning champ, bush. oh. he's a real treat, isn't he? we know he sucks. then we have kerry, and i don't trust this fucker at all. how could you? listen to him real carefully when he talks in the debates. i have no idea where he stands on anything. nothing he says means anything. and then you have third party candidates, which is like not voting except you have to go to the booths to get your not voting done. give me candidate worth my vote, and i'll vote for him. i wouldn't buy a substandard product, and i won't vote for a substandard leader. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:57:04 PM
|
| doesn't jesus usually get about 3000 votes a year? there's your trustworthy leader dan. and you know where he stands on things. |
|
|
|
pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 1:18:36 PM
|
| haha. christ! and you thought bush was destroying the seperation of church and state. at least no one will bother assassinating him. we already know you can't kill the son of a bitch. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 2:08:01 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
haha. christ! and you thought bush was destroying the seperation of church and state. at least no one will bother assassinating him. we already know you can't kill the son of a bitch.
More random tangents...
As far as separation of Church and State goes, it was designed to keep the State out of the Church, not the Church out of the State (i.e. preventing a "national" religion, preventing infringing on someone's relgious liberties, etc.). Any documents referring to the concept from that era will confirm that. I think it's one of the most misused political arguments ever.
This whole not allowing prayer in schools is bullshit. Granted, I certain don't feel that children should be obligated to pray. Allowing it in no way infringes on the meaning behind the separation of Church and State.
As far as the whole "one nation under God", the bibles in courtrooms, the inscriptions at the Supreme Court, etc., that gets a little sketchier...but these people that take cases all the way to the supreme court because they don't like their kid having to say "under God" is insanity. It's amazing that people have nothing better to do with their time.
Next thing you know someone will use separation of Church and State as some twisted defense in a murder case. They'll claim that murder is related to the 10 commandments and it therefore religious, blah blah blah.
America's been proving Darwin's natural selection theory wrong for the past 100 years. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 6:35:28 PM
|
james, once again i find myself almost, but not quite, agreeing with you.
the "under god" thing. people got so pissed about it. so pissed. buy let's step back a second. yes, i guess you can call that a violation. but it still doesn't matter. don't like it? don't say it. it couldn't be less simple. you don't even have to say the pledge, really. so why get pissed about something in a statement you don't have to say? it doesn't matter. it's been around for 40 years. it didn't matter then. it doesn't now.
prayer in schools is something else that isn't important. if you want to say some prayers at one point during the day, say some fucking prayers. but keep it individual. don't have the teacher lead or anything, but if you think you need to say a prayer at one point, no one should stop you. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 7:53:55 PM
|
Guess I don't see the disagreement, heh. I agree with what you said. I wouldn't mind a teacher leading an optional prayer group or something along those lines. If something is optional, what's the question? No one's forcing you to do anything. It doesn't harm you. I can understand not using the school for organized religious activities in off hours, or if the school catered to certain religions (or a religion at all).
If it harms you in no way shape or form (including miniscule amounts of tax dollars), what the hell is the point in bitching about it? |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 9:38:27 PM
|
Ya ok well for some one like me who is the anti-christ I think relgion should be kept as far away from state as possible. It has nothing to do with it. Our nation under god doesn't belong in the pledge. We are not a relgious nation. Prayer in school. Really who is going to know if you bow your head and start praying unless you are praying out loud. If someone wants to pray that's there thing and they should go for it. But I think it better be a private thing and no optional teacher led BS. They have no part in teaching a relgion unless they are teaching a comparitive religion class. It's discrimination. If they pray one way they beter damn well pray every way and bring in there carpets to pray to allah and do some buddhist stuff and pray to Baal as well and don't forget the satan worship. Religion has not part in government and visa versa. Why you think that the constitution when it says seperation of church and state really means government stay out of relgion but religion is fine in government is beyond me.
However you realize that the whole murder thing would never happen. Look there is an idea that man has had for a while. Don't even try to tell me jesus invented it. It's the golden rule and it's what ethics is based from is that whole hypocritical thing. It will never happen. People didn't just get morals from religion. |
|
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 9:46:06 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i'm always a little dubious when i hear these alarmist type things. i think we'll be just fine for quite some time. and if we won't, then there's not going to be anything that will mourn the loss.
Look this isn't a scare tactic or just some alarming piece of BS. How long is man going to be able to continue to live like this. We are seriously fucking up the earth and I think that if we continue in this way with our effects on the enviroment increasing exponentially over time due to population growth that we will make earth uninhabitable. As to when this would happen I think it's a good idea to see how much more screwed things are now than a hundred years ago and then compare that to the last hundred years etc. Things are getting worse faster. So I don't think it's unreasonable to put give a prognosis that man will be around for only another 250 years max. |
|
|
|
|
Lindalu
Try A Little Harder
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 10:33:09 PM
|
| CPPJames- I had to chuckle (just a little)....At the end of DMB at the vote for change concert,they weren't "booing", they were chanting "Bruuuuce". Sorry, had to lighten things up a little. |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:34:34 PM
|
if you really think man has that much effect on the earth. i think the earth is stronger than you give it credit for, and that we're weaking than we give us credit for.
the earth is a self-correcting system. if we were to move, for example, from the current greenhouse effect that's responsible for life here at all, to a runaway greenhouse effect, the earth will correct itself over time. it's possible the ice caps, melted by the warmer temperatures created by releasing co2 from fossile fuel into the atmosphere, will result in increased surface area and levels of the oceans, with reduced salinity. evaporation rates increase with sruface area and increased temperature, resulting in more clouds, who's high albedo reflects much sunlight. precipitation at the poles falls as snow, and the ocean, with the reduced salinity, freezes at higher temperatures anyway. that's not really a complete picture, but you get the idea. ultimately the earth rights itself. we may die, but the earth will be just fine. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 1:07:12 PM
|
Look Bush isn't doing it all but him and his buddies policies are working towards the end of the world. I'm also not near as worried about the greenhouse effect as I am the worlds shrinking supply of drinking water. The oil production throughout the world has peaked as well. So how much longer is oil going to be readily available to those who need it? We won't run out any time soon but it's not going to be able to continue to fuel our economy and support the population. Just take a look at the food industry alone and how it will be effected. The world has some serious issues to face and here you have some jackass and his buddies in powerful position working towards a state of perpetual war and keeping america addicted to petro-chemicals. The continued development of nukes and the militirization of space should really open peoples eyes.
The earth will surrvive unless we blow it up with nukes but humans have no chance unless we change the way we've lived for the past 10,000 years. |
|
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 7:49:21 PM
|
| nukes are the only thing that concern me a little. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 09:07:30 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lindalu
CPPJames- I had to chuckle (just a little)....At the end of DMB at the vote for change concert,they weren't "booing", they were chanting "Bruuuuce". Sorry, had to lighten things up a little.
You could hear subtle boos when he came on stage for sure. I realize the Bruce thing but even during the time between songs I could hear some people moaning. Oh well.
Most people would agree that humans aren't born with morals. Hence we have Mother Theresa and Charles Manson. People are a product of their environment. Why is murder wrong? Do you honestly believe that a child, born and left to its own devices until it reaches a mature age, would have the same "moral" beliefs as someone who was raised in a Christian or Buddhist household? Certainly not. I, for one, don't believe that a human being knows or feels that murder is wrong unless they are cultured to feel that way. Guilt is not instinctual. While morality and religion are certainly not one and the same, they're very much related...and to suppress the expression of religious beliefs is absurd.
Allowing people to express their religious beliefs in any context should be acceptable. To say that optional prayer in schools should be banned is just bizarre. How is it harming anyone? If you're a buddhist and all they have is a Christian prayer group, then start a Buddhist one. As long as you're not "discriminating" (God that word symbolizes almost everything I hate about this country), what's the problem?
This whole "oh my God I'm being discriminated against"/frivolous lawsuit crap is half of what's wrong with this country. Next thing you know people will sue when turned down for a job because they're discriminating against the less intelligent. Alright, enough ranting...back to work. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 6:12:21 PM
|
what i think it ultimately comes down to, what cppjames is driving at is simply this: just quit crying. the only thing i don't agree with it allowing a teacher lead prayer. not because it's discriminatory, but just because it's a waste of fucking time. the teacher is there to teach the kids, and chances are they can barely do that anyway. keep it out of the classroom. that's learning time.
but let's suppose it's allowed. non-mandatory. first of all, maybe the teacher doesn't want to and it doesn't get done. but if it is, as long as the kid knows what he or she believes, or doesn't as the case may be, what the hell does it matter? he'll probably just finish some homework he should have done last night. if you know what you believe, that's all that matters. and if you don't, then that's a problem you need to work out. stop shrieking every time someone mentions god in a public place. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 8:49:13 PM
|
Ok ya the thing with prayer is it should have nothing to do with school. If people want to pray or start a prayer group that's fine with me but it shouldn't be an in class thing or anything like that. It's just a matter of that they don't teach it in school and all. What people do on there own time or by them self is fine. Or people want to get together in a group ok. Just it can't have anything to do with the school organization.
As for morals and culture... Everyone no matter what is brought up into a culture that teaches you a right way to live. While people may differ about certain things that are right and wrong like abortion or whatever the fundamental things are usually pretty damn close inside the culture. Like there are very few who believe murder or theft is fine. It's just basic ethics that follow the golden rule. It's a cultural thing and not a religious thing. Religous morals go beyond everyone's basic right way to live ideas by stating that certain border line things like abortion or whatever is wrong. That's a belief from religion not ethics for most people.
As for the discrimination stuff the problem is the discrimination not the complaining. Ya sure there's a lot of people out for money and are a little ridiculous but the problem with civil rights wasn't people whining even though most of the country wished those "coloreds would stay in their place and quit causing so much toruble." I just am sick of people saying that they should be able to do this or that because other people shouldn't be offended by it. Like if a teacher were to lead a prayer in school everyone else should chill out and if they don't want to participate that's fine. That's ridiculous. I am not religious and I don't want to hear that shit in school because it has nothing to do with it just like most people wouldn't want to hear someone worshiping satan. |
|
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 09:01:16 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
Ok ya the thing with prayer is it should have nothing to do with school. If people want to pray or start a prayer group that's fine with me but it shouldn't be an in class thing or anything like that.
I don't know if I said this, and if I didn't, I am remiss...but I don't believe a teacher should lead a prayer in class at all. I completely agree with you there. I'm just saying if a teacher/group of students want to have a collective prayer during a break at school or after hours, without using additional school resources, I don't see any problem with it whatsoever.
I'm not an overly religious guy myself, catholic school since I was in Kindergarten, but never catholic. I wouldn't participate in prayer groups, I believe that prayer/religion is a deeply personal thing and have never been a large fan of organized religion. Regardless, I support other peoples' right to express their beliefs anyway they want, so long as it doesn't affect others.
And you're right Dan, I'm sick of the whining. If we catered to every group that felt they were discriminated against, we'd all be pretty screwed. I realize discrimination isn't something that directly affects me very often, being a white American male, and that there are very obvious times when discrimination is a blatently bad thing that should be handled accordingly. I'm just sick of people looking for every excuse in the book to sue someone or whine about how the white man is holding them down.
Take welfare for example. What a joke. Yes, I realize there are people out there that can't get jobs and are legitimately trying. Good for them, and I have no problem assisting them. Then there's the people with 14 kids, no motivation to get a job and I have to pay their tax burden. Sorry, not a fan. The concept of workfare is one I support. Like I said, I have absolutely no problem footing the bill for someone who's legitimately trying to get work. It's the ones that sit on their couches all day and collect checks while I'm working that piss me off.
I have a lot of friends that come from "wealthy" backgrounds. For the most part they're good guys. But when I hear that one of them is collecting unemployment checks because he was laid off (when he should have been fired) and driving his BMW around, I have a SERIOUS problem with that. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 11:43:44 AM
|
i don't have a specific problem with wellfare. obviously some people are going to just sit back and not even bother looking for work. that's something i expect, because every system can be exploited. i'd be a little taken back if no one did. you obviously can't just stop welfare because of a couple jerks.
i worked at a grocery store, and a lot of times i'd get a woman with wic checks. i'm fine with that, too. the only time i get a little miffed is when a single mom comes through, with like 8 checks and as many kids. one will be like 12, the other a couple years younger and so on. and then there's usually an infant or a toddler, too. the kids are usually acting like monsters, too. i understand if the father dies or leaves the family, but if you can't afford 1 kid, why have 4 more? just stop having kids. not having kids is real easy. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 12:58:22 PM
|
Ya it sucks when people just sit around on there ass and do nothing and get checks and it does happen. The problem is is that I know people in this situation and I don't give a shit about the parents but the kids are who I'm concerned about. The idea is that the kids will be able to have some opportunities to get out of that situation when they come of age. Welfare is a good program overall though. It helps a lot of people. Considering more than one of my friends basically wouldn't have been able to eat growing up without assistance tells me it's helping. Now it's got it's flaws and all and it's not really attacking the root of the problem (poverty), but that won't happen until things fundementally change considering there have been poor people since our history can remember. It's usually the parents that piss me off no matter if they are nice people. What business do they have having all these kids with no money? Ya sure some get stuck with 4 but after that come on.
Oh and James I think were clear now on the prayer thing. We agree on what you said in that last post. |
|
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 3:17:58 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
because every system can be exploited.
Good point. I know that it's not possible to have a perfect system, it's just frustrating (i.e. the situation you mentioned). Sometimes I get my paycheck and just start blankly at the amount taken out in tax and wonder how much of that is wasted.
Fundamentally, I'm a republican. I'm not your typical right wing all the way kinda guy. I just tend to be a little more on the conservative side. For a few pretty simple reasons.
1.) Less government. I believe a government should exist to do things that people cannot do individually. Build roads, run the military, establish/enforce laws, keep the peace, etc. Nothing more. I favor spending on defense, without it we're sitting ducks. This does not translate to a blanket support of war (including the current one).
2.) I think taxes are way too high and that people are constantly being forced to support others, indirectly, through taxes. Keyword: forced. I don't believe that someone should *have* to give a part of their paycheck (no matter how miniscule) to someone else. That should be a matter of choice. I consider myself a nice guy and I'll help my neighbor in any way that I can, but I don't believe that I should be forced to. When 1/4 of my paycheck is out the door in federal taxes alone, you can rest assured that the governmental necessities were covered a long time ago.
3.) The government can't legislate morality. It simply doesn't work. You can't make someone obey the rules, you can't make them "nice". You have to set standards, and punish accordingly. I fully support the death penalty (obviously in extreme cases only), but I'd have no problem flipping the switch on a serial rapist or a child molester.
4.) I do think that the concept of trickle down economics works in the long run, I just think that we've never had a long enough run for it to work. It's always democrat/republican/democrat/republican going in every 4-8 years and undoing everything the other one did. I do support big business as it obvious gives the consumer good prices and creates thousands of jobs. As much as it sucks for the mom & pop places, in the long run for urban/suburban areas, it's helping.
Anyway, all this partisan crap gives me a headache. Back to the lecture at hand. Still can't vote. Bush isn't nearly strong enough and Kerry would be a disaster. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 4:20:50 PM
|
| the fact that anyone gets "stuck with kids" at all is absurd. it totally blows my mind. if you can't afford to have a child, don't fucking have a child. there's nothing more to it than that. the best way to not have a kid is not have sex. yes, that's possible. you can do that. all it takes is some self-control. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 4:29:42 PM
|
James I feel ya on the taxes but still you shouldn't be mad that you have to pay your taxes you should just be pissed at what the government does with them. How they control the economy and all that. I mean it sucks that they'll give corporate handouts left and right and continue to keep the high tech business in full swing by paying for their research for things that are nice, but insignificant with all the problems going on. If you consider that with all the money spent on healthcare in the government they can't make it so that half of the people in this country have no healthcare. We pay for so much stuf that we don't get like decent schools and healthcare and look at our military budget and aid to countries and our foreign policy. It's got us spread out across the world in everyone's government (it's been this way before Bush too) in places we shouldn't be. We pay for all of that.
The fundamental role of the government is to protect people. In our government it's suppposed to protect everyone. It would be great to not have to pay the government money for welfare and all that other stuff and if people would just take care of each other unregulated. The problem is that people don't so with government we are all consenting to work together. Government isn't in and of itself a bad thing. It can be a good thing if it involves people working together for the good of each other and playing their roles. The problem is that our government has slipped a long ways from that. The fact is that people that are just middle class or the rich don't go giving their money to poor or try to help them for the most part.
You don't have to pay either but you'll go to jail. Same with me. I could not pay taxes because I don't want to support war but I'll just end up in jail. So you consent even if it's by force. You just have to change things. Considering what our government has been doing over the last hundred years making a few people rich it is the governments job to protect people whether it's by sharing the wealth or giving someone somewhere to live.
I don't think I have time to tell you how far off you are on economics though. One thing money trickles up not down. The guy at the top is making the most profit and thus he begins to collect more and more money. Look at the widening gap between rich and poor. That's fundamental. Having a few really rich corporations or big business in no way does a good job of spreading wealth. You're just way off. |
|
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 4:42:17 PM
|
i don't see why anyone cares about mom and pop places being pushed out by big business. you're nothing more than potential profits to both. why should you care about a mom and pop place when all they're ultimately interested from you is money?
i don't know about you, but i love wal-mart. whoever they're employing and what they're doing to local business is not my concern. my money either goes one place or the other. except less of my money usually goes to wal mart because it's cheaper. and everything's all right there. it's not like mom and pop places are helpless anyway. i don't do most of my grocery shopping at wal mart because they don't carry a lot of things i like. they have all the shitty beef jerky, for example. and the deli at the other place, privately owned, that i go to, is way better. way. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 7:29:30 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i don't know about you, but i love wal-mart. whoever they're employing and what they're doing to local business is not my concern. my money either goes one place or the other. except less of my money usually goes to wal mart because it's cheaper. and everything's all right there. it's not like mom and pop places are helpless anyway. i don't do most of my grocery shopping at wal mart because they don't carry a lot of things i like. they have all the shitty beef jerky, for example. and the deli at the other place, privately owned, that i go to, is way better. way.
I don't particularly care for Walmart, but I don't have a problem with it. Big business runs this country. Yes, the rich get richer, but so what? If they're providing us with a service we need at a very low/efficient cost, by all means! Sorry mom & pop, it's $5 cheaper at Walmart. Case closed. If you want to support the mom & pop stuff, go for it.
As far as trickle down economics being "way off", look at the unemployment rate in this country. It isn't because of Bush. It's because of Clinton. Everyone LOVES Clinton because the economy was great during his presidency. He walks into office and 3 months later the economy's in full swing. Do people honestly think that he made such stunning changes to economic policy in the 2.5 months he was in office that the entire economy turned around? No. We were reaping the rewards of the previous tax cuts that took four years to get into place. The same thing will happen if Kerry gets elected.
The economy is a year or so away from taking a huge turn for the better...because of the support for big business. All the jealous poor people hate big business because they see that one guy at the top (Bill Gates for example) and think they somehow "deserve" a piece of the pie. Screw you. When you invent/market an operating system that has such market penetration that you basically can't use anything else, come talk to me. This is America, the land of opportunity.
As much as some staunch Republicans piss me off, the hardcore Democrats make me sick. This may sound alarmist, but so be it...I think they're one step away from Communism. Now before you go ripping me apart and calling me Joe McCarthy, take a look at far left wing democratic policy and the "ideals" of Communism. They're incredibly similar. Tax the people that have more money than average and give it to those who don't have "enough" (and they decide what's enough). So, pretty soon you have a flattening of the economic system to a point where everyone's equal. How they can penalize someone for making a really nice living for themselves and essentially say "you HAVE to give back" is beyond me.
Inheritance tax is bullshit, income level based taxing is bullshit, extra taxes levied on big business are bullshit, equal opportunity is bullshit, basically everything is bullshit. The government feels that it's fair to take an ENORMOUS chunk of the money my parents leave me because my father made a decent living and busted his ass for years and years. That's stellar. Wonder where that's going.
As much as the guy would have been about the worst President ever, I can't help but think back to Forbes' flat tax. How the hell can you argue that? Everyone's taxed the exact same amount for every dollar they earn. If you get a paycheck for $100 every two weeks, you get a little bit taken out. If you get a paycheck for $100,000,000 a week, you get a lot taken out. It's all proportional, and those who make more, pay more...but it's not disproportional. I have yet to hear an argument that can even remotely challenge the flat tax that isn't some BS whining about big business and how Bill Gates has it better than them. Your damn right he has it better than you, and for good reason.
/rant
|
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 9:38:52 PM
|
| presidents have less to do with the economy that everyone thinks they do. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 9:54:56 PM
|
Ok first of all James the unemployment rates have a lot to do with a hit that the economy took after 9-11. Now these tax cuts you said went in to place before Clinton I would like to know a little bit more aobut them. As I recall Bush I raised taxes after the promise not to of course. I however don't profess some huge knowledge about the petty political BS that the media concentrates on like that. Then please elaborate on how Clinton caused the unemployment rate we have now or whatever else. Then anytime someone wants to talk to me about how great the economy was under Clinton I always realize how little they know about economics. I'm no expert, but I at least have common sense.
Back in the latest boom what you saw was profits going through the roof and that's basically what people where using as there measure of the economy. However how can you say an economy is booming when the median (not average) wage continues a steady decline. How can you call the economy booming when the seperation of the Rich and Poor increases. So when you talk about the economy taking a huge turn for the better you can apply the same things to this so called boom or increase. The median wage is lower now then it was in 1979. That's how good our economy is doing.
Now before I go off on your free market BS doctrines I'd like to point out one little thing. The US has no free market. It's all controlled! If you don't already know that you have some research to do. Ever hear of a subsidy. IBM and thus Bill Gates would not be shit if it weren't for government paying for all the R&D that went into developing these computers and the high tech field in general. Then they hand the developments over to corporations to make profits. So socialism is cool for big business but fuck the poor because those complaing bastards need to stay in there place because they just don't work hard for their money. Everyone deserves a level playing filed man. Sure it's never going to be perfect but still the people I know that work hardest are poor. The well off people I know I have easy jobs. They were just able to go to school and had slightly higher intelects so they obviously deserve a better life? I mean it's about opportunity as much as work if not more. The oppurtinuty you speak of is great but not everyone has it sorry to burst your bubble but it's not realistic. I mean in capitalist society there has to be a poor and rich for it to work at all and anyone who has studied the system especially the history of capitalism would know that.
Then you want to go into communism. First I have to ask if you have ever read the communist manifesto or anything in depth by Marx? If you haven't then quit talking about communism. You already are indoctrinated to think that communism is the plague of the earth. Like most americans have. Your history teacher lied to you though. I mean there has never been a communist system on this earth ever! Why you think that it's cool for the government to give money to big business so that they can make a killing profit wise off of America is just beyond me. That's the way it works. I mean explain to me how you are ok with the government giving money to people who are already rich and subsidizing their business but you can't stand to be forced to give money to people who need it? It just blows my fucking mind. Communism basically is a system that would stop anyone from being able to put themselves over someone else by capital gaines and stops exploitation of people. However there just hasn't been communism set up on this earth yet.
Flat tax is a damn good idea. Because the Rich would actually have to start paying there share. Ya I know rich pay more than anyone else capital wise but not on the percentage. Rich people pay less percentage wise then the average joe. It would be great if they could pay a flat percentage of what they earned.
Now do yourself a favor and read some Zinn. The Peoples History of the US and The Zinn Reader are good places to start. Also War and Terror is a good one. Then just start reading some Chomsky specifically profit over people, Mis-Education, The indespensible Chomsky, Manufacturing Consent, and Hegemony or Surrvival. You won't be able to bust out of the prison of thought you're in till you see the prison man. I'm not trying to be a dick either I'm just saying you need to study some stuff out. I've done pretty extensive reading and research into political theory and the politacal science field and would welcome anything you have to offer for reading suggestions. I just think your view is pretty limited. |
|
|
|
|
tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 04:35:13 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
The other thing is that all this talk about disarming Saddam I still have heard nothing about anything being found and have heard no proof that they had these WMD's and were building nukes.
I found this book on Amazon.com. It sounds like a good one to read if you want an insider's account of Iraq's nuclear goals:
From the Inside Flap: No one knows more about Iraq’s nuclear weapons program than Mahdi Obeidi, the man who headed its successful uranium enrichment effort. In the immediate, chaotic aftermath of the 2003 war in Iraq, Obeidi contacted the arms inspectors he had been forced to lie to for so many years, and voluntarily turned over the key plans and parts to U.S. intelligence. Among the revelations reported by the international media at the time: In the early 1990s, under orders to hide the core of the program from UN weapons inspectors, Obeidi had buried in his backyard garden the critical elements necessary to build uranium-enriching gas centrifuges. What he turned over to U.S. intelligence in the summer of 2003 proved to be the entire remains of a program put on hold since the last Gulf War. Now, at last, Obeidi tells all, taking us inside Saddam’s regime and revealing the truth about its quest for nuclear weapons. He captures in nail-biting detail what life was like directly under Saddam’s watchful eye–the intimidation, the paranoia, the impossible deadlines...
Read more at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0471679658/reviews/102-1257814-6591303#04716796585010 |
|
|
|
Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 2:05:03 PM
|
| Sounds like a very interesting book... |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:10:41 PM
|
of all the writers and speakers the lefties like to toss around, mr. zinn is probably the only one i have respect for. the man knows his shit. he's seen it, he's lived it. i'm always glad to hear what he has to say.
few things are more absurd than seeing someone on the right call someone on the left a communist or socialist. or someone claiming to be one of those. we're all capitalists. all of us. do you buy things in america? or have you sold something in america? capitalist. you are partaking in a capitalist system whether you like it or not. there are no socialists in america because we're all, perforce, unless you want to find a socialist country and go there, doing capitalist things. a violin player who doesn't like violin but really wants to play piano isn't a piano player. he's a violin player. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
|
|
dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:52:15 PM
|
| amusing. |
death to false metal. |
|
|
|
Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 11:06:05 PM
|
rubylith I've seen stuff about this before but that was way detailed and thanks for posting it.
Tericee I'll have to check out that book. This guy Obeidi isn't the guy that was living in the US though was he? I remember reading something about the head nuclear scientist that Iraq had was thorugh this whole build up to the war living in the US. The thing that I want to make clear for everyone is that I realize that Iraq had a weapons program. However not weapons as far as anyone has been able to prove. That's where inspections and working through the normal proccess. One key thing though "What he turned over to U.S. intelligence in the summer of 2003 proved to be the entire remains of a program put on hold since the last Gulf War." I'll definitely put this book on hold though at the library. |
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Presidential Debates
