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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
 Posted - 11/04/2004 : 12:51:11 PM
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Denial: We've still got those provisional ballots in Ohio to count.
Absentee ballots all over the place. The electors could decide not to
give their votes to Bush. It's not over yet.
Anger: FUCK YOU, America. FUCK. YOU. You like 100,000 dead Iraqi
civilians because of your false war? 8000 wounded American soldiers
and 1100 dead in Iraq because of imperial hubris and incompetent
post-war planning not enough to quench your desire for misguided
vengeance? Great, well you're gonna have a lot more blood on your
hands. Don't want gay marriage? Fanfuckintastic. You got your way. A
lot of good it's gonna do when you can't afford your prescription
drugs, your unemployment benefits have run out, and your kid's fucking
school is overcrowded. And don't think for a fucking second that "tort
reform" is going to make a difference, because it won't. Global
warming is real, motherfuckers, and you just sealed the deal. Balanced
budget? Ha. And when the Bush Supreme Court makes abortion illegal
again, and thousands of women are dying from unsafe back-alley
abortions, that's on you, America. Thought the world just hated our
government? Fuck that. The world hates you the people now, America,
you stupid, weak, arrogant, ignorant sons of bitches. In thirty years,
when people look back at what happened on November 2nd, 2004, and ask
what people were thinking, all I'll have to say is, "Fuck you."
Bargaining: Please, America, think about what you've just done. We'll
give you your tort reform and your partially privatized social
security. We'll quit bitching about how the 2000 election was stolen.
Take some school vouchers, give it another try, maybe it'll actually
work this time around. More handguns for everyone. We'll lock away
Michael Moore. Just please, please, please don't let Bush back in
office for four more years.
Depression: Fuck. I mean, just, fuck. I can't take another four years
of this. This is horrible. Disgusting. I just want to curl up in the
fetal position and lie in the dark until it's over. Where's my tub of
cake icing?
Acceptance: Bring it on, motherfuckers! Republicans control the House,
the Senate, the White House, and Bush is gonna have three or four
Supreme Court justices to appoint. Bring on the radical rightwing
conservative agenda. No more blaming Clinton or the Democrats. It's on
the Republicans' heads now. And on the bright side...umm...I'll get
back to you on that one. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 1:16:23 PM
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| That pretty much sums it up. I'm so pissed off that so many people voted for dubya because of moral values and all that bullshit. People are more interested in keeping monogomous homosexual relationships out of the mainstream then they are with the huge number of Iraqi dead and a clear shift in Imperialism. Fucking Christianity! |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 1:53:50 PM
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quote:
Fucking Christianity!
And you're so concerned with letting out your frustrations that you don't stop to think about the millions of Christians who hate war as much as you do. For all your liberal "toleration" speeches, Christian viewpoints are seldom looked upon with a friendly face around here. Yes, I'm a Christian, and yes, I disagree with homosexual marriage. No, I don't hate gays and lesbians. Yes, I hate war. I also think America should continue to stay on the offensive in the war on terror. But you don't read my post yelling "YOU FUCKING IDIOTS" to the mostly leftist crowd populating these forums. So please keep your stereotypical generalizations and hate speech (yes I view "Fucking Christianity" as hate speech) to yourself. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Erich
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1427 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 2:19:44 PM
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my 5 stages of grief:
1> They started censoring the free photos at my favourite amatuer model's site!?
2> please, please, please, im begging you, bring back the uncensored photos!!!
3> I just... i just cant believe this. this is a dark day in the porn world.
4> well, erich. Life goes on. We need to be strong.
5> ... Bush won? |
~pw'oikr
~( "> |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 3:53:04 PM
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| erich, i'm afraid were going to need a link. i'm a visual learner. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:38:04 PM
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my five stages of grief:
1. anger. "fuck you idiots for voting for tried and true failure."
2. anger. "fuck you idiots for thinking kerry would be any better."
3. anger. "fuck you idiots for partaking and being proud of voting for someone you don't believe in."
4. anger. "fuck you idiots for thinking it's the end of the world."
5. vidoegames. |
death to false metal. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:44:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
my five stages of grief:
1. anger. "fuck you idiots for voting for tried and true failure."
2. anger. "fuck you idiots for thinking kerry would be any better."
3. anger. "fuck you idiots for partaking and being proud of voting for someone you don't believe in."
4. anger. "fuck you idiots for thinking it's the end of the world."
5. vidoegames.
You have to be the angriest shell of a human being to ever grace this board. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:50:45 PM
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| zach don't you even realize that you're not being any better by saying "fuck christianity" and condemning people for voting for someone that they agree with? whether you agree or not what is beside the point. you're not acting any better than the people you're lashing out against. makes you think that your values and morals are any more right? who said you had a monopoly on what's right and true? what would you think of kerry one and someone said the things your saying now? you need to calm down and start thinking rationally. you're coming off as arrogant. |
death to false metal. |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:52:05 PM
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| Kerry Conceded. Votes or no votes it's Bush for 4 more years. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:53:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
you need to calm down and start thinking rationally. you're coming off as arrogant.
Hello kettle? This is the pot... |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 8:04:03 PM
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| i'm angry, yes, but i do what i can to keep mental clarity. and that's something i think a lot of people here have lost the past couple days. if you can't see the the flaw in what zach is saying, then the problem on your end, likely. |
death to false metal. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 8:11:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i'm angry, yes, but i do what i can to keep mental clarity. and that's something i think a lot of people here have lost the past couple days. if you can't see the the flaw in what zach is saying, then the problem on your end, likely.
The flaw in what zach was saying is that it wasn't exclusive enough. If you have beliefs that are counter-active to the good of humanity, such as banning gay-marriage (which is tatamount to racism technically), then yes, fuck them. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 8:32:06 PM
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| the flaw in zach's statement isn't the statement only. it's the attitude. he's been touting his open minded and accepting ideals, which are good, for a while. then he turns around and calls 51% of america idiots and wrong for not believing has he does. |
death to false metal. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 8:51:13 PM
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quote:
The flaw in what zach was saying is that it wasn't exclusive enough. If you have beliefs that are counter-active to the good of humanity, such as banning gay-marriage (which is tatamount to racism technically), then yes, fuck them.
And what if I believe that gay marriage is counter-active to the "good of humanity"? (which I'll be honest and say that I do) My beliefs consider homosexuality to be a sin. I don't consider being anything other than caucasian to be a sin!(in response to the racism bit) And either way, you don't see me going around saying "Fuck gay people, I hate them", because I don't. If someone disagrees with me, of course I think they are wrong, but I don't call them or their opinions stupid. I disagree with most of the boardmember's politics here, but I don't go around saying "Fuck you" because someone is pro-abortion, pro-gun control, anti-Bush, anti-war, etc... I've seen some very intelligent people making some very astute observations and declarations from both sides of the political spectrum. It would be extremely arrogant of me to call any of you stupid, including Zach.
Presenting an intelligent argument (not fight) is much more edifying than the "fuck you people who disagree with me, because you're just a bunch of stupid assholes" approach. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 9:07:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
quote:
The flaw in what zach was saying is that it wasn't exclusive enough. If you have beliefs that are counter-active to the good of humanity, such as banning gay-marriage (which is tatamount to racism technically), then yes, fuck them.
And what if I believe that gay marriage is counter-active to the "good of humanity"? (which I'll be honest and say that I do) My beliefs consider homosexuality to be a sin. I don't consider being anything other than caucasian to be a sin!(in response to the racism bit) And either way, you don't see me going around saying "Fuck gay people, I hate them", because I don't. If someone disagrees with me, of course I think they are wrong, but I don't call them or their opinions stupid. I disagree with most of the boardmember's politics here, but I don't go around saying "Fuck you" because someone is pro-abortion, pro-gun control, anti-Bush, anti-war, etc... I've seen some very intelligent people making some very astute observations and declarations from both sides of the political spectrum. It would be extremely arrogant of me to call any of you stupid, including Zach.
Presenting an intelligent argument (not fight) is much more edifying than the "fuck you people who disagree with me, because you're just a bunch of stupid assholes" approach.
But that's my point.
If I said I disagree with blacks, in their lifestyle and choices, that makes me racist.
Even if it's just my beliefs that make me say that, that still means I'm an asshole.
If you disagree with homosexuals, in their lifestyle and choices, isn't that the same as the statement above? It seems that the people who are against gay marriage just fear what they do not know.
Give me an intelligent reason that you disagree with the gay lifestyle.
I'm not trying to flame you, I'm just very curious. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 9:51:02 PM
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Sorry for condeming all of christianity I'm just really pissed and I didn't really mean for it to condemn all of christianity. I just go crazy when I hear people saying how they voted for Bush because of moral values and his christian beliefs. Stuff like how he takes a stand against gay marriage and abortion. So they vote for a guy who is responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead people because he doesn't want fetus' to not develop or because they all can't stand the thought of monogomous homosexuality. I would really like to see some data on how homosexuality is going to have a negitive effect on society. I think anyone is lying to themselves if they say that they are against homosexuality for anything other than religous beliefs. I welcome any credible data showing how homosexual marriage is bad for society that isn't based on religion.
So now take a look at the etremist Islamic groups and governments. Hmm well I don't think anyone here probably thinks it's a good idea to treat women like they do. Or I don't think anyone here probably thinks that we should punish people like they do. They are religous extremists who in many cases (taliban) put their religous beliefs into the government and into legislation. So I think everyone would have to agree that they are really hurting peoples civil rights. Now turn to america where we are voting in our religous beliefs. Like how people are trying to make sure the only acceptable relationships in this country are heterosexual. Now I think we can all see the connection. Just because your religion says this is the way things are doesn't mean that everyone else should follow that. That is what seperation of church and state is all about. We don't have to follow religous beliefs. Only ethical beliefs that are going to be for the good of society. So show me some data that says it will because right now all I've seen is relgious hatred.
I don't like religion pretty much period and it's really no secret that I'm the anti-christ. If you want to believe it that's fine but I think it's all BS. I'm pissed that people follow this thing that most of them know nothing about. I hate the fact that all the religous people I talk to will say crazy things like how god put dinosaurs here to test people and stuff. It's just my view on things and I'm biased and all that even if I try to stay open minded and I was just expressing my anger. Not in a rational way either. So I don't think everyone has to think the way I do but I can speak out against what I think is right or wrong just like they can.
My basic views on life are that I favor logic. It's not logical for me to hear the buddhists tell me the right way to live and the christians and all their different sects say something different and then islam says this and that. That's because I realize that people's culture is what teaches them to live a certain way or another. So everyone has there right way to live but it's not based on logic or obsevation, but a power scheme. Look back to midevil times or even before and you'll see that the tallest buildings around where all pretty religous buildings or at least served a religous purpose. Now look at the tallest buildings. Banks, Media, etc. To be able to make these constructs you have to weild power and realizing that religion and now corporations are the power structure which most people in the world follow is scary to me. People don't even realize the basic story of the old testament and the whole garden of eden idea and what that story means.
So until I see religion based on logic and not faith and the blind cultural following that everyone is subjected to I will speak out against it. I mean it's that and nationalism to me that have scourged the earth. People shouldn't follow other people blindly like they do in religion. I just don't believe anyone can tell me without lying that they follow god and not someone else because no one speaks to him. No one knows if he exists. It's on faith and anyone who thinks otherwise I believe is lying to themselves. God didn't come tell you the way to live someone else said this is what god said. So when I see that being a cause of killing and hatred I speak out against it. Like I said though people are going to believe what they believe just like I do but I don't try to go to churches and hurt them or anything. I just speak my mind. I would argue though that religious people (not all of them) have been trying to take away peoples rights to live the way they live not based on ethics but religion and that to me is wrong. Ethics are something we can all follow. It's easy. Don't do it if it hurts other people. That's basically it. The golden rule. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 11:09:27 PM
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quote:
And what if I believe that gay marriage is counter-active to the "good of humanity"? (which I'll be honest and say that I do) My beliefs consider homosexuality to be a sin. I don't consider being anything other than caucasian to be a sin!(in response to the racism bit) And either way, you don't see me going around saying "Fuck gay people, I hate them", because I don't. If someone disagrees with me, of course I think they are wrong, but I don't call them or their opinions stupid. I disagree with most of the boardmember's politics here, but I don't go around saying "Fuck you" because someone is pro-abortion, pro-gun control, anti-Bush, anti-war, etc... I've seen some very intelligent people making some very astute observations and declarations from both sides of the political spectrum. It would be extremely arrogant of me to call any of you stupid, including Zach.
Presenting an intelligent argument (not fight) is much more edifying than the "fuck you people who disagree with me, because you're just a bunch of stupid assholes" approach.
But that's my point.
If I said I disagree with blacks, in their lifestyle and choices, that makes me racist.
Even if it's just my beliefs that make me say that, that still means I'm an asshole.
If you disagree with homosexuals, in their lifestyle and choices, isn't that the same as the statement above? It seems that the people who are against gay marriage just fear what they do not know.
Give me an intelligent reason that you disagree with the gay lifestyle.
I'm not trying to flame you, I'm just very curious.
[/quote]
It's different because I'm (just being honest, not hateful) against being homosexual. I'm not against being black, white, asian. Your ethnicity is not a choice, where I believe your lifestyle is, including sexual orientation.
My intelligent reason, haha, is not logical, in the usual sense of the word. However, my faith defines my logic. I don't expect everyone to understand that, but, in the words of Morpheus "My beliefs do not require them to."  I believe, wholeheartedly, that God is the author of the Bible, and in it, it states that homosexuality is "an abomination". But I don't believe it is a mortal sin, since the Bible also tells of people who were homosexuals and repented. (Hence my opinion that being gay is a choice.) I believe that everyone is a sinner, including myself, and I view homosexuality as no worse a lifestyle than an unfaithul spouse in a heterosexual marriage.
If you don't believe the Bible as I do, I don't hate you or think you're stupid. I think you're wrong, but not stupid. I respect your opinion, although I may not share it. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 01:10:09 AM
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| i find men of faith to be curious. maybe it's because i can't put my trust in something that has no apparent proof or reason behind it. i'm just wondering how you came to believe in your god and the bible so absolutely. i used to myself, but things fell apart. i was only taught christianity and so i accepted it. for a while, anyway. how did it work with you? did you find it? were you born into it? did you leave it and come back? only wondering. |
death to false metal. |
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 5:04:05 PM
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| Stage 3: Door to Door Rocking |
Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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Erich
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1427 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 6:07:55 PM
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The key to this election, and to informed dissent in general, is to accept a fundemental concept that many peoples ego wont let them believe: Right and wrong are human constructs; there is no such thing as a universal right or wrong. Therefor, all we have is differenting opinions; opinions that, molded slowly by progressing societies through out time, exist only to further the comfort of our species.
Once you accept the fact that what you know is neither right nor wrong, and never will be, it becomes easier to remove your ego from your opinions and beliefs, and accept others for how they think regardless of what you think on the contrary.
That being said, Im a full-on athiest left-leaning libertarian with a pro-death slant. Im pro suicide, death penalty, and abortion. I belileve homosexuality will be found to be genetic one day, and I feel the persecution of homosexuals is akin to racism and black segregation. I believe within the time span of the existance of the human race, life outside of earth will be found. I didnt vote for Bush, but I refused to vote for Kerry. I believe an informed no-vote is more acceptable than an uninformed vote, and I believe your freedoms as an American give you the right to bitch even if you didnt vote. I think your money should go to where you want it to, and not to government spending you dissagree with. I hate tipping, because i think people who take jobs that pay 2$ an hour are fucking stupid.
Thats what I believe in. Im far from ignorant on these beliefs. I know people who think the EXACT OPOSITE of me that are far from ignorant as well. If you cannot comprehend that, its still my duty, not as an american but as a human, to still accept your beliefs. Once we die, what we thought will no longer matter, and its arguable that they ever did to begine with. |
~pw'oikr
~( "> |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 10:18:13 PM
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| I still think the point stands that it's about ethics and not religion for voting because when you try to force what is a relgious belief on other people you just became an extremist. So it's sad to see people supporting a mass murderer because he doesn't like monogomous steamy man love. If you think it's wrong that's fine but if it's because your religion says so then keep it out of the government. If you can't at least back it up with basic ethics don't say it's the way things are. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 11:19:55 PM
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| Lots of people would argue that John Kerry is for killing babies due to his pro-abortion stance. Religion and government have never been separated, in any time period or any country. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dancingtracie
Is Anybody Here?
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 08:29:18 AM
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oh weel, I say....
Kiss Me, I'm Republican 
:lol btw- I'm new here - hiya. |
- tracie aim: dancingtracie34
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 08:53:59 AM
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Stage 4: Temp Job.
Canadian yarn art gentlemen...it sells itself.
Adam |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 1:19:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
I still think the point stands that it's about ethics and not religion for voting because when you try to force what is a relgious belief on other people you just became an extremist. So it's sad to see people supporting a mass murderer because he doesn't like monogomous steamy man love. If you think it's wrong that's fine but if it's because your religion says so then keep it out of the government. If you can't at least back it up with basic ethics don't say it's the way things are.
How do you find your ethics? My religion defines my ethics. But if religion is a human construct, as Erich was saying, and obviously every human is different, then there can't possibly be a set of "basic ethics" that applies to everyone. If someone is born with a mental problem that gives him the urge to slash people's throats every chance he gets, and his mind tells him that it's the "right thing to do", is that wrong? Who's to say that one person's "basic ethics" are above another's? If all humans are really equal, that is. I disagree with Erich, and believe that there IS a universal right and wrong, but of course I believe they were created by God, not man. Without that, everyone is right in everything they do, because nobody else has the right to tell them otherwise. Without right and wrong there can be no law, of man or God. And the world degenerates further into chaos, each person living for his or her own gain, pursuing hedonistic lifestyles til the end.
Answering Dan P's question, I was born into a Baptist family and was brought up going to church. I was still pretty young when I accepted Christ and placed my faith in His finished work. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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guitarted
Chatterbox
Canada
487 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 1:36:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GuitarGuy305
Stage 4: Temp Job.
Canadian yarn art gentlemen...it sells itself.
Yea, that stuff looks great in our igloos... |
Tim, come to Canada! |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 1:52:02 PM
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Uhm well it's pretty easy actually to have a basic set of ethics. Ask yourself does what I'm doing hurt other people. Then you try to take a non-hypocritical position in the world. It's not that hard to figure out. That's what ethics is though. It's saying that there is no set of rules that makes one thing right or wrong. Like how killing in one sense is often viewed as what's right and not what's wrong. Like how declaring war on a country and killing 100,000 can be considered the right thing to do but ethics would say that it isn't because if you were in that position you wouldn't want to have your country invaded and have so many people killed. However the war has been supported by many a church in this country. I'm just trying to point out that it's fine for god to say to moses kill all these midianites and take their land but it wouldn't be fine for the midianites god to do the same. It's just a basic thing that shows how right and wrong changes and it's based off of what the church says for religous people. Anyone who says religion doesn't change is an ass. So already you have to see that there is no set of rules because they change. The only set of rules is to do what god says.
So I understand that people often rely on the church for ethics but when you are trying to put something into law that you can only justify by what the church says you should think to yourself... hmm I believe that this or that is right because it's part of my religous beliefs, but I really can't say outside of those beliefs if it is right or wrong. So you would say if I vote for this I'm really not pushing anything but my religous beliefs on people. Now if you can come to the conclusion from a logical standpoint and not a faith one by saying that this or that will damage society and here is the data and the evidence then you have an ethical leg to stand on to act a certain way.
I mean the only person I've even heard give a semi-logical explaination of why they are against gay marriage is because insurance rates will rise with more people being covered by their spouses insurance. Just to say that it is wrong and that it will hurt society without even providing a shred of data to say so or at least an educated hypothesis then you're just voting in your beliefs.
It's been the same story over time. You can't teach evoloution or natural selection because god created us. Never mind the overwhelming scientific evidence it's just wrong. Never mind we've found skulls and skelotans that are way older than the earth is supposed to be and all that because we know our religion is right not based on evidence just faith. Or all the religions that said slavery was cool by them but now it isn't. It's why you can't rely on religion for ethics for me because it goes against them. If anything you should follow the golden rule. That's the basic question you ask yourself with anything is if it will hurt other people or if you would want it to be done to you if you were in their position. So if you believe being gay was fine and you were gay you probably would want someone to tell you that it isn't the right way to live based on religion.
A good book to check out if you haven't already is The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 2:22:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
I mean the only person I've even heard give a semi-logical explaination of why they are against gay marriage is because insurance rates will rise with more people being covered by their spouses insurance. Just to say that it is wrong and that it will hurt society without even providing a shred of data to say so or at least an educated hypothesis then you're just voting in your beliefs.
Of course I'm voting in my beliefs! How could I do otherwise?
quote:
That's what ethics is though. It's saying that there is no set of rules that makes one thing right or wrong.
Ethics IS a set of rules, it doesn't say that there IS NO set of rules...
quote:
It's why you can't rely on religion for ethics for me because it goes against them. If anything you should follow the golden rule.
Fun fact for the day: Although it shows up in many different religions, the earliest written example of "The Golden Rule" is found in THE HEBREW BIBLE, the fundamental writings on which Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormanism, ETC. ETC. ETC. are all originally based on. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 5:52:55 PM
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Of course you vote what your beliefs I would just hope not religous ones. All I'm saying is that if you can offer no reason of why this or that is going to hurt society or it needs to be stopped but your religous beliefs tell you it's wrong then you are an extremist trying to force a belief system on other people.
While the term ethics is widely used I'm refering to it as... The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy. I'm not saying that ethics is a common thing of what is right and wrong. The only things I think we can say is that if it hurts other people it's probably not right. I don't think we can say whether certain things are right or wrong for sure or say that they either hurt people or not. Abortion or homosexuality is considered wrong by most christian fatihs. However I don't think there is any data out there that gives reasons why it is bad or wrong. Wheras with stealing or killing it's easy to see why that is wrong because it hurts other people. Ethics is not a set of rules it's the study of morals or the study of the rules of life.
I also don't believe that the golden rule came primarily from the bible. Since there are simalar teachings in buddhism and ancient religions like those who worshipped Horus and Zarathushtra. Had Xerxes not been defeated by the greeks in 480 BC you would most likely today be worshiping Zarathushtra. It's also intresting to note the similarities between Jesus and Horus. Horus was also baptized by water, he is also the good shepard with a crook, Horus is the father seen in the son, Horus was as the the lamb, and he had 12 followers and those are just a few. Some study of ancient religions or native american religions I believe will show that they all have this golden rule somewhere worded somehow. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 7:35:14 PM
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| so you just were born into a religion and went with that? |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 9:23:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
so you just were born into a religion and went with that?
That's usually how it works. Which is why people born in places where there is a strong majority of buddhists are buddhist and why people born in the majority of people are christian are christian as well. It's how it went for me till I got the hell out. I've been trying to wake up my parents but they are too far gone I'm afraid. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 10:31:45 PM
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| i'm sure they appreciate their kid trying to tell them that the way they've been functioning for past couple decades is wrong. they probably smirk and tell you that they felt the same way once, right? that's what my parents used to tell me when i tried to talk them about. before i realized it didn't matter. |
death to false metal. |
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Erich
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1427 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 10:39:54 PM
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>>I actually did that joke in Alabama, right. These three rednecks met me after the show, man. 'Hey, buddy! Come here. Hey, Mr Comedian! Come here. Hey, buddy, we're Christians, we don't like what you said.' I said, 'Then forgive me.' It seemed so obvious.<<
~ Bill Hicks |
~pw'oikr
~( "> |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 11:17:59 PM
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| You're absolutely right. What was I thinking... religion is so stupid, obviously there's no god. Thanks for waking me up, Zach, so I can start living for me. You're so right... I only wish I had started listening to you sooner, since you're obviously well taught in the fundamentals of my beliefs... of all religious beliefs at that (not to mention reading those books on communism and all that)... man you're smart. Say, I know you don't believe in religion and all, but do you mind if I take a page out of your book, and start worshipping you? Just think of the knowledge I could gain... |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 12:57:16 AM
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| wake them up to what? people don't like it you tell them what they believe is wrong, so it's usually useless and sometimes dangerous to try to. it's just futile and annoying to the other person. remember when jehova's witnesses used to come up to your door and give you those little papers and bothered you about religions you don't believe in? that's you when you talk about why someone shouldn't be something. bothering people about believing in a religion equals exactly bothering people about not believing in a religion. |
death to false metal. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 01:38:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
You're absolutely right. What was I thinking... religion is so stupid, obviously there's no god. Thanks for waking me up, Zach, so I can start living for me. You're so right... I only wish I had started listening to you sooner, since you're obviously well taught in the fundamentals of my beliefs... of all religious beliefs at that (not to mention reading those books on communism and all that)... man you're smart. Say, I know you don't believe in religion and all, but do you mind if I take a page out of your book, and start worshipping you? Just think of the knowledge I could gain...
Well, I do have a background in theology, and am very familiar with the fundamental beliefs of Christianity
Religion has been used as a tool since the beginning of civilization to keep people in line. The Bible is a collection of fables to explain situations that were going on to the un-educated mass of people. This is also what the original authors meant it to be. People handled storytelling diffrently back then.
I mean, are you going to tell me that the grand canyon is only 3000 years old?
I can get along with Christians just fine and find most of their moral values to be seated in the cause for the common good. I do not however, appreciate the hypocricies the throw. According to Christian beliefs, we are all created in god's image. But Christians will rarely treat someone who doesn't agree with their values much differently, usually with supression.
Now, when this gets mixed up in the politics of a "Free" country, that 's when I get pissed.
The war we are fighting is no longer a war on terror. Well, if you count terror as trying to put armageddon fear into the hearts of the US and world, then it still is. This was is about oil and power. The christian right is piggy-backing this as a crusade of sorts.
I think it's funny when you hear a right-winger say that we are freeing the Iraqi and Afghani people. Defitintion of freedom aside, at the same time we are doing that we are creating a system in our own country that mirrors what we have been trying to destroy.
But I digress...
I don't agree with the christian lifestyle. I disagree with the lifestyle because I feel their beliefs are flawed and they are destroying the sanctity of intelligence and peace. I want the president to put an amendment into the constitution saying christianity isn't recognized as a coherent gathering of people and therefore should lose it's tax-free status.
That sucks doesn't it? That is what you are doing to the gays.
I still know a few very intelligent people that have faith. They let it guide their heart, not their brain. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 2:09:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by therippa
Now, when this gets mixed up in the politics of a "Free" country, that 's when I get pissed.
This "free" country was based on Christian principles, much as anyone tries to deny it. Since its creation the US has gotten further and further away from those principles, and is simultaneously going down the toilet. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 2:28:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
You're absolutely right. What was I thinking... religion is so stupid, obviously there's no god. Thanks for waking me up, Zach, so I can start living for me. You're so right... I only wish I had started listening to you sooner, since you're obviously well taught in the fundamentals of my beliefs... of all religious beliefs at that (not to mention reading those books on communism and all that)... man you're smart. Say, I know you don't believe in religion and all, but do you mind if I take a page out of your book, and start worshipping you? Just think of the knowledge I could gain...
Hey man I didn't mean to come off quite like that. I do tell my religous friends I'm christ though and they need to worship me or I'll sent them to hell. That's amongst friends though and it's a mutual fun bashing of beliefs both of mine and theirs. I don't really care what you think about religion or who created the world or if you know about early religions or whatever and I don't mean to make you sound stupid for being religous or anything because I was religous for most of my life so far and the only reason I stopped in the first place wasn't cause I quit believing but I didn't live their standards. It was only later that I began to question it after I had kind of broken away anyway. Just don't try to push a belief on to other people and I really will leave your beliefs alone although I think anyone who studies religion in depth and not from a priest but scholars will come away with some very startiling conclusions.
If I may though ask you just one question? Why is it that you believe in your religion and not buddhism or another? Just what is it that makes you believe in that? I believe the honest answer to that question will either reinforce why you believe or make you step back and exaimine religion more. Oh and that's just for you to answer yourself not actually respond back.
To answer dan I guess it sounds a little strange and asshole-ish for me to say wake them up like I'm the father of all knowledge. I just think there are things though that my parents haven't really taken a look into. My mom has begun but she dismiss' things to easily because she sides with religion because it is absolutely right and people just don't understand things right. So she can say things like how do we know god didn't do this or that or this or that instead of admitting that it probably didn't happen. Instead god put things here like old skelotons to test us and yada yada yada. The thing that bothers me is that they pay so much money to church and give so much time to it and then my mom turns around and feels like she is no good. So I don't see where it does her any good to believe in this stuff especially when she herself will admit that she doesn't get answers to prayers or she doesn't feel like she has any connection to god or anything. Yet she believes for no logical reason and my view is that it's harmful to her life and she would be much happier if she left the church.
I'm just trying to get her to answer why she believes and so far the only answer has been because it's what's right and it's the way things are. I think she's fooling herself like I was saying I know this or that is true when I didn't. It's just what religous people did and I was one of them. I just don't think she's being honest with herself and it's really detrimental to her physiacal and mental health. Besides she still thinks that the earth was created for man and that view on the world clashes with mine heavily so it's a ongoing debate. I still say they can do what they want but I'm going to challenge it. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 2:33:48 PM
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| Now there's a post I can appreciate. The only reason I entered into this debate was because your admittedly asinine outburst of "Fucking Christianity!" So on this note, we can agree to disagree? |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 2:35:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
This "free" country was based on Christian principles, much as anyone tries to deny it. Since its creation the US has gotten further and further away from those principles, and is simultaneously going down the toilet.
Uhm I would like to see how you came to that conclusion seeing how more than a couple of the founding fathers were pretty anti-christian and I would really like to see you put down freedom as a christian principle that is soley from christianity. The freest peoples on this earth which would be the still existing tribal people like the ones in botswana and wherever else they still are, have no concept of christ or men needing to be saved or anything remotely similar. So I would like to see where you got this idea from.
Beyond that I view christianity as the believers submitting to god not being free to do as they choose because that freedom will lead them to hell unless they do what god wants. I look at it as being a robot. Only you choose to be a robot and you have the choice not to be. Considering that the basic belief of what is right and wrong in christian faith is that you just do whatever god tells you. Cause if he tells you to kill it's cool but otherwise it's wrong. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 8:55:57 PM
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| how can one know god when one doesn't even know himself. |
death to false metal. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 10:47:39 PM
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Come on now Zach I never said freedom was a solely Christian idea...
And it's difficult for me to explain but because of God's Grace I feel freer...
Dan what are you trying to accomplish with that statement? Getting your views across? Consider them noted. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Topic |
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The Five Stages of Grief
