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AGirlNamedPsycho
Try A Little Harder
USA
70 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2005 : 12:08:17 AM
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So I've never quite understood how to apply stacked fourths to music, so I set down with it and took it apart and got some weird results and I was hoping a theory nerd could help me make sense of it.
First I took the chord C F Bb Eb and determined the chords it represents using inversions. Since there's no triad in a chord like this the root can potential be any of the notes, so it seemed like the place to start.
To determine the chord name I spread out some of the notes to avoid intervals smaller than seconds. In application, though, I wouldn't do that.
Root | Inversion | Chord
C | C Eb Bb F | Cmin11
F | F C Eb Bb | F11
Bb | Bb F C Eb | Bb11
Eb | Eb Bb F C | Eb13
Most of them don't even have a third so they're pretty ambiguous. In fact it wouldn't be hard to imagine the first inversion replacing C7#9. Thinking about that I wondered if I could use these chords in b5 substitution, so I drew another silly chart and I got this weirdness:
b5 | Extentions | Chord
Gb | C Eb Bb F | Gbmaj13#11
Cb | F C Eb Bb | Cbmaj7b9#11
E* | Bb F C Eb | Emaj7b5b9b13
A* | Eb Bb F C | Adimb9b13
* denotes enharmonics.
Usually when a chord has as many extensions as the third one it means you're assuming the root's in the wrong place, so I discounted it as viable. I also discounted the second chord, since it's a maj7b9 chord and the root is buried by surrounding tones. The other ones looked good on paper and sounded very nice so I added them to my incredibly scientifically determined list.
Then I got a little arbitrary. Adimb9b13 was sonically pleasing but I recognized that the same shape could pretty easily describe Ab13. So without any mathing I added Ab13 to the list of possible subs.
For my benefit I drew it all out; the main chord and its list of potential 'roots'.
e:--------------
B:--------4-----
G:-----3--------
D:-----3--------
A:-----3--------
E:-(2)---(4)(5)-
I noticed it has seven different tones so I drew it in a more linear way and got this:
e:-----------------
B:-----------------
G:-----------2-3-5-
D:-----3-4-6-------
A:-3-6-------------
E:-----------------
I didn't much care for the 3 half-steps between the first two notes. I mean I know it happens, like with Melodic Minor scales and all, but I didn't like it here. I looked at the pattern that was being expressed on the fretboard and I already knew that sonically I liked the sound of a Db9add6 chord, which the original stacked fourth chord outlines pretty well so I added Db to the emerging scale. It was only half arbitrary this time :P
e:-------------------|
B:-------------------|
G:-------------2-3-5-|
D:-------3-4-6-------|
A:-3-4-6-------------|
E:-------------------|
It's at this point that I'm starting to realize why free jazz and bebop is so fucken weird sometimes. The above scale is, with the exception of the A natural, a mode of the C# major scale. And anyone who knows a fair amount about jazz knows that altered runs are pretty nut, so that additional #5 isn't out of place at all. To bring back the notion of flat-five subbing, C# can stand in for G7 as the V7 since the 3-b7 tritone in both chords is the same. So my brain hurts now, because all I wanted to do was understand stacked fourths better and it ended up explaining Jazz Theory 101 to me, and now my head thinks that C and C# are the same thing. I don't think I should be allowed to play guitar anymore :( Does anyone know what I'm supposed to do with this weirdness? Did I get it right?
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 07:10:46 AM
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| All this weirdness is nothing but numbers to sounds. What matters is what it sounds like and how you use it. Use theory like this as a means of finding new relationships on the fretboard, as you are already doing, but remember you're playing music, not math. So with that in mind, absorb your theory as it applies to your ear and to the fretboard. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 11:20:35 AM
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i love this. guitarpimp is right, and that in the midst of all of this, it's the sound that counts. but theory is a pathway to many new sounds that some consider to be unnatural.
what you might try to do, though, is consider enharmonic spellings of these chords. you'll find that there's thirds to be had. at first glance the one that jumps out is Bb F C Eb. now, switch bflat to a#. you now have a# f c eflat. which, in root position is f a# c eflat. which is simply some manner of f7. or you could change eflat to d# and have a# f c d#, in root d# f a# c, and it becomes again, some form of d7. again, i don't what you would call those, but if for nothing other than notation amd reading purposes, i think tertian (spelling?) harmony is easier to deal with. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 2:46:02 PM
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Ya, I agree with what dan and guitaris said, only to steal something from futureman we are playing math, but music is math understood emotionally (maybe in this case intuitively could be used too).
As far as the theory stuff goes, I would say that you are using so-what chords. Like as in the Miles tune, so what. They are used heavily in modal playing. If you really want to dig into voicings like this I would suggest grabbing any number of books found in the abersold catalog. If you have a piano handy for you then there are some really great piano voicing books that can be gone through and then put to use on guitar. Studying voicing is essential to everyone who wants to be a composer or improv player.
Basically you're on to the answer theoretically as far as these are just extensions to triads. Any good piano player who has spent any time with a big band will be able to tell you a million times more about voicings in fourths then I can, but the only thing about voicing in fourths instead of just off of triads is that the chords just cut through so much better. Also it doesn't mean the entire chord is built off of fourths. Like sure with your first chord that is a fine voicing for cmin11 but the playe might play it C-F-Bb Eb- with maybe a G up top or continue the fourths to get Ab or maybe play A or even plays a D right next to the Eb. It depends on the situation, but it's really open. If you're looking at it in the other inversions though F and Bb are just sus chords and why not add more color by just playing an EbMaj7 chord over the top of F. Or you could make it a susb9. They are all just dominant chords with more extenisions added.
This is basically what opened it up for me. Look at a C major chord and keep going up in thirds alternatin major to minor triads. Like C-E-G-B-D-F#-A-C. Most piano players see that as the basic available pool of notes for a voicing and putting the notes in order you just get C lydian. That's mode most players tend to play on over major chords anyway. However that's not the end to the notes you can play on that chord. Basically it turns out that the chord just sounds more intense or thick the more extensions you add so if you start to think about it as any note belongs in that chord it's just more intense. Good luck voicing them, but they all work.
It's really stuff the impressionists and expressionists were on to. Just adding upper structures to chords. Like shapes within shapes. Dominate chords are still the most open to me, but if you consider all the stuff you can play that works as a dominate then it starts to make sense what all the jazz guys are playing off of and what's going on. Like instead of C7 you could play BbMaj7/C or how about just C7sus4 or maybe a phrygian chord like Csusb9 or you can start with the extensions. Then you can start doing it with the tri-tone subs. Then when you really get into it opens up polytonalities to your playing.
Like they said though it's about the ear and Bill Evans was the master of this shit. Herbie Hancock is no slouch though. There a good place to start and Bill didn't ever do anything weird. He was always either just playing the most beautiful harmonic shit ever. Everything he played had meaning or he didn't play it by his own admission. Anyway These topics are the best and hopefully that made some sense. |
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AGirlNamedPsycho
Try A Little Harder
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 4:16:39 PM
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| That's why I'm asking all these questions. I'm not this much of a math player so for me to just sit and do this out of the blue was weird. It's like, even though I'm not a bebop player I still want to understand their ideas. I've been slowly learning Donna Lee for the past few months (I keep losing the transcription heh) and without a map to guide me a lot of the things Parker is doing weird me out. I'm starting to think i was a better player before I worried about this crap. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 5:42:09 PM
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Nah, theory and analyzing solos only increases your vocabulary. Getting some bop vocabulary is great, but it's probably going to sound really out of place in certain contexts and with certain players. I remember when I started ripping off all these joe pass licks and kind of making them my own (too bad I let them slide away) and then I would be jammin' with friends and I would play some pretty out shit for like a marley tune and they would just look at me like I was out of my mind or like I didn't know what I was doing.
The biggest thing with bop is that they play off of extensions a lot and for me the biggest thing is that it is lydian dominant heavy. You can look at it as them playing off the tri-tone sub too, but all in all it's just pretty much think b5 (as that was the bebop sign anyway back when). Then there is a lot more chromatic movement. Keep plugging away at donna lee too. Remember this quote by Charlie Parker too where he said, "first I learn the changes then I forget them". I mean don't think that these guys where thinking about any of this stuff while they were playing. They would be lost in no time at those tempos. They just had big vocabularies and they just played what they thought of. I mean most of those recordings parker was either drunk or just shot up, or probably both and some guy just stuck a mic in front of them and they played their asses off.
What's hard for me is to relax and realize it's a life long pursuit to play well. I just want to be good now though. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 11:28:38 PM
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My jazz teacher tells me that exact same quote, zach. It's a wise quote. He played for the Commodores (navy band not disco band) for 26 years and played w/ some of the greats so he knows what he's talking about.
Another interesting quote, from a Dr. Zlotnik, "You must hear with your eyes and see with your ears." That guy is interesting he's now studying the healing effects of music, that's the level of understanding he's on. He's one of the rare guys who can say "you know, I think I can now hear and play absolutely anything I want." That's frighteningly amazing.
Baltimore / DC jazz scene!!  |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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Music Theory Weirdness
