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BenPezzner
Try A Little Harder
USA
75 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2006 : 10:39:19 AM
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There's a thread in the ants musicians forum that started out as a "most skilled musician in dmb" poll, but the topic has recently shifted to whether Bob Dylan or TR is a better musician, based on the fact that Bob can write better lyrics.
My argument is lyric-writing shouldn't really be a factor in establishing musicianship. (I'm in the TR-is-by-far-a-better-musician-than-bob-dylan camp)
But I guess it all comes down to everyone's personal definition of "musician." Thoughts? Comments?
Here's the thread: http://www.antsmarching.org/forum/showthread.php?t=173908 (post #16)
Ben |
www.pezshow.com |
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guitfiddler
Chatterbox
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 10:46:08 AM
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| Bob Dylan is the best song writer ever, hands down. But even many of his own songs sound like shit when he plays them. If he tried to play anything close to what Tim plays, he'd probably shit himself. Bob Dylan is a poet, who happens to know how to play the guitar. TR is a musician |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 10:52:16 AM
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Well, Personally I think the whole "apples to oranges" game is a waste of TIMe. It's all opinion and like they say, everyone has one.
I would tend to disagree that lyrics have little to do with the music.Take the lyrics out of some songs like Dylan's Mr Tambourine Man for example and it becomes just a nice little tune.(which I guess makes your point) But the same can be said for some of TR's songs, Indoctrinate for example, remove the lyrics and the whole feeling of the song changes.
I can see your point about "musicianship" and it's a good one IMO, and perhaps it is comparing a musician with an artist? I don't know.
Really, what does it matter? Songs that touch the soul, regardless of lyrics or musical talent, is what matters and like opinions, we all have those special songs we hold dear to our hearts. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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BenPezzner
Try A Little Harder
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 11:14:01 AM
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| I agree... it is an apples to oranges thing, nobody's going to be right or wrong here. As I said, it all comes down to everyone's personal definition of what comprises "musicianship." |
www.pezshow.com |
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Robin
Yak Addict
USA
598 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 11:45:25 AM
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| Yep, apples to oranges a pointless debate. Art is what moves you regardless. Lyrics to me make up the whole, when you begin dissecting, it loses it's magic. |
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Biff the Pig
Chatterbox
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 12:51:59 PM
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| honestly i used to not care for TR's lyrics, but then i started actually listening to them, and they are really pretty good. From this World, and Dreaming are two good examples in my opinion. TR is an amazing musician all around. i really dont listen to bob dylan ever...sorry? |
www.myspace.com/travismoore3 |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2006 : 11:07:57 PM
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robin, i disagree with your definition of art on the basis that it is too broad. surely art moves you, but is that the only criterion? i don't think it is, because many things happen that move you. for instance, you can be moved by being united with someone you haven't seen in years. you can be moved by tragedy. you can be moved when someone says "i love you." is tragedy art? is saying "i love you" art? and if tragedy is art, are those who create tragedy artists? your definition covers the very important aspect of art that is emotion and feeling, but ignores the very important aspect of craft. art isn't happenstance. art doesn't just happen randomly. art is made conciously, knowingly, and with attention to detail going into the work. it's creation. that's what makes it special. there is no art without craft, just as there is no art without emotion.
as for the better musician, no, it's not about apples and oranges. it's really very simple. tim reynolds is the better musician in every regard. some things in art are not subjective. this is one of them. when you look at what makes a musician good, tim reynolds possesses those qualities far more than does dylan. that doesn't mean you can't like bob dylan. i hesitate to even go into why. it should be obvious. listen to bob dylan, then listen to tim reynolds. tr is a better musician. it's a conclusion that can be arrived at through empirical evidence. but if your tastes favor dylan, fine. that doesn't mean your wrong. i used to think it so, but that was stupid of me. there's nothing wrong with liking bob dylan, if that's your taste. but neither does liking him make him any better a musician. taste is subjective. musicality and craft are not.
and i wholeheartedly disagree with people who say lyrics are an important part of music. false. my proof? there are songs without words. if words were so important, then every piece of music without words would be lacking. if you take the words out a song, but leave the vocal melody, and the song ceased to be good, it was never any good to begin with. it means that the vocal melody isn't well made, and there's nothing in the rest of the music to help it. if you want to know how good a person or band is at writing music, find an instrumental version of some of his songs. tool songs, for example, remain excellent even when arranged for a string quartet, because the music, the honest-to-god notes and rhythm are well crafted. i can't quite imagine hearing a bob dylan song arranged instrumentally for anything being any good. that's why bob dylan is not the better musician.
he is an artist, though. bob dylan is a poet, and he's a damn good one. he's excellent with words and verse. he surpasses almost everyone. but musically? it's just not all that good on the objective level. |
death to false metal. |
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Ranting Thespian
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 03:15:41 AM
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Wait, apples and oranges are different? 
Omg, what am I going to tell my wife!?!  |
Not communicating can hurt more than any word that can be said -
Nick
-the Ranting Thespian |
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skyline
Chatterbox
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 12:03:15 PM
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I love them both. What else matters?
Did you guys see the Dylan videos released be Google in celebration of his new album? It's got some good stuff on there, my favorite being Dylan's performance on the first Johnny Cash show. It has two solo performances of Nashville Skyline songs followed by a Duet with Cash on Girl from the North Country. Priceless.
Does it get much better than Dylan and Cash together on the Ryman stage?
Plus, I absolutely LOVE Dylan's voice from the Nashville Skyline era. It's so strange to watch the man and hear that voice come out of him. |
http://www.dmbforums.com |
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KevinLesko
Alien Abductee
3712 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 5:23:20 PM
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| Has anyone heard anything about the new Dylan disc that comes out on Monday? I haven't heard any reviews. |
god
Kevin |
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Ranting Thespian
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 8:38:25 PM
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I have to say, I almost always like Dylan's original version better than the covers. I like Dylan's Mr. Tambourine Man better than the Byrd's. That song really should ONLY be preformed solo acoustic and vocals. I love the performance at that folk festival you see on No Direction Home.
The only one I that I can say ties with Dylan's is DMB's Watchtower . . . with Tim ;) . |
Not communicating can hurt more than any word that can be said -
Nick
-the Ranting Thespian |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 8:45:43 PM
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| I too like DMB's Watch Tower, with TR (and w/o) but my favorite version is Jimi Hendrix, hands down. Again, all just a matter of personal opinion. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Ranting Thespian
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2006 : 10:25:27 PM
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| I really respect Hendrix's abilities and what he contributed to rock/blues/hardrock/metal and so much more, but I am just not a huge fan. Not that I don't like hearing him, just he doesn't knock my socks off like he does to others. Again, though, I respect the man. I mean, without him SRV wouldn't have been like he was (I love SRV). |
Not communicating can hurt more than any word that can be said -
Nick
-the Ranting Thespian |
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skyline
Chatterbox
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 08:20:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranting Thespian
I really respect Hendrix's abilities and what he contributed to rock/blues/hardrock/metal and so much more, but I am just not a huge fan. Not that I don't like hearing him, just he doesn't knock my socks off like he does to others. Again, though, I respect the man. I mean, without him SRV wouldn't have been like he was (I love SRV).
Ouch! How can you love SRV, but then say Hendrix doesn't "knock your socks off"!?
Honestly...some people... 
P.S. Hope you know I'm just giving you a hard time for kicks. It's all subjective. Well...except this time when it's not. Any moron could see that Hendrix is the man! What's your problem!?
Wait...just kidding again.
I think.  |
http://www.dmbforums.com |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 11:29:46 AM
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I really don't understand why the Ants folks always find it necessary to start these kinds of things. I mean, you could have a thread about White Castle hamburgers and they'd turn it into "What's better: White Castle or Tim Reynolds?"
For some reason it seems that there are DMB fans that always want to state that *something* is better than Tim Reynolds, and it is usually another artist/musican that you can't even compare to him. Personally, I hate comparing any artist with another. The reason I like different artists/bands is that they ARE different! I love Bob Dylan's music, and I obviously love Tim Reynolds' music, and I don't trouble myself over which is better, or which I like better.
And...in my opinion writing lyrics has nothing to do with being a musician. You can write awesome lyrics and be a crap guitar player, or not even play guitar! There are plenty of bands that have singers that don't play instruments, but that do write lyrics. |
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skyline
Chatterbox
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 11:40:31 AM
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quote:
And...in my opinion writing lyrics has nothing to do with being a musician. You can write awesome lyrics and be a crap guitar player, or not even play guitar! There are plenty of bands that have singers that don't play instruments, but that do write lyrics.
I'll disagree with that. It takes a special talent to write words that flow within a certain song. You have to be able to develop some sort of rhythmic mesh between the two, and come up with the right words to express thoughts in small phrases.
No...it's not everything, and it's not necessary to be a good musician. Like you said, you can write good lyrics, but suck with instruments or the other way around.
Still, I think it's a very legitimate aspect of good musicianship as a whole, and I'd be hard-pressed to come up with an argument that says the two are unrelated. |
http://www.dmbforums.com |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2006 : 5:27:58 PM
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| Yeah, I do agree with you. And I realize that saying that they have absolutely nothing to do with one another is an over-statement. But I do think you can be a kick ass musician, and either not a lyricist at all, or a sub-par lyricist. But if you are a singer/guitarist/songwriter, lyric writing is a big part of the entire end product. |
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Ranting Thespian
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 12:40:04 AM
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Now you guys see why I don't go onto dmb messege boards anymore . . . they get insane ;) .
I wonder if Tim thinks Whitecastles are better than him. hmmm? |
Not communicating can hurt more than any word that can be said -
Nick
-the Ranting Thespian |
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skyline
Chatterbox
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 07:59:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranting Thespian
Now you guys see why I don't go onto dmb messege boards anymore . . . they get insane ;) .
Try my site (in my sig). I promise you won't find anything less than praise for Tim ;) |
http://www.dmbforums.com |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 10:34:04 AM
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So the mail comes the other day and I look down at the Rolling Stone Mag and who is on the cover? Bob Dylan! And I think to myself AGAIN, why hasn't TIM ever been on the cover? Those folks at RS need to get with the times! LOL
skyline, you will laugh when I tell you I get Rolling Stone because I had to support the school magazine drive.....oh what we get suckered into when working at a school! LOL |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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skyline
Chatterbox
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 7:38:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by PJK
skyline, you will laugh when I tell you I get Rolling Stone because I had to support the school magazine drive.....oh what we get suckered into when working at a school! LOL
Tell me about it. I spent 4 hours at school yesterday helping out with a booster club car wash. |
http://www.dmbforums.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 11:12:50 PM
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i don't see how there can be any argument against writing good lyrics not being necessary to good musicianship. they are totally unrelated. there are excellent musicians who do not write lyrics. therefore, lyrics are not a necessary part. i really see no room for argument.
i treat lyrics two ways. the first way i listen to lyrics, and to me the most important, is that i view them as pegs on which to hang the vocal melody, or vocal rhythm, if no vocal melody is present. then i view how they fit in with the music's overall tone. |
death to false metal. |
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Ranting Thespian
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 12:41:42 AM
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x = art
y = not art
x is defined by a
y is defined by b
b and a are defined by y+o+u
That's art folks. |
Not communicating can hurt more than any word that can be said -
Nick
-the Ranting Thespian |
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skyline
Chatterbox
USA
143 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 08:16:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i don't see how there can be any argument against writing good lyrics not being necessary to good musicianship. they are totally unrelated. there are excellent musicians who do not write lyrics. therefore, lyrics are not a necessary part. i really see no room for argument.
I think that's what we were saying earlier. Lyrics are NOT necessary. However, lyric writing, in general, is a musical talent on many levels. That's the point I was trying to make, at least. |
http://www.dmbforums.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 3:36:42 PM
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| oh, well in that case, yes. i agree. |
death to false metal. |
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Bob Dylan or Tim Reynolds
