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Most subject specific message boards do not allow political or religious debates because they usually get too heated. (See above)

However, I think they should be allowed. This is real conversation. If you truly consider the people on these boards to be friends you should value their opinions on real issues, not just TR related material. This is after all, the Misc forum. There is a TR specific forum.

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Originally I was not going to comment on the debate above. However, after reading it again I have decided to.

DISCLAIMER: I mean no offense to anyone here; this is simply my humble opinion.

Fluffy you present excellent points. When you make a statement you try your best to provide actual third-party, verifiable sources to back up what you say. I agree with about 92% of your beliefs. However, I am not complimenting you simply because I agree with you. If I agreed with nothing you stated, I would still take the points you made into consideration because of the format you presented them in.

However, I do think near the end you started to take things personally and lost control a little. I think that is understandable because of the obvious passion you have for the subject matter. (By the way my great grandfather was 100% Cherokee. However my Scottish side won the chromosome battle and I turned out looking as white as can be.)

Isaac, you were doing ok at first. Then you began to slack off and just attack Fluff's words instead of his points. Maybe you do have some stronger feelings about these issues and just don't feel like presenting them strongly enough. Or maybe Fluffy overwhelmed you with too much verifiable, unbiased information for you to build a strong enough argument and you could not bring yourself to bow out.

Isaac wrote:
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I was brainwashed at an early age by staunch republican parents, and it resulted in me being one big hairy asshole conservative myself.

It just seems to me that you are like most mainstream people. You are happy with a standard, urban middle-class lifestyle and have no desire or drive to realize that underneath the pretty surface that the media/govt/society creates there is a lot of fucked up issues in the world today.

Isaac wrote:
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I'm the one whose content, and I’m the one who feels like I could change things if I wanted.

This is what really struck me. You just don’t' seem to care about anyone else but yourself to actually see if you could change anything. You wouldn’t even read all of what Fluffy had to say on certain issues before you responded.

Isaac wrote:
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The thing is, we all have lots of power over our gov't, on one level we could all be writing letters to our congressmen or going around printing up pamphlets and making others aware of things that are wrong in the world, or on another level we could all be grass roots campaigning and running for city offices and changing the way our local communities are for starters.
Most of you will just blow that off saying "I don't have enough money to campaign for shit" but it is possible for people with good ideas to get noticed and work their way up in the political world, to sit back and say I don't have enough money or its to corrupt is a fucking cop out preventing any of us from trying. Our whole country is based on small bands of people with similar beliefs rising up and fighting for what they believed in and most of the time it was against things scarier then "wealthy corrupt politicians


This is what Fluffy has been trying to present to you. You say that people can change the world if they really want to. And yet you have know idea if this is true or not, because you don't give a shit enough to try.

I don't know what your background is. I have worked for various government agencies and giant corporations. Take for instance this situation with the Enron bankruptcy. I worked with Enron traders for a year. I can tell you from experience, the corporate world is a fucked up, twisted place. No one cares about real issues or other people’s strife. They all smile and spew forth fake pleasantries so they can backstab each other to make more MONEY. They only want a bigger SUV and a nicer house to expand their giant ego. It is truly sick. I was in utter shock of the betrayal and lies these seemingly normal people would commit for scraps from the corporate table.

You might want to open your eyes and try to understand other people’s points without relying on your small history.

What Fluffy is saying is that in his attempts at trying to change the wrongs of the world he has, through experience, realized that it is not as easy as you believe. The government will try to stop what they believe is a threat to their power. Just look at Pat Buchanan’s newest book: Death of the West: How Dying Populations and Immigrant Invasions Imperil Our Country and Civilization. Which really translates into - The Death of the White Man's Cruel Society.

If you don’t' care enough to try to change what's wrong with the world then just state that and be done.

In conclusion, I do not have any ill will toward you. This is simply my interpretation of your posts.

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Xar, thank you for summing it up so eloquently for me as well. As you can all tell my emotions were getting the best of me as well as alot of frustration at my points not being addressed. I feel I was getting to a point where it was hard to be so eloquent. Thanx for condensing it all and explaining it as well as you did. It is good to see that my comments have not gone unread or misunderstood by all. Oh and by the way, You all don't have to agree with my points, it is wonderful that you all have read them and can now take them into consideration when making your own decisions on ideas and beliefs. Thanx again Xar!!

Patrick Said:

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but it upsets me(and really surprises me) to see that every one of your posts is basically a stab at Isaac. I always thought of this board as a place that we can agree to disagree. And if it's not really even a matter of that, but Isaac's ignorance just frustrates you to no end, please "turn it into love". Right/wrong/ignorant/whatever, I hope Isaac doesn't take it too personally. It'd be a shame to lose one of our friends.

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Well Patrick, It also distresses me to see that it appears not only Isaac is missing my point. You say that all my posts are stabs at Isaac. If you are commenting on the posts all over the board. I would agree with you. If you are referring to my posts in the "God" post, I totally disagree, I kept the whole converstion geared toward the topics at hand with no "stabs" at Isaac. Isaac, in MY estimation is the one taking stabs in the "god" post. My other posts are merely a negative response(childish) to a degenerating situation. I have already apologized to everyone else on the board for becoming so public with my anger at his comments. I think you will find many posts in the past where I was the peacemaker. Saying the exact same words. "Agree to Disagree" Only my anger is not with any disagreement. Go back and read the "God" post. I have stated on numerous occasions that I do not care whether Isaac agrees or disagrees, I am just trying to make him aware of alternate viewpoints. He chose to take to the "personal attacks" that I took so personally. I continue as always to believe 2 people can disagree and still get along. I am not angry with Isaac for disagreeing, in fact I encourage it. As evidenced by comments throughout my lengthy posts. I will not concede that when 1 starts insulting that I need to remain civil. I guess in a perfect world we should be able to turn the other cheek. There are many insults I can take lightly and turn the other cheek for. Some of Isaacs go beyond that level for me. They are truly some of the most OFFENSIVE comments every leveled against me. And let me assure you, I have had my fair share of derogatory comments hurled at me throughout my life. Never giving a care to whether someone thought I was an asshole or not. What others think is of no real significance to me. I am confident enough in the person that I am not be phased by slack jawed comments, but when it comes from a supposed friend, I have a much different reaction. On the other hand, comments about my integrity, sincerity, motivation, etc etc etc, when I have CLEARLY stated my intention and purpose numerous times. Still everyone seems to get the wrong impression. Sorry you all got the wrong impression. Give yourselves a few years and maybe you will figure out what I am talking about. You asked me to turn it to love. Well just so everyone knows, let me state for the record that I DO NOT HATE ISAAC. I just think he is immature and unwilling to listen to anything else beyond what he believes. He got himself into a conversation way over his head. It is all my fault for thinking I could have a conversation like that and have any of it comprehended in the manner I hoped. If I am seen as the ranting madman, then all have missed the point. That saddens me. Maybe after some time and water under the bridge when it is not so much like salt in a fresh wound, you can go back read the post from top to bottom and hopefully get more out of it than you have so far. Once again I apologize to everyone for losing it so publicly when I was so viciously attacked. I admit it was childish but what the hey. As evidenced by many past posts I sure you will see that this is totally out of character for me. But maybe it will help to convey just how offended I truly was, that I would lose my kewl so badly for what everyone else seems to view as a minor incident. I guess I truly am in the MINORITY!


Patrick Said:

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Yeah, like I said I totally understand where you were going in the "god" topic. I was just talking about the posts all over the place. I can see where you would take offense to some of the things Isaac said, and understand how anger can get the best of us sometimes. It makes me feel a lot better to know that you understand where I was coming from on that.
Just want to state again that I totally understand and would back you up in the "god" topic, it's just the posts made everywhere that got to me. I certainly don't see you as a "ranting madman". And also it takes a good man to say he's sorry. Like you said it was definitely out of character for you which is why I said I was surprised to see it. Anyway, thanks for clearing things up for us.

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I am glad someone noticed that my behavior was totally out of character and again I am sorry it surprised you. All I am really interested in at this point is "clearing things up" and letting the board go on as b4. It was a great board b4 my rantings. And yes, I was a ranting MADman. Sorry again.

Liz K Said:

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You certainly don't have to apologize for expressing you feelings. I commend you for your compassion in trying to share your feelings. You know the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink! I have decided when I encounter people like that, it's just not worth the time or the stress.

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Thanx for the kind words, but unfortunately I have to disagree with the last part. Although, unfortunately I am certainly inclined to agree with you on this one. But seriously, I think it is worth the time to try and educate others. I want to live in a world of free thinking people who make their own decisions and don't live by the spoon-fed propoganda they usually hear. I want people to have both sides of the picture. That way they can make a more informed decision. I will agree that it is not worth the stress. As I have stress about this for far too long and it has started to invade every aspect of my life. That is a bad thing. B4 this whole post crisis, I was in the best possible mood. My job situation was better than every, by personal life was better than ever, and I was happier than I had ever been in the past 15 years, as a whole. Unfortunately, I have taken this whole thing way to seriously and personnally. I wish I could have let it go. Unfortunately, I feel very strongly about it and it is not in my nature, although it sounds like it would have been better for everyone involved, including me. Now I find myself in a serious depression because of it all, and it is all over a stupid fucking post. HOW STUPID. It does not change the way I feel, it just makes me realize more I seriously I take it. Maybe to seriously, I don't know. I just wish I could go back in time and erase the whole situation. If I had thought about or known the outcome I certainly would have dropped it along time ago. It is not worth all the hubbub it has become. For that, I am sorry.

Pantshappy Said:

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i'm not against Isaac (and i'm sure you're not either), i think he can be funny when he wants to be and also a friend to people on this board.

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I am glad someone sees this. It was never about being "against Isaac" or "brainwashing Isaac" or "hating Isaac and his beliefs". It was about educating Isaac to more facts, ideas and concepts. Unfortunately it spiraled out of control and we find ourselves in this mess where both Black Lotus and Isaac have disappeared. It was never my intention to drive people from the board and I am crushed that my behavior has resulted in that. I hope they will be the bigger men and return to the board and not let this drive them away. I would sooner leave than tear you guys apart.

Silky Said:

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Fluffy, I sincerely hope that you will just be the bigger man on this one...

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Thanx for all the kind words, but I don't think it is about being the bigger man. At the risk of being accused of thinking I am better than anyone else or putting myself on a pedastal, I feel I was the bigger man thru the whole "God" post. Then when he got personal, I acted like a child. I am not leaving out of anger, I am leaving cause I think it is in the best interest of the board. I am not walking away from it because I can't handle it, I am walking away so I do not ruin this wonderful thing we have here on the board. I also feel that I now have to defend every comment I make so it will not be misconstrued or misunderstood, basically I am uncomfortable posting on the board because I now see how easy it is to offend or have comments taken out of context. I used to feel I could say whatever I wanted and did not have to worry about offending anyone. That is gone for me and I feel it is at least partially my fault. Again I am sorry for changing the dynamic of the board, the one thing that kept me coming back. I feel like I have crushed the spirit of the board, and I feel like a piece of shit. SORRY!!

pcbdmb Said:

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I haven't really read the god topic either (just skimmed through it) and I would like to hear his side of the story. I mean, if you read all the posts, we are all blaming Isaac (directly or indirectly) and we haven't heard anything from him. Now what he said in the god topic might have been completely out of line, I don't know. But I would like to see both side of the story before I make any futher judgments.

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There is no blame to be placed here. I certainly hope noone blames Isaac. If you read the post I think you will see what I am talking about. I don't know why everyone always feels they have to blame someone. There is NO BLAME for this situation, except maybe my uncontrollable temper in these situations. I also would like to hear from Isaac. I think his side in this is invalualble, since he is the other person involved. I hope I have not driven him away from the board. That would be a horrible thing and something that I will have to live with. I would feel horrible. To have destroyed the friendship between the board and Isaac. He made me laugh many times and considered him a friend. Friends should be able to work out their differences or at least be able to come to an agreement to agree to disagree and go on with being friends. Unfortunately it did not go that way. I don't know what else I can do. Every option I have examined seems to have a negative outcome. The worst of which is how I changed the dynamic of the board and drove people away. Again I am sorry for that.

babtunji Said:

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yes, true, isaac has frosted my gonads with a number of his insights (?), but a message board is a forum, simply that. an exchange of ideas. some opinions are contrary to ours, we have to try to respect those opinions, not get too pissed or take it too personally. with my first post, i got slammed...big time...and that's mmmkay. no reason to leave dodge.
perhaps we all need to approach this with a common respect for each other...whether or not we agree with each other.

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I always respect the opinions of others and I did not get pissed at his opinions. I did not take his opinions as a personal attack. If you go back to the "God" post, I think you will see there was a personal attack leveled against me and that was when I lost it. IF I am wrong, please let me know, as I feel it was a personal attack. I encourage everyone to have their own ideas and opinions and even when I disagree I have never lost it. I think my past posts will prove that. I have disagreed with many on the board. It was never a big thing. It still isn't and should not become one. Although I believe that by my actions I have changed that. I am afraid the board will never be the same because of it and I feel horrible that it was my actions that brought about this horrible change. I would love to see the board go on as b4, but I am a pessimist and believe I have ruined it for all involved. Again, I am sorry for that.(Geez, I am fucking tired of saying I am sorry! HEHE)

Saint Jude Said:

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I did this to my best friend too, and we got over it, like i think you two should. not to say one was right or wrong, in fact i agree with you fulf rather then Issac (i didnt read everything but the jist of it i think i got), but leaving here doesnt solve the problem, infact i would love it for you to return to the page and give us as much knowladge that u can on said subject, and various others that you find important. Becasuse that is what humans are suposed to do, they are suposed to educate themselves and try to shape the world around them they way they see fit, and you cant do that if u run and hide.

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I would love for Isaac and I to get past this. But based on his comments towards me I don't think he can and I have not seen anything from him showing he cares at all about getting past it. That is unfortunate. I am glad you and your friend were able to agree to disagree. I do not think that leaving here will solve anything. Except maybe to allow everyone else to go on as b4 and maybe get the board back to the dynamic that made it so great. I hoped that by my leaving Isaac and members like Black Lotus would not feel a need to leave. Black Lotus was having a great time b4 I went off and then he said I had changed the whole feeling on the board so he had to leave. That is what I feel worst about. That I caused people to leave. That I changed the attitude of the board. Just so ya know, I am not running and hiding. If I was gonna do that I would have dropped that discussion in the "God" post long ago. I hope, as evidenced by the "God" post, I am not someowe who runs and hides from a confrontation. To me the confrontation is over and I feel leaving would be best for the board. I feel everyone sees me as the "BAD GUY" in this and that is a lousy way to feel, when I was only stating MY facts. Then when I was attacked, I reacted, albiet badly, but that is just my nature, to defend my character when attacked. I stand up for myself and my beliefs, and that seems to have made me the "BAD GUY". My hope was that if I left the board could go on as b4 without any ill-will among the members and nobody trying to place the blame or pointing fingers. As evidenced by my continually return to answer these comments, I am not "running" or "hiding" from MY actions. I am just trying to help everyone understand them. My sister has seen me overreact thru my entire life to what most would consider the most minor of situations. I overreacted as recently as LA when my laptop crashed and my hair caught on fire. My sister once lost $100, she came to see me at the store and I freaked when she told me. I overreact sometimes, I know this about myself. It really sucks to have to apologize for yourself over and over again when you know what you did was wrong and you wish you could take it all back. It's my personality flaw and I apologize for it.

Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy