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Xar666
Yak Addict
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2003 : 1:31:27 PM
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Read:
The article gives some good illumination to what life in Iraq under tyranny was like.
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April 11, 2003
The News We Kept to Ourselves
By EASON JORDAN
TLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.
For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.
Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection. The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting. Some vanished, never to be heard from again. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their own workers.
We also had to worry that our reporting might endanger Iraqis not on our payroll. I knew that CNN could not report that Saddam Hussein's eldest son, Uday, told me in 1995 that he intended to assassinate two of his brothers-in-law who had defected and also the man giving them asylum, King Hussein of Jordan. If we had gone with the story, I was sure he would have responded by killing the Iraqi translator who was the only other participant in the meeting. After all, secret police thugs brutalized even senior officials of the Information Ministry, just to keep them in line (one such official has long been missing all his fingernails).
Still, I felt I had a moral obligation to warn Jordan's monarch, and I did so the next day. King Hussein dismissed the threat as a madman's rant. A few months later Uday lured the brothers-in-law back to Baghdad; they were soon killed.
I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that Saddam Hussein was a maniac who had to be removed. One Foreign Ministry officer told me of a colleague who, finding out his brother had been executed by the regime, was forced, as a test of loyalty, to write a letter of congratulations on the act to Saddam Hussein. An aide to Uday once told me why he had no front teeth: henchmen had ripped them out with pliers and told him never to wear dentures, so he would always remember the price to be paid for upsetting his boss. Again, we could not broadcast anything these men said to us.
Last December, when I told Information Minister Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf that we intended to send reporters to Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, he warned me they would "suffer the severest possible consequences." CNN went ahead, and in March, Kurdish officials presented us with evidence that they had thwarted an armed attack on our quarters in Erbil. This included videotaped confessions of two men identifying themselves as Iraqi intelligence agents who said their bosses in Baghdad told them the hotel actually housed C.I.A. and Israeli agents. The Kurds offered to let us interview the suspects on camera, but we refused, for fear of endangering our staff in Baghdad.
Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home.
I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.
Eason Jordan is chief news executive at CNN.
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2003 : 1:57:31 PM
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Very interesting article and no doubt full of truth. Am I still opposed to the war? Not sure how to answer that. Am I still convinced going over there was the right thing to do? NO
Don't get me wrong. On a purely human rights issue, I am glad for the people of Iraq to be freed from such a horrible dictator, but have we proved he was a threat to us? I am not sure we have. That was supposed to be the reason for going over there.
Multiply this story a hundred times and you could be talking about any of a number of places in the world. The world is not a safe place that is for sure, but I don't see us going in and getting involved in those other areas of the world.
Again I am sorry. If things are still better there in 10 years and if we as a nation are better off for it then I would be willing to say it was the right thing to do. I still am not convinced it was. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2003 : 2:41:53 PM
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Thanks for posting the article Xar.
Really informative and as horrible as it is, it's good to know that this information is coming out, and will probably continue to come out in greater numbers. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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SpaceMonkey
Chatterbox
315 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 10:03:41 PM
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| I was against the war until we found all those weapons of mass destruction..oh wait that still hasn't happened yet... |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2003 : 11:09:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SpaceMonkey
I was against the war until we found all those weapons of mass destruction..oh wait that still hasn't happened yet...
They've found enough for me to validate it. That along with the liberation of an entire country, the economic benefit to us (yep), the fact that thousands of atrocities have been prevented, and the world is a generally better place, I support the hell out of it. The greater good... |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 12:32:35 AM
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One of the things that has always gotten me about this is how Bush has a problem with Saddam ignoring the UN sanctions to remove his suspected weapons of mass destruction (which I'm still waiting for them to find). So after Bush is fed up with Saddam's resistance to the UN, what do we do? America goes to war against the resolution of the UN. The irony in that one never ceases to amaze me.
The thing that worries me about all of this is not about Iraq, but the other nations of the world. We're all concerned how so many middle-eastern nations think we're this Big Bad America that imposes ourselves on the world and stamps out the cultures and ideologies of other nations. An exaggeration yes, but that's often the idea that is fostered. This can only serve but to reinforce those ideas. I don't know what will come of this but I hope nothing too disasterous.
Also, now the the war in Iraq is over, there's all this talk suddenly about Syria, Korea, and other countries that we disagree with. Are we going to move in and take out the governments of all our enemies? Today Iraq, tomorrow the world? I hope it doesn't come to that but I honestly don't like the idea of American going around and imposing our views on every country that disagrees with us.
I also have a problem with any war where over 2,500 civilians are killed by the forces sent to 'liberate' them. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 01:23:49 AM
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Okay, the 2,500 casualties. That's really inveitable. In any kind of war/battle, whatever the goal. Civilian casualties will always arise. However, that's pretty insignificant compared to the mass atrocities of Saddam and his gang. Also, how many people live in Iraq? Millions.
I feel sorry for those people. I sympathize with their families. But I'm sure the rest of those citizens are damned happy and glad and thankful. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Xar666
Yak Addict
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 10:24:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
I also have a problem with any war where over 2,500 civilians are killed by the forces sent to 'liberate' them.
It’s called the greater good. So you're saying the millions of casualties lost in WW2 were not worth stopping Hitler? You need to grow up and realize that there will always be conflict within the human race. There will never be an “ultimate peace”.
Humans are driven too much by their egos and their greed for an “ultimate peace” to exist. It is up to us to try and do the best we can with what we have. Someone has got to be on top. If any country is going to be the world's leader, I am glad it is the U.S.
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 2:05:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar666
If any country is going to be the world's leader, I am glad it is the U.S.
Agreed. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 3:58:30 PM
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| Me too! |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 5:14:24 PM
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Why are you quoting me on "ulitmate peace" when I didn't say anything at all like that? I'm not so naïve that I think that can be a reality, so I don't appreciate the "grow up" comment either.
And no, I'm not saying the casualties of WWII were without cause. You've taken my statement out of context. Yes, Hitler needed to be stopped and there were many casualties when it came to soldiers. I didn't debate the issue soldier casualties, coalition or Iraqi, of this war. Keep in mind in WWII we didn't kill a few thousand of the civilian Jews in concentration camps while attempting to take out the German leaders. |
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pcbTIM
Alien Abductee
USA
6501 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 7:12:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
I hope it doesn't come to that but I honestly don't like the idea of American going around and imposing our views on every country that disagrees with us.
Naw. Only the disagreeing countries that have something we want. |
Gay marriage killed the dinosaurs. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 8:34:17 PM
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| What does North Korea have that we want? |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 10:57:32 PM
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Poparad I would be pissed at the "grow up" comment too! I don't get the comparison. In WWII Hitler was the agressor. We didn't get into the war for quite some TIMe. Not until we were attacked. We didn't fight Hitler to save the Jews we fought it to save us, and just so happened to save a lot of Jews and other people in the process.
You might say the same is true of this war. 9-11 being the attack on us. I have heard lately that there is supposedly links to BinLaden and Sadam but I find it very hard to believe. Even so, that is not the reason we were given for going into Iraq. It was not to "save a people" it was to find weapons of mass destruction which to my knowledge has yet to happen.
Governments and PR people are very good at planting the seeds of what they want to put across to the public. Much is said about bringing democracy to Iraq and I believe the govenment is fully aware that they are not going to be able to come up with proof of the weapons and are betting on the fact that most Americans will feel so good about a "victory" they will forget the real reason we went there.
Saying now, oh look what we've done,we freed a people and brought democracy to yet another country is just plain Bull Shit!!!! Woopie, yes fine maybe a good thing but I still am mad that we went there. I don't believe in being the police of the world and I didn't find justification to fighting this war.
People were so happy when the Berlin wall came down and the Soviet Union was broken up but in reality while some good came of it a lot of bad did too. Uranium and other components of nuclear warheads are now unaccounted for. The underground market has moved much of it out of that area and into the very hands of people we know as terroists.
We need to be very cautious in feeling too good about all this because we have yet to see who will take charge of Iraq. Be sure that we are pushing to put who we want in the top leadership role. I for one do not have a good feeling about the whole war and YES I am still opposed to it! I am still Anti-War!
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"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2003 : 11:02:09 PM
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I totally agree with you on that.
And as a side note, to those of you who disagree, thank you for being civil about it. I took a visit to the website in the "Worst Website Ever" thread and after reading all that hateful and unfounded mudslinging over there I'm glad to hang out at a board with a group of peope who are capable of civil debate.  |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 02:25:13 AM
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And vice versa. 
I appreciate civil debates too. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 11:46:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
I totally agree with you on that.
And as a side note, to those of you who disagree, thank you for being civil about it. I took a visit to the website in the "Worst Website Ever" thread and after reading all that hateful and unfounded mudslinging over there I'm glad to hang out at a board with a group of peope who are capable of civil debate.
yeah, i totally agree there. i'm another strong anti-war person, but i have my personal reasons, and everytime i try to debate them it gets too "heated" for my tastes, so i just comment as little as possible. That website(worst web site) was pretty horrific reading, especially the dave matthews one. do they really think their boycott will go anywhere? |
www.myspace.com/smileymnbass
http://itunes.apple.com/us/preorder/quartet-art/id423870767
www.mattsmiley.blogpost.com |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 1:53:19 PM
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| Even if their boycott doesn't work, it's their right to boycott. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 2:05:37 PM
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| As much as I'm a HUGE Dave fan...I have to admit, there are a lot of times that he seems less than eloquent. Sometimes it seems like he doesn't really think his arguments through before he presents them. It strikes me as odd, because some of his lyrics are incredible and he seems to have no shortage of them. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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GRock
Try A Little Harder
93 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 2:49:44 PM
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i think he just says what he is thinking right then and there. kind of a free-spirit type of person i guess.
and some of the stuff on that website is pretty mean. and that's not called for. let's be civil and calm about this stuff. am i right?? my best friend in HS was a guy who i disagreed about nearly everything except that we respected eachother's opinions. it gave us plenty to talk about and debate. that was one of my best relationships i've ever had. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 3:30:05 PM
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I haven't met anyone on these boards (except the occaisional troll) that didn't respect everyone's right to have their own opinions on the matter. I respect the anti-war point of view, I just don't hold it myself.
My point about Dave was regarding interviews and things that he had plenty of time to be prepared for. He was interviewed by some reporter about the One Sweet Whirled campaign and in it, he said (not a direct quote) "the effect of global warming is obvious...there are parts of the world where it's warmer than its ever been and parts of the world where it's snowing and it never has." Rush Limbaugh had a hay day with that one.
He's obviously on the liberal side, so there are a large number of his arguments that I disagree with. I respect his opinion, I just disagree with them. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 3:45:58 PM
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That is how it should be CPPJames! I feel the same way. I think this board is made up of people who respect each other. I think some people elsewhere and occasionally here just get deffensive of their views.
I for one like hearing other peoples views when they are stated in a mature and intelligent manner, which most of the posts on this board are.
Everyone has a right to change their opinions as well and I have done so many times. I used to be very far on the right. Staunch Republican, now I consider myself a Libertarian, but some of my family thinks I am far left and overly liberal.
I tend to be "left" on foreign policy and environmental issues and more to the "right" on the economy.
I am interested in everyones views even if I don't agree with them because I never know when someone may come up with a point I never thought about or a view I never considered. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 3:56:05 PM
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| I'm basically the exact same way. I was always far right on everything. Lately my views have shifted at least slightly left on human rights/politics in general, but I'm still right of center. The economy I don't think I'll ever change my opinion on. Less taxes, less government. The government should exist to do the things we can't do for ourselves as individuals...and only for that purpose. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Xar666
Yak Addict
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 4:00:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
Why are you quoting me on "ulitmate peace" when I didn't say anything at all like that? I'm not so naïve that I think that can be a reality, so I don't appreciate the "grow up" comment either.
And no, I'm not saying the casualties of WWII were without cause. You've taken my statement out of context. Yes, Hitler needed to be stopped and there were many casualties when it came to soldiers. I didn't debate the issue soldier casualties, coalition or Iraqi, of this war. Keep in mind in WWII we didn't kill a few thousand of the civilian Jews in concentration camps while attempting to take out the German leaders.
Perhaps I was too harsh. I apologize for the insults. I was just fed up with the touchy-feely attitudes of some of the anti-war posters here. I will respect anti-war opinions if they are backed with legitimate reasons.
I just cannot stand the "we should all just smoke a bowl and love each other, man" attitude. Those people need to get in the real world and see that that shit is not going to happen anytime soon. You never presented that stance so, again, you have my apologies for the unnecessary insults. |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 5:48:28 PM
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 Glad to see we're cool about it. |
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victorwootenfan
Alien Abductee
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2003 : 6:10:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar666
quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
Why are you quoting me on "ulitmate peace" when I didn't say anything at all like that? I'm not so naïve that I think that can be a reality, so I don't appreciate the "grow up" comment either.
And no, I'm not saying the casualties of WWII were without cause. You've taken my statement out of context. Yes, Hitler needed to be stopped and there were many casualties when it came to soldiers. I didn't debate the issue soldier casualties, coalition or Iraqi, of this war. Keep in mind in WWII we didn't kill a few thousand of the civilian Jews in concentration camps while attempting to take out the German leaders.
I just cannot stand the "we should all just smoke a bowl and love each other, man" attitude.
And by the that i'm gonna assume you're referring to me... |
www.myspace.com/smileymnbass
http://itunes.apple.com/us/preorder/quartet-art/id423870767
www.mattsmiley.blogpost.com |
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Still Anti-War?
