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KevinLesko
Alien Abductee
3712 Posts |
 Posted - 10/08/2003 : 02:02:27 AM
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| I know the board is pretty split on MM, with some loving him, and some hating him, but nonetheless, he has a new book out called "dude where's my country" that looks great. I wish I didn't have like 5 other texts I was reading right now for school so I could read it, but I will definately be reading it as soon as I can. |
god
Kevin |
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SurferX
Chatterbox
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 02:05:56 AM
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I bought this book after seeing that it was coming out today on eBay last night! I was really excited! I started reading it earlier, and only read the introduction, and I love it! I am one of those people that happen to agree w/ Michael Moore on all of his issues. And yes...I loved Bowling for Columbine.
I'll keep everyone posted on my thoughts on "Dude, Where's My Country?" |
--Zak |
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Katchoo
Try A Little Harder
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 09:53:12 AM
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I went and saw Noam Chomsky speak last night. But I kept feeling like, "Damn. They need to broadcast this shit or something." And then I heard about this book this morning. So I feel a little better. But I'm tellin ya, Arnold's reign is the first horseman of the apocolypse. Get ready.
Michael Moore....keep us sane please!!! |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 11:57:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katchoo:
Michael Moore....keep us sane please!!!
Since he is so amazingly honest and has never tried to mislead or deceive anyone.
...by the way...I wonder where old Xar666 is... |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 12:12:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
quote:
Originally posted by Katchoo:
Michael Moore....keep us sane please!!!
Since he is so amazingly honest and has never tried to mislead or deceive anyone.
...by the way...I wonder where old Xar666 is...
hahaha yeah micheal moore is a symbol of what's right in america. yeah right. arghh i am surprised how many people call bush a liar (for the record, i don't believe he is) and then praise moore who has done much worse in his deceptions. |
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SurferX
Chatterbox
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 1:32:51 PM
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| Hmm...Deceving people about a movie, and deceiving people to cover your ass for a war are two totally different things. |
--Zak |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 2:04:46 PM
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Haven't you communists heard? President George W. Bush is incapable of lying. He is rivaling ole' honest Abe with his honesty and patriotism.
Flaming Moe anyone? |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 3:52:09 PM
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| I don't look up to George Bush though. Why would you look up to anybody who lies on a mass level? |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 4:24:37 PM
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i was just pointing out the inconsistancies of those that support moores blatant and obvious lying and bush's lying as well (even though i don't think he has really lied all that much, that is the general consensus)
like how the democrats in cali started with all the sex issues with arnold after they defended even worse behvior from clinton and how republicans were all blowing it off like it was 30 years ago when with clinton they drudged up his history too. it is just funny sometimes to watch the hypocrasy |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 6:28:46 PM
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I wouldn't call it being silly...
I will agree that Noam generally knows his shit. That always impresses me. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 11:01:36 AM
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Misinterpreting intelligence is not the same thing as lying. Intel is a tough job. It's not as easy and intuitive as Jack Ryan makes it look...
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 11:24:57 AM
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BTW, WMD is not the only reason the Bush administration had for going after Saddam. The George W. Bush administration also cited Saddam Hussein's defiance of the following U.N. resolutions as a major reason for invading Iraq.
UNSCR 678 - November 29, 1990
* Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq's illegal invasion of Kuwait) "and all subsequent relevant resolutions."
* Authorizes UN Member States "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area."
UNSCR 686 - March 2, 1991
* Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War.
* Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.
* Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait.
UNSCR 687 - April 3, 1991
* Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities."
* Iraq must "unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material" or any research, development or manufacturing facilities.
* Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq.
UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991
* "Condemns" repression of Iraqi civilian population, "the consequences of which threaten international peace and security."
* Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.
* Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.
UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991
* "Condemns" Iraq's "serious violation" of UNSCR 687.
* "Further condemns" Iraq's noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
* Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994
* "Condemns" Iraq's recent military deployments toward Kuwait.
* Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.
* Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.
UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996
* Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996
* "Deplores" Iraq's refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq's "clear violations" of previous UN resolutions.
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997
* "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "clear and flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
* Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997
* "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
* Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997
* "Condemns the continued violations by Iraq" of previous UN resolutions, including its "implicit threat to the safety of" aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment.
* Reaffirms Iraq's responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors.
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the "severest consequences for Iraq.
UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998
* "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with" UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes "a totally unacceptable contravention" of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.
* Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998
* "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation" with UN inspectors as "a flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions.
* Iraq must provide "immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 1284 - December 17, 1999
* Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM).
* Iraq must allow UNMOVIC "immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access" to Iraqi officials and facilities.
* Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners.
* Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.
On November 8 2002, the UN passed Resolution 1441 by a unanimous vote. The purpose of that resolution was to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. Iraq had already been found guilty of material breach of its obligations, stretching back over 16 previous resolutions and 12 years.
Resolution 1441 gave Iraq one last chance to come into compliance or to face serious consequences. According to Colin Powell, no council member present in voting on that day had any allusions about the nature and intent of the resolution or what serious consequences meant if Iraq did not comply.
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Katchoo
Try A Little Harder
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 11:36:21 AM
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Long ass response ahead...not directed to anyone in particular, 'cuz the same comments are coming up everywhere.
Mmmmkay. What makes you think that Michael Moore is lying about anything? He actually researches his work. The facts are there, you just have to look for them. Even if it seems radically different from the "reality" that we have been privileged to know, the truth is still salient. Just dramatically different than what we have all been spoonfed. If you have any credible or legitimate websites or actual published works that you can point me to that prove his claims false, I would love to look over them. I am always up for education over ignorance. So if there are other factual truths than what Moore has presented, I definitely want to hear them. That information could start a revolution. I definitely want to be in on that.
And the Clinton Arnold thing....the republicans tried to IMPEACH the president over having sex. Not sexually harassing, physically abusing or violating anyone. Having consensual sex. They were going to fire the leader of the free world for busting a nut. WTF??? So bringing up Arnold's past is totally in line and considerably more tepid than anything that happened to Clinton.
And it for the record, it was the REPUBLICAN owned Tribune Media Group that had the info on Arnold since May but chose not to bring it up until recently. They went after Bustamante too for his past as a protester and activist. That is the nature of politics.
And Clinton was far from perfect. He lied about shit too. All presidents(and politicians)have. Par for the course.
And I believe that Bush lied and continues to lie about lots of things. If you think about it, his father was the head of the CIA. Might as well call the CIA Deception Central. Papa's Bush's whole career was made on using deception, covert tactics and misdirection to do their "job". I can't honestly assume that none of those lessons were passed down. It's possible I'm wrong but....ehhhh?
Of all of the nations in the world, and there were plenty who hated the hell out of Saddam, we, the most powerful nation in the world are the only ones who are actually afraid of him. The leader of a decemated nation, with no money and no allies. Even neighboring nations did not report any fear of him or concern about his potential actions against them. hmmmmmmm It's all terribly fishy.
Alright. Enough babbling. I am still going to get the book.
Katchoo
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 4:17:41 PM
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Using that logic Tericee, why have we not gone to war with Isreal instead of supporting it with more weapons?
http://www.mideastfacts.com/resolutions.html
UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians"
Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
And these are only through 1992. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 5:24:37 PM
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| Fleabass, good question! |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 6:44:31 PM
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it boils down to this. bush is all about government progaganda, and michael moore is about leftist propaganda. siding with one is just eating a different pile of bullshit. they both lie on mass levels. the only difference bush's propaganda has more effect, because michaels moore's is pretty much just being shown to people who already agree with him. all your getting is facts filtered by someone's own personal agenda. nice work on bending to someone else's will, stupid. how weak can you be?
we need something that gives people all the facts. period. no slant, nothing. just like a list of facts. let people come to their own conclusions if they are capable of that, which it seems like they aren't. i don't believe anything either one of them say because they're not trying to inform you, they're trying to manipulate them to their side. they don't care about the truth, they just things there own way. bush and moore. |
death to false metal. |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 7:42:47 PM
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| Most Americans don't even know the history behind Isreal and Palestine. Hell, I didn't until my Junior year of college in a theology course! I recently mentioned Isreal's latest helecopter attack to a friend of mine and he remarked how he and his dad were talking about it recently and how he guessed "Isreal finally decided to stop taking shit and push back." Of course that is a ridiculous statement because Isreal strikes back after almost every suicide attack and Isreal has been dis-enfranchising palestinians for decades now. It's all so messed up, but people need to be informed before they let our goverment pick a side, in my opinion. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2003 : 8:21:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katchoo
Mmmmkay. What makes you think that Michael Moore is lying about anything? He actually researches his work. The facts are there, you just have to look for them. Even if it seems radically different from the "reality" that we have been privileged to know, the truth is still salient. Just dramatically different than what we have all been spoonfed. If you have any credible or legitimate websites or actual published works that you can point me to that prove his claims false, I would love to look over them. I am always up for education over ignorance. So if there are other factual truths than what Moore has presented, I definitely want to hear them. That information could start a revolution. I definitely want to be in on that.
And the Clinton Arnold thing....the republicans tried to IMPEACH the president over having sex. Not sexually harassing, physically abusing or violating anyone. Having consensual sex. They were going to fire the leader of the free world for busting a nut. WTF??? So bringing up Arnold's past is totally in line and considerably more tepid than anything that happened to Clinton.
And it for the record, it was the REPUBLICAN owned Tribune Media Group that had the info on Arnold since May but chose not to bring it up until recently. They went after Bustamante too for his past as a protester and activist. That is the nature of politics.
And Clinton was far from perfect. He lied about shit too. All presidents(and politicians)have. Par for the course.
And I believe that Bush lied and continues to lie about lots of things. If you think about it, his father was the head of the CIA. Might as well call the CIA Deception Central. Papa's Bush's whole career was made on using deception, covert tactics and misdirection to do their "job". I can't honestly assume that none of those lessons were passed down. It's possible I'm wrong but....ehhhh?
Of all of the nations in the world, and there were plenty who hated the hell out of Saddam, we, the most powerful nation in the world are the only ones who are actually afraid of him. The leader of a decemated nation, with no money and no allies. Even neighboring nations did not report any fear of him or concern about his potential actions against them. hmmmmmmm It's all terribly fishy.
Alright. Enough babbling. I am still going to get the book.
Katchoo
As I posted in a different thread about Michael Moore: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
And as Teri posted in that same thread:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110003233
Here's the thread:
http://www.timreynolds.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3351&SearchTerms=Michael,Moore
That's what makes me believe he is lying, in fact I gave a speech on the topic last spring. I know he researches his stuff, and when it doesn't turn out the way he wants it he distorts it or lies out right.
So you ask me why I think Moore is lying, and then you go ahead and automatically believe that Bush is lying. That's a bit hypocritical.
And about the whole Arnold thing...
The Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinto case was better documented. With the Arnold case, you have women who won't come forward, who wait for several years, one of the alleged incidents happened over a decade ago. Stack that on top of when the story was presented, at the end of a major campaign. There isn't a whole lot of credibility there. And I don't know about you, but if I received oral sex while I was on the job, I'd be fired. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Erich
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1427 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 01:03:06 AM
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Flaming Moe, BITCH   |
~pw'oikr
~( "> |
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KevinLesko
Alien Abductee
3712 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 02:50:43 AM
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| I had a customer, after seeing the book (which I placed right at the front counter) tell me we shouldn't be carrying the book, I asked why not, and he said because "he is so negative" and his wife added "he is unamerican". I asked the guy if he had seen any of his movies, or read his books to which the guy replied "no" and I asked him how could he possibly say something like that without knowing anything in the first place. Don't even get me started on the wife, I just kept my mouth shut there, I had to stay somewhat professional about it, but I felt like saying that she was displaying the same behavior that KKK supporters used in the early 1900's when you say one bad thing about a white guy and you are all of a suddon a "nigger lover". Grrrrrr, some people!!! |
god
Kevin |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 10:29:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katchoo
And the Clinton Arnold thing....the republicans tried to IMPEACH the president over having sex. Not sexually harassing, physically abusing or violating anyone. Having consensual sex. They were going to fire the leader of the free world for busting a nut. WTF??? So bringing up Arnold's past is totally in line and considerably more tepid than anything that happened to Clinton.
And it for the record, it was the REPUBLICAN owned Tribune Media Group that had the info on Arnold since May but chose not to bring it up until recently. They went after Bustamante too for his past as a protester and activist. That is the nature of politics.
And Clinton was far from perfect. He lied about shit too. All presidents(and politicians)have. Par for the course.
And I believe that Bush lied and continues to lie about lots of things. If you think about it, his father was the head of the CIA. Might as well call the CIA Deception Central. Papa's Bush's whole career was made on using deception, covert tactics and misdirection to do their "job". I can't honestly assume that none of those lessons were passed down. It's possible I'm wrong but....ehhhh?
if you'd care to actually remeber the impeachment, it was for obstruction because he lied about monica. the whole "what is "is"" thing. if he'd have just said 'yep i did her, sorry" i think it would have just been a footnote instead of such a big deal.
and as for bush lying, it just doesn't add up. i think he knew a war was a bigger risk and chose to go in anyways because it was what was right. why would he be wanting america to foot 87 billion if the reason we went in was for oil. that doesn't make sense. the whole left argument just doesn't support the facts.
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SurferX
Chatterbox
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 1:01:20 PM
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| Just ask the citizens of Texas what he did when he was Governor there, and you'll get your answer to the $87 billion for a war over oil... |
--Zak |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 2:20:24 PM
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| That wasn't vague in the least... |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 2:32:56 PM
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| i'm sick of people saying it's a war for oil. and not because my opinion differs, but because they just slam out statement and then don't back it up with facts or information. it's a knee jerk reaction. show me beyond any doubt that this war is for oil and i'll agree with you. if you don't have the facts, then keep your mouth shut. the statement does have any substance. you just heard it from someone else. |
death to false metal. |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 3:15:55 PM
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Iraq and Hussein are scapegoats. It's that simple. There are countries with bigger problems, more weapons, and more tyranny than Iraq in the middle east alone. Scapegoats. I can't prove anything as far as motives or sinister plans, but I don't trust Bush because he has blatently lied and decieved the American people on at least one occasion where everyone DIDN'T but it.
When? Remember when he was out in some national park and was trying to tell us that if there are less trees then there will be less forest fires? And how we should bring in logging companies to take down these pesky trees and make some money off of them? Well friends, that was 100% bonified texas bull shit. And the main reason I know this is because my father, who is an arborist and who worked for the forest service and who has a masters degree in forestry from Purdue University graduating in the top 10% of his class, told me it was bullshit. And he is one of the most conservative people I know, card carrying Republican since well before I was born. Worship's President Reagan and Bush #1. I fear telling him my political views for the simple fact that he IS so far right. HE doesn't like bush because he knows he was purposely decieving.
If my president lies to me about a question that should have never been asked in the first place just because of common decency, I'll accept it because I'd do the same in his position. If a president treats me like an idiot and lies boldfaced, telling me I should swallow a big spoonfull of shit so his friends can make money? FUCK HIM. All trust is gone, next president.
[/rant] |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Katchoo
Try A Little Harder
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 3:17:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
it boils down to this. bush is all about government progaganda, and michael moore is about leftist propaganda. siding with one is just eating a different pile of bullshit. they both lie on mass levels. the only difference bush's propaganda has more effect, because michaels moore's is pretty much just being shown to people who already agree with him. all your getting is facts filtered by someone's own personal agenda. nice work on bending to someone else's will, stupid. how weak can you be?
we need something that gives people all the facts. period. no slant, nothing. just like a list of facts. let people come to their own conclusions if they are capable of that, which it seems like they aren't. i don't believe anything either one of them say because they're not trying to inform you, they're trying to manipulate them to their side. they don't care about the truth, they just things there own way. bush and moore.
Bad poster! Bad poster! Name calling and delusions of grandeur! Go back to your corner until you are willing to debate in a civil manner. BOOOOOO.  |
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SurferX
Chatterbox
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 3:17:57 PM
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Perhaps the fact that most of, if not all of, the US appointed people that have taken over in Afganistan and Iraq have, at one point, worked for some of the biggest oil companies in the US (Mainly Unocal) will help you understand that this war is mainly over oil.
I could go on, but I really don't want to...Also, please note...I'd like to reform the statement I made that this war is all about oil. I stated above that it is "mainly over oil", which, really, has been the major cause for both of the Gulf Wars. If it was really over Saddam breaking all of the UN resolutions, why didn't the UN go after him instead of having the US/UK do all the hard work alone (even after the US said that he supposedly ignored all of them)? |
--Zak |
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Xar666
Yak Addict
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 3:28:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katchoo
Long ass response ahead...not directed to anyone in particular, 'cuz the same comments are coming up everywhere.
Mmmmkay. What makes you think that Michael Moore is lying about anything? He actually researches his work. The facts are there, you just have to look for them. Even if it seems radically different from the "reality" that we have been privileged to know, the truth is still salient. Just dramatically different than what we have all been spoonfed. If you have any credible or legitimate websites or actual published works that you can point me to that prove his claims false, I would love to look over them. I am always up for education over ignorance. So if there are other factual truths than what Moore has presented, I definitely want to hear them. That information could start a revolution. I definitely want to be in on that.
Here you go little buddy:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms...ml?id=110003233
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp
http://www.dailyvidette.com/news/413482.html
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html
Moore is a hack. They should give Oscars for best documentary to people who actually make documentaries, not propaganda films.
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Katchoo
Try A Little Harder
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 3:32:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
So you ask me why I think Moore is lying, and then you go ahead and automatically believe that Bush is lying. That's a bit hypocritical.
And about the whole Arnold thing...
The Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinto case was better documented. With the Arnold case, you have women who won't come forward, who wait for several years, one of the alleged incidents happened over a decade ago. Stack that on top of when the story was presented, at the end of a major campaign. There isn't a whole lot of credibility there. And I don't know about you, but if I received oral sex while I was on the job, I'd be fired.
But Bush IS lying. All politicians lie. Hell, if they told the truth, we would be having a recall or impeachment trial every few months. Part of the job. It's twisted, but it's part of the job. They all have to succumb. (And being silent about facts carries the same impact as decieving others...)
Moore's spin is no different than Fox or CNN's or the New York Times' spin. Hell just to hear something remotely intelligible with some remmnants of facts, you end up having to listen to the BBC these days.
About the timing on Arnold's piece... Remember Flowers? Anita Hill? All introduced to the storylines at crucial points in their job hunt. So it is expected. Bush was trying to put a couple of super duper conservatives in the running for the supreme court. If opponents had waited until after they got the job to bring that up, we might be stuck with those folks, and I might have to move to Mexico or South America or something. At least you know that those governments are corrupt. They are upfront about their bullshit. Jokes! (But not really.) Those candidates do not represent me at all, so it is good that those who dissent were heard.
But thanks for the articles. I will definitely check them out later. I don't believe everything that I am told, just because someone said it, but I think that you need to hear all perspectives to figure out what the hell is really going on.
K. |
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Katchoo
Try A Little Harder
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 3:36:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GRock
[quote][i]
and as for bush lying, it just doesn't add up. i think he knew a war was a bigger risk and chose to go in anyways because it was what was right. why would he be wanting america to foot 87 billion if the reason we went in was for oil. that doesn't make sense. the whole left argument just doesn't support the facts.
Yeah...but at this point there are a lot of "facts" that have not been seen yet. Lots of speculation and fear, but no facts yet. Only time will tell. And the money, he already destroyed any hopes for getting out of the deficit long before he initated his war, so that was irrelevant in the decision making process. Some modern Americans are more than happy to foot the bill for the military over all else. Even to their own detriment.
But weren't we talking about Michael Moore?
K.
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 3:42:25 PM
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If Oil was the cause of both Gulf Wars, why didn't we just completely take over Iraq after the first one?
And there is no news source that isn't biased, the BBC included, so don't even say that it's the only reliable source. It's just one of the few these days that's slanted towards the left. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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KevinLesko
Alien Abductee
3712 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 4:43:21 PM
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Has everyone seen this picture before:
Rumsfeld and Hussein shaking hands in the 80's. I didn't really know about the whole story of the working relationship between the Regan administration and Sadam until just this past week in my Race and Ethnicity class. |
god
Kevin |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 5:58:46 PM
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| Basically the first Gulf War was about oil, just in a different way. If you don't examine the different political climates, there's no way to understand it and I don't feel like being a professor on a friday afternoon, anyone else care for a shot at it? |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2003 : 01:00:04 AM
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delusions of grandeur? what the hell are you talking about? show me where i have delusions of grandeur. you have delusions of reading comprehension. oh no, that wasn't nice. neither is calling someone a liar, which what we've all been doing so far. what do you mean my post wasn't civil? it was passionate maybe. but far from uncivil.
but ok. i'll tone it down for you. about michael moore. you have already assumed that bush is a liar because someone else who's slant is the total opposite of his told you. has michael moore presented you with all the information? or has he just omitted facts and glossed over things, like bush does, to make himself seem right? did you check his sources. did he list them? did you even think to check?
pretty much no one knows all the facts. no one knows what the hell is going on. i think we should just give it up. we will never know exactly what happens for sure, and we never will. omnipotence is not achievable by mortals. that said, i think it's clear that everyone has delusions of grandeur here. now if you'll excuse me, i have to go look for errors in the phonebook and smell my socks after i take them off. |
death to false metal. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2003 : 03:08:09 AM
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| That was very, very well put Dan. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Katchoo
Try A Little Harder
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2003 : 01:55:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
you have delusions of reading comprehension. oh no, that wasn't nice. neither is calling someone a liar, which what we've all been doing so far.
And on that note...on to other topics. I should feel shut out and outsmarted on that one....whatever.
K. |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2003 : 3:15:59 PM
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| I enjoyed how he complained about how CNN didn't fully disclose all the information about their expert, when he did the same thing throughout his whole movie. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2003 : 11:53:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
I enjoyed how he complained about how CNN didn't fully disclose all the information about their expert, when he did the same thing throughout his whole movie.
Examples? |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2003 : 03:53:23 AM
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When he's talking with Heston at the end, at no point in time does he disclose the fact that Heston suffers from Alzheimer's disease.
Also how he leaves out the fact that the B-52's plaque was put in honor of them shooting down a MIG, instead he says it proclaims that they bombed civilians.
Read through the links. It's all there. I don't want to write up a post with all the information from those links, when they are right there. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2003 : 8:47:21 PM
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yeah. you should probably just shut it down now. unless of course you want to quote two more sentences of mine, and then say absolutely nothing about those, too.
i really should have forseen this. whenever anyone is losing an argument they take the coward's way out and pass it off as unimportant and then tries to get everyone to move on. no one ever admits they're wrong, or, god forbid, try to find some counterpoints. |
death to false metal. |
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New Michael Moore book out today
