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Originally posted by Zachmozach

As far as using other modes which may contain notes that aren't in the key you're playing. There will always be some level of dissenence, but dissenence is not always a bad thing. It figure out how to use dissenence that becomes hard to explain. Like if you look at any good jazz player they will constantly be leaving the key that is dominating at the time. A lot of the sound of Jazz and especially bop is playing a line using the same type of chord like a minor third above the currently sounding chord. You can also do this at a dimished fifth. Or superimposing a diminished chord over the Dominant or fifth just a major third higher. Thus for G you would play a B dim like... x2313x It's stuff that is used in jazz constantly.

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Originally posted by Zachmozach

I'll try to show you some cool lines for a C Maj7. If you can loop in a cool rythym of C do it and then play some of this over it.
notice the b and # 9's on this one
E----------------------------------7-10-
B-----8-6-11-9-8-----------------8------
G----------------10-9--7-------9--------
D-5-6---------------------9h10----------
A---------------------------------------
E---------------------------------------

E-8---7---------------------------------
B---9---10-8h10p8-6-8-4-5---------------
G-------------------------5-------------
D---------------------------5s4---3---2-
A-------------------------------6---5---
E---------------------------------------

E---------------3-6h7p6p4-3---------
B-------3-----5-------------4-------
G-----4---4-5-----------------4-----
D-2-5---------------------------6-5-
A-----------------------------------
E-----------------------------------

E-7-6-5-4-3-----------------
B-----------5-3-------------
G---------------5-4-3-2-1-0-
D---------------------------
A---------------------------
E---------------------------

The last one is a prime example of passing tones and the gravity effect. Hopefully by playing through some of those lines you can start to hear how you can use notes out of the key to add to the lines. It should give you and idea of what sounds good I hope. Those lines should work in the progression as well.

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Originally posted by Zachmozach

Basically though if you were to play a Lydian over C you would have a #4 and that would sound dissonant somewhat except for you are going straight to the G or 5th. So if you superimpose any mode over a chord which isn't the mode that chord would represent you'll get something that's out of key. It's basically coming to the point of understanding that when you use a #4 you over the tonic (or root) you are using a lydian mode. I hope that makes sense and if it didn't I'll try to explain it better. Hopefully I said something useful too.

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Originally posted by JemezFoodPeople

I think that when we play solos, we play music, not scales or modes. ya know?

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Originally posted by Erich

so youre saying that using a #4 before resolving to a 5th is basicaly using the lydian mode with just an additional raised 4th? which i liked doing, since the #4 in the F F# G kind of added this magnetic pull towards the G, made it resolve nicer.

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Originally posted by JemezFoodPeople

i say: listen to the pregression so many times that you hear a melody in your head without even holding the guitar. then figure out how to play it. ocne you have mastered your imaginary melody, deviating from it will seem as natural as changing from C to G.
I think that when we play solos, we play music, not scales or modes. ya know?

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Originally posted by CPPJames

LOL, all kidding aside, I've had basically the same question as Erich. The problem I ran into, is that a books list/name things differently, and I'm extremely analytical. So when one book says that D E F G A B C is mode of C major and another says it's a mode of D (with a flattened 3rd and 7th), I get confused as hell. I think that's Dorian (can't remember the name, but it's irrelevant here anyway). So, assuming it IS Dorian, some books say it's D dorian, others say it's C dorian. So when a book says "play C dorian" I never know which they mean.

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Originally posted by Zachmozach

I think to hopefully add to what Jemez said is that it's good to be able to hear what you want to play and then transfer it. When you're studying theory though it's not about playing it's about explaining. The best way to learn theory is not just to know it on paper but to be able to hear it.

Like I know guys that can tell you about the modes and basic theory and how chords are built etc. But if I sit down at a piano tell them not to look and play a chord they can't tell me what kind of chord I'm playing as far as minor or dim etc. I think when we listen to music we hear things we could play all the time. Like I always scat when listening to jazz or funk almost uncontrollablly. It's hard to get to the point were you have the vocab to be able to play like that. That's why I suggested playing through a few lines (which I ripped from Joe Pass BTW) because it should get you to hear the lines while you're playing your guitar. That way you get extra vocab because your brain will connect the sound with the notes. Let me just say you don't need to think when you play and that is why it's so important to just internilize theory through sound.

The Joe Pass on guitar book I picked up a while ago was so valuable to me. I would sit down and just play his lines and just by doing that it has allowed me to hear what I need to play and just play it cause I built up my vocab. Besides the fact that it made melodies flow from me without thought. I just sit down and hear jazz lines and start playing them. Also sing when you play every once in a while I find it helps to train you're brain and fingers.

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Originally posted by Zachmozach

Well it's a D Dorian or the Dorian mode of C(as in the key of C). If a book says it's C dorian then that's not right. That's really bad because it could confuse the hell out of the learner.

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Originally posted by Erich

and thats completely wrong. the only modes in the key of C are:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

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Originally posted by CPPJames

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Originally posted by Erich

and thats completely wrong. the only modes in the key of C are:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

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Right, and I was beyond pissed off when I finally figured that out. I had no basis in theory at all, so I believed everything verbatim. Book in question is the Guitar Handbook by Denyer.

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Originally posted by Erich

Im speaking theoreticaly here

Ive got a simple chord progression:

C G Am F Dm C

its in the key of C.

Now, if i were to do a solo over this, the C Ionian (major) mode would sound fine, as would, I assume, any of the other relative modes of C (A Aeolian over the Am, or D Dorian over the Dm, for instance).

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my question: would any parallel modes work over the progression at any time? Like, would I theoreticaly be able to play a solo using C Phrygian over the C and have it not sound dissonent?

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Originally posted by Poparad

I think you were confused by the way he described it. I agree that it is confusing, but he wrote "... mode IN the key of C" and not "... mode OF the key of C." Confusing yes, but there is a slight difference.

When it comes to labelling modes, there's only one method you really need to know since it's the only one commonly used. That method is writting it like "D dorian" or "Bb lydian" or "G Mixolydian." Each of those modes start on the letter given, and the mode name just indicates how to alter the notes from the parallel major scale.

For example, the D major scale is D E F# G A B C# D.

Assuming that the major scale is default, then it would be represented numercially as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Dorian's pattern is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. So, the only difference between dorian and major, is the dorian has a b3 and a b7. Altering those notes from the major scale by lowering them a half step and you get:

D E F G A B C D.


Here are all the major scale modes presented in this parellel manner:

Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Learn those well, and learn the 12 major scales well, and you can takle any mode.

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Originally posted by Poparad

A progression like this isn't modal, and all of those modes are really just C major. This progression revolves around Cmajor, and uses the chords from C major, so it's not modal.

A modal progression is a progression that revolves around a chord that is not the tonic of a major or minor key.

Modal progressions usually use very few chords; usually only 1 or 2. This is done in order to avoid the progression sounding like it wants to go to it's major scale tonic.

In a progression like this, it's better to just treat it all as C major, rather than think of each chord as a mode of C major, because that just increases the ammount of things you have to think about when you really could just be focusing on 1 scale.

However, there is a way to approach this using modes. I'll explain this below.

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Originally posted by Poparad

Now you're getting on the right track of playing with modes in a regular (non-modal) progression.

The example you used of C phrygian over C major is going to be inherantly dissonant, but the scale clashes both with the chord, and what your ear expects to hear over C major due to the other chords in the progression. (The other chords all come from C major, or C Ionian, so that's what your ear would expect then over C).

While C phrygian over C major doesn't work very well, there are other modes that do.

The easiest way to learn modes in a way you can apply them, is to break them down into modes that work on Major chords, and modes that work on minor chords:

Major modes:

Ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - Works on Major triads and Major7 chords.
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 - Works on Major triads and Major7 chords.
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 - Works on Major triads and Dominant7 chords.

Minor modes:

Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Aeolian - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

All three modes work on minor triads and minor7 chords.

(Locrian is excluded because it's not very commonly used)

So, whenever you have a minor chord, you an interchangebly switch between any of the three minor modes. Some may sound more 'correct' than others in a given situation, but they all will work.

For example, the chord progression you gave was:

C G Am F Dm C

For the Am chord, you could play one of three modes:

A dorian - A B C D E F# G A
A phrygian - A Bb C D E F G A
A aeolian - A B C D E F G A

You can use any one of those at any time over the Am chord. Phrygian is usually somewhat dissonant and doesn't work all the time, but you can usually get away with dorian and aeolian in almost any situation.

[...clip...]

Back to the sample progression...

You can switch between any of the three major modes for the major chords in the progression, and any of the three minor modes for the minor chords in the progression.

Think of the modes as alternative sounds, or different 'flavors' of major and minor sounds.

You can usually use Dorian and Aeolian for minor chords, and Ionian and Lydian for major chords without much trouble.

Mixolydian and Phrygian tend to work less often, but they can still be used.

However, if you're dealing with a progression that is very diatonic (stays within one major/minor key, and uses multiple chords from that key), then the use of modes is usually less sucessful. In this case, you're usually limited to just playing the major/minor scale that the progression is in. The sample progression given in the original post isn't very good for using modes.

If a progression has very few chords, or the chords last for a long duration (4 bars or more for each chord), then it's usually easier to use modes and sound 'right.'

When there are fewer chords in a progression, the ear isn't so locked into a single key. The more different chords there are in a progression from a single key, the more it locks the progression into a single home key, and deviating from that tends to sound 'wrong.' When there are only a couple chords, the progression is less specific to just one key, and you can get away with using modes.

When the chords last for a long time, the ear tends to hear each chord as it's own 'tonic' or home chord. This allows you to pick whatever mode you want to use because the movement of chords is far apart and they don't influence you into hearing one mode as being more correct than another. You can almost think of each chord change then as a mini key change, since that's what you're doing when you use different modes; you're playing in different keys.

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Originally posted by Poparad

Allow me to reitterate the most important point to be made when discussing modes:

Knowing your 12 major scales inside and out is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to understanding and using modes.

Don't even bother to try and use modes if you don't know your major scales and you don't fully understand them. Modes are so linked to the major scale that you won't be able to understand them if you don't first undestand what they are derrived from.

Also, when you undestand the major scale very clearly, then modes tend to be a very simple concept to grasp after that. All the more reason to learn and understand the major scale first before delving into modes.

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Originally posted by Erich
yup! the way ive felt most comfortable learning theory thus far has been:

Major scales
Intervals
Modes
Chord construction
Pentatonic scales
Blues scales

one just building comfortably right off the other. thanks again man :)

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Originally posted by CPPJames

Speaking of chord construction, that can confuse the hell out of me too. Especially when it comes to 7ths. Every book seems to word things differently.

I know there's Dominant 7ths, minor 7ths, major 7ths, just 7ths (which I think means dominant, right?). I think that my problem is sometimes books try to define things based on the key that you're in, and sometimes books try to define based on the key of the chord, if that makes sense.

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