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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
 Posted - 11/02/2004 : 2:44:09 PM
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First Wave of Exit Polls
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Kerry leading
MI 51-48
WI 52-48
PA 60-40
OH 52-48
FL 51-48
MICH 51-47
NM 50-48
MINN 58-40
WISC 52-43
NH 57-41
Bush leading
AZ 45-55
CO 48-51
LA 42-57
Tie
IOWA 49-49
source: www.exit-poll.net/pool.html |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 4:27:00 PM
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i got up at 7 today to vote...... and the place i vote at is literally across the street. its a church.
poll places are devided by school districts for some reason in wisconsin. and this church had the madison and verona school district.
i live in madison... naturaly assume that is my school district.
an hour and a half later.... i find that is not my district. and verona is.
the verona table.... had.... NO FUCKING LINE AT ALL!!!!
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Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 5:14:03 PM
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Second Wave
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FL: 52/48 - KERRY
OH: 52/47 - KERRY
MI: 51/48 - KERRY
PA: 58/42 - KERRY
IA: 50/48 - KERRY
WI: 53/47 - KERRY
MN: 57/42 - KERRY
NH: 58/41 - KERRY
ME: 55/44 - KERRY
NM: 49/49 - TIE
NV: 48/49 - BUSH
CO: 49/50 - BUSH
AR: 45/54 - BUSH
NC: 47/53 - BUSH
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Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 9:51:24 PM
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don't you think it's a sorry thing that as a country, the candidates we produce are so piss fucking poor that you no longer have the option of voting for someone you believe in? that you have to vote for a lesser of two evils? that you have sites like johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com? we don't hope for improvement anymore. we hope for last damage than previously.
what a tragic life we've built.
i don't know if you've seen alien vs. predator, but that's what this election is. whoever wins, we lose. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 10:04:52 PM
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| Dan I think everyone agrees with that. Even Brazil has a better democracy then us. They can at least elect a guy who isn't rich. A real person who actually stands up for the working class since he is in it. The US sucks these days. |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 10:36:29 PM
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That's what is so wonderful about a two party system...you often have to pick between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.
Adam |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 11:22:43 PM
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| i'm listening to the news, and they're saying "the republicans get this" and "the democrats get that" like they're a couple of fucking sports teams instead of real men and women representing an entire country of real people. how anyone can take part a system that has long forgotten them, and boast about it no less, is beyond me. |
death to false metal. |
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Erich
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1427 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 04:10:54 AM
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Thats all this election has been, two giant pep rallies leading up to one big cock fight. this is bosox/yankees, but at a level where you cant go back to daily life once the games over.
what hurts the most are seeing thoughtful, intelligent people break under the pressure of forced compramise and vote Kerry just because hes not Bush. At a time like this, not voting is just as strong a statement as voting, and when our country comes to that point its pretty sad. |
~pw'oikr
~( "> |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 04:23:06 AM
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I think it's interesting that this election has come down to which candidate takes Cedar Point.
I mean Ohio. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 06:55:04 AM
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I was looking at the rules for the electoral college. If there were no TV, radio, etc., we wouldn't find out who the president was going to be until January 6th.
Interesting. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 08:49:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tericee
I was looking at the rules for the electoral college. If there were no TV, radio, etc., we wouldn't find out who the president was going to be until January 6th.
Interesting.
The way things have gone in the last two elections, I'd be surprised if even with TV, radio, etc. we know before Januaray 6th! |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 11:37:54 AM
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| So now that Kerry conceded, does that mean it's decided? There's still three gray states... do they keep counting? |
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Robin
Yak Addict
USA
598 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:33:41 PM
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| Unfortunatly it's over, and I agree that it's awful that we can't support who we really want to because of the way things are with the two party system. I cannot believe we still have the electoral college deciding who actually wins. And what agood point made, if we didn't have the media spilling it all out we'd still be waiting on the results. I'd never not vote though,and we just have to work harder for change. I'm most saddened for what this means for our environment...four more years..Horrors. Peace, Robin |
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 12:49:41 PM
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I think this MEST t-shirt sums it up....
I also saw a great "FUCKBUSH04" t-shirt with this great slogan on the back....
Stop looking for
Bio-logical Weapons and
Buy-A-Logical President |
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy         
"THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS A CRUEL AND SHALLOW MONEY TRENCH-- A LONG PLASTIC HALLWAY WHERE THIEVES AND PIMPS RUN FREE AND GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS. THERE'S ALSO A NEGATIVE SIDE..." -Hunter S. Thompson |
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 1:05:05 PM
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I think it was rigged from the beginning(at least thats the way it appears now). We all know I have a propensity for conspiracies, so here goes. First we have 2 candidates, who seem quite different during the primaries. Kerry gets the nomination and slowly he becomes BUSH jr. They appear to battle it out to election day and then as it squeezes to a close Bush jr CONCEDES before it's actually over. Does this strike anyone else as ODD? You would think if you had put so much into something you would actually wait and see the outcome. Unless of course you really didn't care and your ultimate goal was to get Bush back in office by hook or crook. Of course thats just my opinion, I COULD BE WRONG!!!
(maybe not)
conversation between DEVILbush & QUITTERkerry:
Look Kerry, I got this great idea!
You run against me
We must make it look good
then at the last minute
whatever happens
you CONCEDE!!
You will be well compensated for your participation.
Maybe some controlling interest in Haliburton
I hear they are going to make a fortune with this whole IRAQ thing I started hehe
Or I could just fork over a couple hundred mil
You know I am good for it, I have RICH friends in foreign places. I look out for them and I will look out for you as well. |
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy
"THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS A CRUEL AND SHALLOW MONEY TRENCH-- A LONG PLASTIC HALLWAY WHERE THIEVES AND PIMPS RUN FREE AND GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS. THERE'S ALSO A NEGATIVE SIDE..." -Hunter S. Thompson |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 1:26:19 PM
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the Empire Strikes Back seems like an appropriate theme for the new reign of bush. fuck you hamilton. fuck you adams. as was said before, albeit somewhat differently, greedy ignorant morons will elect a greedy ignorant leader. the reference to southparks giant douche and a turd sandwich is exactly what bush wanted and needed to level the playing field and bring it all down to terrorism and "safety". 9/11 is the best thing that ever happened to bush. before that he was a lame duck, and by his own admittance, now has two more years at most before becoming a lame duck again, as the republican majority will divide itself to look for the next presidential candidate.
my siblings and i made a pact that if bush won we would leave the country. at first i considered moving to ye olde england to become a chimney sweep, but after considering that blaires mouth is placed securely around bush's dick, i'm now considering new zealand, where i will be a call away from frodo, gandalf, and the rest of the gang.
for you "patriots" that would suggest moving to france, i would say it's a possibility. they were among the few who stood up to bush, even if it was in the name of money, and if you don't believe that iraq was a threat, for the same reason why the us invaded iraq.
the only truely good thing to come out of this election was the way kerry accepted defeat and stood behind the political system itself. he could've taken the election to the courts for any number of trivial reasons, and ousted bush when bush was clearly ahead as bush ousted gore when gore was clearly ahead, but he didn't. however, i digress.
i will end this with two cliches, as that seems most fitting. america has dug its own grave, be it the economy or their children in iraq, and america deserves bush. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 1:45:50 PM
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Unbelievable.
The mood here in San Francisco is terrible today. We are going to have another four years of this shit, and it can only get worse.
Bush no longer has to worry about being re-elected, and has a strong republican senate and congress to pass whatever he pleases.
It amazes me that over 50% of America fell for his lies. They voted for Bush out of the fear he created, and now they get to deal with four more years of fear.
That and the fact that the 11 states that had bills to ban gay marriage got approved make me for the first time in my life embarassed to be an American.
53% of America is happy right now, the rest of the US and the world has a frown.
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Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 1:52:28 PM
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quote:
It amazes me that over 50% of America fell for his lies.
And the other %age might as well have not bothered to vote since QUITTERkerry threw in the towel. We could have had all of those votes matter if we voted for someone who wouldn't let us down in the end. POLITICIANS UGGGHHH!!! 2 party system my ass! |
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy
"THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS A CRUEL AND SHALLOW MONEY TRENCH-- A LONG PLASTIC HALLWAY WHERE THIEVES AND PIMPS RUN FREE AND GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS. THERE'S ALSO A NEGATIVE SIDE..." -Hunter S. Thompson |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 2:08:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fluffy
quote:
It amazes me that over 50% of America fell for his lies.
And the other %age might as well have not bothered to vote since QUITTERkerry threw in the towel. We could have had all of those votes matter if we voted for someone who wouldn't let us down in the end. POLITICIANS UGGGHHH!!! 2 party system my ass!
Agreed. Some people are praising Kerry for not trying to drag it out, others are outraged.
Even though Kerry has conceded, Bush is not the winner until the electoral college meets to casts their votes on Dec 13th. I suppose something could happen between now and then.
Fluffy, since you're into conspiracy theories, do you find it odd that Ohio used the Diebold machines that produce no paper trails and have been banned in California for their security flaws? Diebold's CEO also stated that he's "Committed
To Helping Ohio Deliver Its Electoral Votes To The President Next Year" |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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Evergreen
Yak Addict
960 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 3:27:58 PM
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So much for a young woman's hope...
I am sorry that in my country, people care more for an unborn child than for an 8-year-old who doesn't have health insurance. We care more about the health and rights of the unborn than we do about the health and rights of our children out of the womb.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about policing the world than keeping enough police on our streets at home.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about protecting their own wealth than loving their neighbor. People care more about being able to shop for Rolled Back prices than they do about keeping good jobs in their own communities.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about preventing gay marriage than they care about making sure people have tools that help their marriages survive: financial helps such as daycare, tuition assistance, and yes, even welfare - these things take the stress of money away to a degree and most likely help some families stay together.
I am sorry that in my country, people will let gross injustices stand: tax breaks for the extremely wealthy, no-bid contracts for companies in bed with the government, and even the reconstruction of another nation when our schools and inner cities are falling apart.
I am sorry that in my country, people are so terrified of change that they will do anything to keep things as they are. People are so terrified of the "what if" that they resist any forward motion. People are so terrified of terrorists - people in the midwest which, I'm sorry, the terrorists could care less about - that they will keep in power, and even bring more power to, a government that is sucking them dry.
I am sorry that in my country, people will stick with the party that promises nothing new. People are so afraid of things getting worse (what if gay people got married?! what if we're attacked again?!) that they won't even think about what could be done to improve the status quo. Because the whole country is going to hell in a handbasket, so we better just vote for the guy who won't try anything progressive.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about being protected than about being lied to.
I am so disappointed. I am disappointed in my country.
This is truly a sad day for America. But at least we know things won't get any worse.
Right?
Cheryl Rose
Physician Executive Assistant
Vermont Children's Hospital
Dept. of Pediatrics, UVM
Oh things are going to get alot worse. 09/11/01, thousands of dead soldiers, and a bunch of hungrey kids are just the tip of the iceberg. Just got the above in my email. Sums up how I'm feeling except in a bit nicer tone. We are fucking doomed. kerry SUCKS for giving up. And half of america SUCKS for sticking their heads in the sand and looking away while bush continues to engage in the most horrific criminal activities in our history. I'm ashamed and mortified to be an american. Definitely have a new attitude on raging, partying, and seeking immediate gratification on several levels cause this ship is going down soon. Do what you like! Orgasms and altered states for all!
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 4:13:48 PM
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Honestly speaking, the democratic party looks pretty bad. First there's a mediocre incumbent. Second, they spent more money than ever before. Third they did a million and one things. Fourth they had celebrities singing and speaking and waving by the truck load.
And they still couldn't pull it off. Perhaps it wasn't meant to be. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Saint Jude
Alien Abductee
USA
2144 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 4:58:30 PM
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I think now is a point in time when both parties should look at themselves, and our nation, and ask what the fuck happened.
now that bush doesnt have to worry about getting re-elected... maybe he can admit fault and fix the war situation..... (i doubt it though).
maybe now democrats will learn from their mistakes. maybe they will learn how to work with bush in the next 4 years.
or maybe..... nothing will happen. just the same shit for 4 more years.
yes... that sound about right.... more shit. |
Remember, turn off your tv. Read. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 5:44:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen
So much for a young woman's hope...
I am sorry that in my country, people care more for an unborn child than for an 8-year-old who doesn't have health insurance. We care more about the health and rights of the unborn than we do about the health and rights of our children out of the womb.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about policing the world than keeping enough police on our streets at home.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about protecting their own wealth than loving their neighbor. People care more about being able to shop for Rolled Back prices than they do about keeping good jobs in their own communities.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about preventing gay marriage than they care about making sure people have tools that help their marriages survive: financial helps such as daycare, tuition assistance, and yes, even welfare - these things take the stress of money away to a degree and most likely help some families stay together.
I am sorry that in my country, people will let gross injustices stand: tax breaks for the extremely wealthy, no-bid contracts for companies in bed with the government, and even the reconstruction of another nation when our schools and inner cities are falling apart.
I am sorry that in my country, people are so terrified of change that they will do anything to keep things as they are. People are so terrified of the "what if" that they resist any forward motion. People are so terrified of terrorists - people in the midwest which, I'm sorry, the terrorists could care less about - that they will keep in power, and even bring more power to, a government that is sucking them dry.
I am sorry that in my country, people will stick with the party that promises nothing new. People are so afraid of things getting worse (what if gay people got married?! what if we're attacked again?!) that they won't even think about what could be done to improve the status quo. Because the whole country is going to hell in a handbasket, so we better just vote for the guy who won't try anything progressive.
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about being protected than about being lied to.
I am so disappointed. I am disappointed in my country.
This is truly a sad day for America. But at least we know things won't get any worse.
Right?
Cheryl Rose
Physician Executive Assistant
Vermont Children's Hospital
Dept. of Pediatrics, UVM
Oh things are going to get alot worse. 09/11/01, thousands of dead soldiers, and a bunch of hungrey kids are just the tip of the iceberg. Just got the above in my email. Sums up how I'm feeling except in a bit nicer tone. We are fucking doomed. kerry SUCKS for giving up. And half of america SUCKS for sticking their heads in the sand and looking away while bush continues to engage in the most horrific criminal activities in our history. I'm ashamed and mortified to be an american. Definitely have a new attitude on raging, partying, and seeking immediate gratification on several levels cause this ship is going down soon. Do what you like! Orgasms and altered states for all!
Well put. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 5:48:07 PM
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what the fuck is all this "this is only the beginning, the world is blow up into shards because bush is president, there won't be anymore air to breathe, whatever." god. i've heard it a million times already. give it a fucking rest. we're not all going to die. we're not doomed to anything except 4 shitty more years of lies and bad leadership. yeah, things aren't going to get better. yeah, they'll probably get a little worse. but your doomsday proclaimations are absurd and irritating. you're holding on them as tight as you can, but you have a white-knuckle grip on nothing at all. let go of your apocolypse. let. go. you're acting like a rift is going to open in the ground at your feet and demons are going to fly out and turn everything you know into fire. it won't happen. the demons will stay where they are.
you're ashamed of being american? was being american a choice you made? was it something you worked at? you should only be ashamed of yourself for things you've done wrong. you are you. you are not a nationality. you are not a group of people.
kerry sucked long before he quit. kerry has always sucked. it's only now that he let down his followers that you see it. when it's too late. |
death to false metal. |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 5:52:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
what the fuck is all this "this is only the beginning, the world is blow up into shards because bush is president, there won't be anymore air to breathe, whatever." god. i've heard it a million times already. give it a fucking rest. we're not all going to die. we're not doomed to anything except 4 shitty more years of lies and bad leadership. yeah, things aren't going to get better. yeah, they'll probably get a little worse. but your doomsday proclaimations are absurd and irritating. you're holding on them as tight as you can, but you have a white-knuckle grip on nothing at all. let go of your apocolypse. let. go. you're acting like a rift is going to open in the ground at your feet and demons are going to fly out and turn everything you know into fire. it won't happen. the demons will stay where they are.
you're ashamed of being american? was being american a choice you made? was it something you worked at? you should only be ashamed of yourself for things you've done wrong. you are you. you are not a nationality. you are not a group of people.
kerry sucked long before he quit. kerry has always sucked. it's only now that he let down his followers that you see it. when it's too late.
No, I'm not ashamed of being an American, I said I'm embarrassed. It is not something I chose to be, it was luck. Is it something I worked at? I worked towards being a better one. You're right in saying I should only be ashamed of things I did, but I am part of this nation and I am embarrassed at it's stupidity and intolerance. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 5:58:51 PM
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| that was actually directed at evergreen. but, yeah, that makes a little more sense, i guess. i still don't really understand the sentiment. is it the association with the term "american?" because the term "american" the way we use it (which is the wrong way,) means your a native of the united states. nothing more. and really, there's nothing to be ashamed about being born of american parents. the people you're embarassed by are total strangers who share only the most basic thing with you: born in the same country. |
death to false metal. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 6:33:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen
I am sorry that in my country, people care more for an unborn child than for an 8-year-old who doesn't have health insurance. We care more about the health and rights of the unborn than we do about the health and rights of our children out of the womb.
Those "people" being the parents of the 8 year old child?
quote:
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about policing the world than keeping enough police on our streets at home.
Without that policing, we might not have streets.
quote:
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about protecting their own wealth than loving their neighbor. People care more about being able to shop for Rolled Back prices than they do about keeping good jobs in their own communities.
I'd take a walmart paycheck with benefits over a mom & pop check anyday.
quote:
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about preventing gay marriage than they care about making sure people have tools that help their marriages survive: financial helps such as daycare, tuition assistance, and yes, even welfare - these things take the stress of money away to a degree and most likely help some families stay together.
I hear having a job can be a pretty big financial help. That's all hearsay though. Money keeps people together? That sounds like an extremely ham-handed segue into something completely irrelevant. Typical rhetoric, no offense.
quote:
I am sorry that in my country, people will let gross injustices stand: tax breaks for the extremely wealthy, no-bid contracts for companies in bed with the government, and even the reconstruction of another nation when our schools and inner cities are falling apart.
Tax breaks are a gross injustice? Wish that was the biggest problem we had.
quote:
I am sorry that in my country, people are so terrified of change that they will do anything to keep things as they are. People are so terrified of the "what if" that they resist any forward motion. People are so terrified of terrorists - people in the midwest which, I'm sorry, the terrorists could care less about - that they will keep in power, and even bring more power to, a government that is sucking them dry.
Terrorists might not care about the midwest...but a "weapon of mass destruction" doesn't discriminate and go around Iowa.
quote:
I am sorry that in my country, people will stick with the party that promises nothing new. People are so afraid of things getting worse (what if gay people got married?! what if we're attacked again?!) that they won't even think about what could be done to improve the status quo. Because the whole country is going to hell in a handbasket, so we better just vote for the guy who won't try anything progressive.
What if we're attacked again?!? Sorry if I put that on my list of considerations.
quote:
I am sorry that in my country, people care more about being protected than about being lied to.
Umm...duh? Sorry for the simplistic response, but if comes down to someone blowing me up or lying to me...yeah, well. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 10:57:31 PM
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| I really fucking hate the middle part of this country and this whole fucking society! I mean our government sucks enough with democrats in but it's worse with the republicans and I'm so sick of all the propaganda that the people in this country eat for breakfast lunch and dinner. I hope this four years really does fuck up this country so people might start to wake the fuck up. I'm just in a dismal mood and this is just me feeling it, but damn I hope everyone realizes how fucking pathetic this election was. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 12:06:34 AM
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Ahem, if I may...
This is just a general statement I feel like making in response to a number of comments I've seen in several topics.
Let me explain why people voted for George W. Bush. It has to do with beliefs and values that people have. They feel that Bush is the one that will help to protect those values that they have. Whether or not you agree, certain people are against abortion, certain people are against same sex marriage. Those are the issues that they feel the strongest about and that's why the voted for Bush. Because he is the candidate who will help protect those beliefs.
And before there is a whole slew of negative comments, please refrain. These are not necessarily my beliefs. Some of these beliefs may not make any sense to you or may seem strange or outdate or perhaps even wrong. We have to respect those beliefs and their choice that they made because of it. It does not make them stupid. As much as you may not approve of their decision, remember, they probably don't approve of your decision.
And no, I did not vote for Bush. I abstained from voting for president as none of the candidates suited me. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 12:15:09 AM
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| uh, zach, i think someone stole your keyboard and is typing messages in your name. the strange thing is, i disagree with what you said less than i normally do. the idea of getting our asses kicked in such a way that we go "holy shit, we haven't done anything right in a long time" seems like the only way to go. |
death to false metal. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 01:35:03 AM
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arthen's right about what it came down to. but how it came down to bush's strongest appeals is that bush was able to bring kerry down to his level in appearance. he was able to get people to back away from saying "no more bush" to thinking "neither candidate is very appealing", and build on that, throwing away any edge kerry had over bush (such as his service in the military, bush's blunders in the iraq war(justifications or occupation)). he twisted his words out of context and labeled him a "flip-flopper", a hypocritical argument in some cases (like flat out rejecting kerry's version of the $87 billion bill), and straight out lies in others.
if that doesn't make any sense, look at the exit polling questions that asked how many people voted for kerry becuase he wasn't bush. kerry's character became the central question asked by the bush administration and drilled into people's heads, especially with the christians.
as for many people claiming it's the end of the world, don't be in such a hurry to discredit that. for the thousand + US soldiers, the collateral damage in iraq, the beheadings because of occupation, the iraqi police forces, and many, many others who have died, it is the end of the world to them, to their families and to their friends. my state, north dakota, has the highest per capita contribution to the national guards. i don't know how many people on this board live in or have lived in a small town, but when one person dies, everyone knows them. everyone. and when it is a 20 year old, that gut wrenching feeling lasts for a long time. when someone you love dies, that is the end of the world. |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 03:36:47 AM
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| My morbid curiosity is glad Bush won. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 03:41:42 AM
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Yes, that is real. |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 08:53:46 AM
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our government engineered 9/11
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 10:55:09 AM
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nice picture. that's just what we need now, isn't it. we need to alienate as many of our countrymen who don't believe as we do as possible. unity is going to do us no good. the only way to keep america strong is to make absolutely divided. SARCASM'D.
i don't think bush brought kerry down to his level at all. kerry was already there. all kerry did was fail to hide that well enough. he had it so easy. all he had to do was drive that "anyone but bush" mentality home. all he had to do was keep that strong. but he didn't. and let's suppose for a moment that kerry is any better than bush, as many claim. and let's assume bush is bad as they say, which he is and probably more. how does a man like kerry, who we've establisted as better, get dragged down by an idiot like bush?
i don't know if you realize this, but loved ones die everyday. almost everyone is beloved by someone else. under your logic, the world ends every day and has been long before bush. i have lost loved ones. everyone here i think has. but we're still here. we're still doing as best we can. it's sad, it hurts, but it's not the end of the world. if it was, then the world ended during the revolutionary war, the civil war, the world wars, and every other war that has ever taken place. i live in a small town myself, and when a friend of mine died in a car accident, the whole town did feel it. for a long time. but we moved on. hard as it was. |
death to false metal. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 3:13:24 PM
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CPPJames, you rock  |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 3:45:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i don't think bush brought kerry down to his level at all. kerry was already there. all kerry did was fail to hide that well enough. he had it so easy. all he had to do was drive that "anyone but bush" mentality home. all he had to do was keep that strong. but he didn't. and let's suppose for a moment that kerry is any better than bush, as many claim. and let's assume bush is bad as they say, which he is and probably more. how does a man like kerry, who we've establisted as better, get dragged down by an idiot like bush?
i don't know if you realize this, but loved ones die everyday. almost everyone is beloved by someone else. under your logic, the world ends every day and has been long before bush. i have lost loved ones. everyone here i think has. but we're still here. we're still doing as best we can. it's sad, it hurts, but it's not the end of the world. if it was, then the world ended during the revolutionary war, the civil war, the world wars, and every other war that has ever taken place. i live in a small town myself, and when a friend of mine died in a car accident, the whole town did feel it. for a long time. but we moved on. hard as it was.
as i have pointed out in another thread, bush had known long before kerry that he would be the presidential candidate, thus he had much, much more time to prepare. when he knew kerry was the candidate, he used his daily airtime, which spans many news networks, for campaigning opportunities, both negative and positive. everytime he could, he called kerry a radical and a flip-flopper. let's not forget that bush (c/o bloggers, with bush behind them, probably headed by carl rowe) had the swift boat vets emails and tv ads running non stop for a couple of months before kerry could even respond, as he lacked tv time and money. those unchecked accusations more than brought kerry down a notch. the called him nothing less than a liar, a back stabber, and a coward, with the word liar circled and highlighted, despite lack of evidence on both sides. kerry, not having as much funds as bush, chose to wait closer to election time to start running a series of ads. indeed, outside of campaign rallies, the first real time people got a chance to hear his platform was at the presidential debates, where he grilled bush for all to see. after that, bush still had all the free airtime he wanted in front of the ap, and many, many negative ads running at the same time, where kerry had a few, despite spending millions of his own money. how did kerry get dragged down by an idiot like bush, take a look back and tell me.
indeed. however, we are talking about many deaths that happened because of a single decision, not the irregular drunk driving accident, fire, or other disaster in which very few people died, as compared to a thousand on our side, and thousands on the other in a fucking war. iraq was a part of the 'axis of evil'. bush has driven home the point that the world has changed after 9/11, and that striking first is now a part of america's strategy, and its priority. he has made clear that he will not hesitate to strike first if he thinks it is in 'america's interest'. is it one down, two to go? or will other defenseless nations catch his eye, in his quest to 'spread freedom' to the 'haters of freedom'? the difference between bush and kerry was that kerry promised to not go to war unnecessarily. but i suppose even necessity is subjective. even the world ending is subjective, as we've established. is it radically changing our country from what once was, as the revolutionary war and the civil war did, changing the face of the earth itself, as the human race has done, or changing nations and populations across the globe into foreign lands and mindsets, as the world wars did. in most doomsday scenerios and legends, not everyone dies. the planet itself doesn't die, even if it will become a cold barren wasteland. perhaps it's the end of the world because the future is foreign to the past and the past is foreign to the future. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:26:44 PM
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look, i'm not defending bush here. he's a shit eater and he lies constantly. despite your points, which are well made, i can't imagine why you'd call something the end of the world when the world, and not even the perception of the world by humans, has been totallu irradicated. the world is still here. i guess my idea of the end of world differs greatly from yours. some people are still here. it's not the end. it just sucks. thousands died in the 9/11 attacks, and yet i have no rememberance of you calling that the end of the world.
if negative adds did kerry in, then it seems like kerry didn't say enough bad things about bush. unless you're telling me that all of accusations against kerry are 100 percent lies, then what does that say about kerry? i wouldn't put it by bush to give us pure lies, because that's what liars do. lie. kerry made huige mistakes in voting record and his campaign. why should i have any faith in him? |
death to false metal. |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:50:52 PM
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I'm definitely not a huge Bush fan, but I'm very glad Kerry is not our next president.
Kerry had quite the long face while giving his concession speech.
Adam |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 7:52:13 PM
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| his face was long anyway. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 10:30:09 PM
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| that was the joke dan. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 11:47:11 PM
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| yes, i know. |
death to false metal. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 08:47:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
CPPJames, you rock
I like to think so! |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1916 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 11:10:12 AM
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i discovered that people enjoy bad things..such as whena celebrity or even someone they knows die, people love it. obviously not everyone, but people like to talk about it like they are great or something...the same with how fucked up our country is, lets say it wasnt, lets say it was the greatest thing ever, then people would be mad that they have nothing to be mad about...
i think it comes down to amerians, myself included, are fucking retarded....you know what, make that all of the human race is fucking stupid.
hah
i mean look how many records willaim hung sold...i fucking hate middle america. |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 4:35:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rubylith
i mean look how many records willaim hung sold...i fucking hate middle america.
Actually, you hate the majority of rural America.
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Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 5:31:26 PM
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dan, i guess my take on the end of the world is when a future ceases to exist. it happens every day and every second for objects, people, thoughts, and emotions, but different impacts are felt by each occurance; most are smaller and out of the scope of most people, some larger and felt by all. the world certainly has its eye centered on the US and its war on terrorism, where it will go next, and the fallouts and consequences of its future actions. i tend to view it as the ever changing decay of who we are and where we are headed, since that is the world we know. i know that this may sound like a bunch of bullshit, but since the sun is unlikely to burn out in my lifetime (although there is always the chance of triggering another world war), its ok and accurate enough in its own sense for now.
as for 9/11 being the end of the world, it was, and has been said over and over again by many different people, including the widows, children, and family members of the victims. as has been said many times, 9/11 has changed the world for good.
i don't believe that kerry is completely innocent. however, i do believe that the bush administration is top-notch at adding a half truth together with another half truth to get a totally fucked up manipulation of the whole truth. i do realize that bush is far from the first to do this. but it works, and it works well.
even though fleabass's picture is much more accurate, it's still interesting to look at this:
http://www.selekta.com/map.jpg |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 6:18:45 PM
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what i have to say next i'll say it here, as it does not target any individual's opinions, but expresses my own:
i wanted kerry to win as much or even more than the next man. i hate bush with a passion, i believe his policies are guided by the great hand of Stupidity and Arrogance. i do resent bush for winning in his war of lies; but that is where i believe we must draw the line.
bush's policies have divided everyone greatly, and this election only widened the gap, almost literally splitting the country in two. if you are on the side of bush and you think terrorism is this counrty's greatest threat, or on the other and think that bush's policies are a one way ticket to destruction, think about this: the US has been this way before.
it was a very similar situation that sparked america's greatest and most horrific challenge, with the scars not quite healed, even now.
before you go on thinking that there could never be another civil war, think again. we are already admist a civil war of words, and deep rooted hatred has the power to make things snowball.
i am not saying that we will start killing each other, but one half of the country already resents the other, and that is far enough.
if bush has shown us one thing it is this: his presidency, however flawed, does not equal the end of our country, or our political system. we can ride this one out if united or otherwise impartial, or we can tear each other apart, leaving nothing left that would've otherwise survived the storm.
differences of ideas and beliefs in themselves didn't lead to this countries first great schism, but the enforcement of these on others and the expectancy of matching somone's ideas to your own did.
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 8:40:54 PM
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| pants happy says what i'm trying to say, without all the cussing. |
death to false metal. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 9:35:54 PM
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| That's why I'm loading up on M16s now, just in case there is a civil war. I don't think I'll fight for either side, I'll just get holed up in my house with a bunch of food and guns and ammo. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2004 : 9:52:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
That's why I'm loading up on M16s now, just in case there is a civil war. I don't think I'll fight for either side, I'll just get holed up in my house with a bunch of food and guns and ammo.
That's a good plan in case of spontaneous zombification of the populace as well. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 1:54:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
That's why I'm loading up on M16s now, just in case there is a civil war. I don't think I'll fight for either side, I'll just get holed up in my house with a bunch of food and guns and ammo.
Unless someone with a WOMD decides they don't like you. But don't go invading trying to stop them before they fire it at you, or EVERYONE will hate you.  |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 6:00:23 PM
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| Yet they didn't have any WOMD after you invade and kill 100,000 and take over their economy. So ya they'll hate you. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 7:10:31 PM
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| Where do you think they went? They're sitting in the corner of my room. I use a nuke as a nightstand. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 7:29:53 PM
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light the zombie bodies on fire. that's the only way to make sure they won't come back and bite me in the leg that time when i had fucking no health or green leaf on my way to the save room with the chest.
that reminds me. designate a safe room where no zombies can come in. play sad music in there constantly. |
death to false metal. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 8:24:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
pants happy says what i'm trying to say, without all the cussing.
yeah, but you didn't have to say it...
seriously though, i agree with you. it's one of those situations where even if you are right, and you know you're right, and everyone else knows you're right, it's best to say your sorry to your bitch cousin and go play your video games, 'cause talkin back to your aunt could make things get ugly. i mean, resent the leader and lobby your congressmen, but don't piss on the electric fence. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 8:56:40 PM
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You mean whiz.
Unless of course you were inadvertently referring to Ren and Stimpy. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 10:35:36 PM
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and, as much of a paradox as this may seem, never piss off an electric fence, either. i just blew my mind.
and speaking of videogames, i'm playing lotr: third age right now. it's taking forever, because i have to stop every 20 minutes to have a fucking orgasm from it. |
death to false metal. |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 11:22:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
Yet they didn't have any WOMD after you invade and kill 100,000 and take over their economy. So ya they'll hate you.
Only the capacity to create them, and numerous terrorist connections, and a history of deceit. |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Muskrat
Chatterbox
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2004 : 11:25:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
Where do you think they went? They're sitting in the corner of my room. I use a nuke as a nightstand.
HA! I just made a phone call to the White House and they're on there way to invade Arthen's house and end his evil regime! |
"You know, if you live long enough, eventually you're gonna die." -Words of wisdom from my dad |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 12:56:20 AM
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| If I don't get more tax cuts on the taxes I don't pay I'm gonna set this sucker off! |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 12:58:34 AM
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| i want one. the next harry potter convention is almost here, and i do so hate to be unprepared. |
death to false metal. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 02:03:19 AM
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| I'd give you one for that. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 2:50:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Muskrat
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
Yet they didn't have any WOMD after you invade and kill 100,000 and take over their economy. So ya they'll hate you.
Only the capacity to create them, and numerous terrorist connections, and a history of deceit.
And our country differs how? Hmm where were most of the terrorists on 9-11 from? Saudi Arabia. Didn't money from the saudi royal family go to fund the attacks on 9-11? Who has ties with the saudi family? Dubya? What country supported Iraq through the worst crimes Saddam commited? The US. What year is considered the height of terrorism? 1984. The top three terrorist crimes that year were directly tied to the CIA. Hmm not looking so good. Your capacity to create them doesn't exactly hold up either. Oh and history of deciet is like the title for american history yet you still think it's cool to invade and kill 100,000 people and buy the line of why we went in? Hmm how many were killed in the 9-11 attacks? Yes it makes perfect sense to stop terrorism to stop inocent people from being killed so we will invade and kill more. Whose the bigger terrorist the one who kills more or the one that's on the other side of the fence? |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 4:24:43 PM
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| Didn't you pay attention when Teri C posted information about the book written by the former head of weapons development for Saddam? He talked about how he had the components for a nuclea bomb burried in his garden. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 4:48:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
Didn't you pay attention when Teri C posted information about the book written by the former head of weapons development for Saddam? He talked about how he had the components for a nuclea bomb burried in his garden.
Yes, right next to the remains of Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and other imaginary things invented to entice people to consume. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 5:19:20 PM
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Ya I also remember something in the description as well about the weapons program being dead or something like that. I still haven't had time to get the book though, but I will. You know if they had the elements to make a nuke why didn't they? Also pre-emptively striking other countries is not the way to go about trying to get people to comply with non-proliferation treaties. I think it says to anyone who doesn't have nukes yet that they better damn well get them because it's the only way to protect yourself. Besides when this country won't comply with the treaties how can we expect others to?
The problem is that if we had evidence that was credible to show that Iraq was building a nuke or WMD's we could have presented it which we never did and got the rest of the world behind us, but we couldn't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2004 : 8:20:38 PM
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| i agree that this administration failed to present solid enough reason to invade iraq. and i would have taken any number of reasons, just so long as they were apparently real. |
death to false metal. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 11:41:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
I still haven't had time to get the book though, but I will.
PJK bought the book, but I haven't heard a review from her yet. Maybe she'll post it on this thread when she's done. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 11:54:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i agree that this administration failed to present solid enough reason to invade iraq. and i would have taken any number of reasons, just so long as they were apparently real.
I tend to disagree, although I don't fully support the war in Iraq. The fact of the matter is, it wasn't our responsibility to prove that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. It was his responsibility to prove that he didn't. When he refused to comply with weapons inspectors, he brought this upon himself and his country.
People always say "well the weapons inspectors didn't find any weapons of mass destruction!!!". Do you honestly think that the weapons inspectors' job is to walk around and say "Hey, think there are any weapons of mass destruction over there?". "Hmm, might be some weapons of mass destruction underneath that thing!". Hell no. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 4:23:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i agree that this administration failed to present solid enough reason to invade iraq. and i would have taken any number of reasons, just so long as they were apparently real.
I tend to disagree, although I don't fully support the war in Iraq. The fact of the matter is, it wasn't our responsibility to prove that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. It was his responsibility to prove that he didn't. When he refused to comply with weapons inspectors, he brought this upon himself and his country.
People always say "well the weapons inspectors didn't find any weapons of mass destruction!!!". Do you honestly think that the weapons inspectors' job is to walk around and say "Hey, think there are any weapons of mass destruction over there?". "Hmm, might be some weapons of mass destruction underneath that thing!". Hell no.
I disagree, I think we've been building WMDs/Bio-agents for long enough now that we know where to look for them in a second-world country. On top of that we have satelite surveillance to look for supply convoys, etc or sudden deployments in areas where the inspectors are inspecting. My memory may be a little foggy, but I believe Saddam was fully willing to comply with inspectors before the invasion, and if the US administration would have kept the pressure steady instead of creating a ridiculous timetable which takes all the control out of our hands, the inspection could have gone on and alot more soldiers would be alive today. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 5:53:45 PM
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My father and I were talking today about Iraq. One might call him a callous old man. I like to think of him as sarcastic and funny, much like myself.
Anyways, we were discussing the situation, and he told me that at first he was against it, but as of late, he is for it. I'm sure you assume he has been tricked or manipulated, but here's the reason:
All the terrorists in the muslim world, are going where? To Iraq. It is essentially a black hole that is sucking terrorists to it everyday. And it is keeping them over there.
And, I'm not sure if anyone else was aware of the Newsweek exclusive, but they had reporters following both Bush and Kerry campaigns, on the promise that they wouldn't publish any stories until after the election. Well, it's out. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6407226/site/newsweek/
I especially enjoyed reading the part where Kerry started complaining about how he has to get his own breakfast, his own brush, and his own phone charger. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 6:10:47 PM
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| i disagree with james. it was up to saddam to prove he didn't, but it was up to the us government to prove to it's people that there were actually wdms in there because, you know, it's what they told us. once you say "he has weapons of mass destruction." you have to prove it to us. it's the job of the us government, as elected representives, to justify these actions to the public. at the very least, if they don't feel like giving us the truth, they have to manipulate us well enough so that we're all more or less behind them. when there's dissention like this, they've pretty much failed at their job. to tell me "saddam hussein has wmds" and then go in there and not find one fucking thing, is to not only lie, but to fail at lying properly. he could have said "saddam hussein is a total prick and let's go get him" and i would have been fine with it. but they're back and forth with iraqi freedom, wmds, and terrorism, and when they do that, i get very suspicious. pick a thing, go with it, and then fake the evidence if you have to. |
death to false metal. |
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 7:59:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
All the terrorists in the muslim world, are going where? To Iraq. It is essentially a black hole that is sucking terrorists to it everyday. And it is keeping them over there.
I thought of this the other day. Morbidly fascinating. The ends in no way justifies the means though for me. |
Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 11:24:51 PM
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| What's great too is that with the polls conducted shortly before the build up to the war, the people of the US would support an invasion if they thought Saddam was building WMD's and almost universally they supported the war if he was trying to build a nuke. However it was a very small majority not even 20% I believe that would support going in just to take out Saddam. However now that the media has done it's job you have so many people behind the war regardless of the fact that there was no WMD's threat just so they could remove Saddam. Funny how peoples opinions change after a propaganda campaign. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 11:26:36 PM
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| that's the point of a propaganda campaign. frankly i'd be more pissed if they tried to do a propaganda campaign and failed to get results. because now they're liars AND failures. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 11:40:02 PM
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| They already are failures at being good at governing people, but I think of it the other way in that it would be good if propaganda failed because that would mean a rise in intellegence in this country. I wouldn't mind it at all if propaganda didn't work on people. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 06:07:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
it was up to the us government to prove to it's people that there were actually wmds in there because, you know, it's what they told us. once you say "he has weapons of mass destruction." you have to prove it to us. it's the job of the us government, as elected representives, to justify these actions to the public.
1) Definition of WMD: The most widely used definition of "weapons of mass destruction" in official U.S. documents is "nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons." (http://www.nti.org/f_wmd411/f1a1.html)
2) Iraq's Weapons of mass destruction
In August 1991, UN arms inspectors – UNSCOM – compiled a list of companies which had supplied technology to the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons program. The list was not made public, but governments can obtain information on the involvement of companies from their own country upon special request to the UN.
German companies have been subjected to criminal investigations on suspicion of violation of the arms embargo against Iraq. The UK and the USA have been accused of supporting the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons program through the sale of chemicals and technology.
"British firms sold thousands of kilos of the basic ingredients of nerve and mustard gas to Iraq and Iran last year, the Department of Trade confirmed yesterday... the Department’s figures show that 2,000 kilograms of methyl phosphonyl difluoride has been exported to Iraq. This is the basic ingredient of the nerve gas Sarin... British firms also sold 38,000 kilograms of dimethyl methylphosphonate and other Sarin ingredients to Iraq."
Andrew Beitch, The Guardian, 6 April 1984
Four years after this article was published, in March 1988, an estimated 5,000 people were deliberately killed and thousands wounded as a result of chemical weapon attacks by Iraqi forces on the town of Halabja in Northern Iraq. Most of the victims were civilians, many of them children and women.
Source: http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ttt4-article_7-eng
3) IRAQ WMD Timeline
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1980, September 22. The armed forces of Iraq launch an invasion against Iran. The Iraqi army, trained and influenced by Soviet advisers, has organic chemical warfare units and possesses a wide variety of delivery systems. When neither side achieves dominance, the war quickly stalemates. To stop the human-wave attacks by the Iranians, Iraq employs home-produced chemical agents as a defensive measure against the ill-prepared Iranians.
(The first reported use of chemical weapons is in November 1980. For the next several years, reports circulate of additional chemical attacks.)
1980-88. Chemical weapons are used extensively during Iran-Iraq war. Most are used by Iraq. Saddam is also believed to have used them against his own people, primarily Kurdish and Shiia minorities. First use during the war is by Iraq. By 1985 Iraq is producing 1,000 tons of various chemical weapons agents annually. During the war, Saddam appoints his cousin, Ali Hasan al-Majid, as his deputy in the north.
1987-88. al-Majid led the "Anfal" campaign of attacks on Kurdish villages. All villages within 20 kilometers of the Iranian border are ruthlessly destroyed, and many are attacked with chemical weapons. Amnesty International estimates that more than 100,000 Kurds were killed or “disappeared” during this period.
Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/848341/posts |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 1:44:55 PM
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| I really would like to know for sure what the weapons program was before the invasion and if they had any WMD's. I really don't think they did considering the lack of proof before and after the war, but if they did I would like to know where they went and how many they had. Also I would like to see some evidence that just prior to the war Iraq was trying to build a nuke. Until then anyone who still holds the line that we had to go into Iraq fro WMD's is just adding bullshit to the manure pit. The only solid info I've ever got on this is the same type of stuff Teri posted. I know that Iraq had a weapons program but I've seen little info presented to prove that they had a functioning weapons program after 2000. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 2:52:40 PM
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| tericee also sites incidents that are about 20 years old from a decidedly right slanted website. i know freerepublic.com and many right wing racists and all around jerks who frequent the side. and i know what the saddam hussein did in the 80s. what about usage of wmds after 1989? i think the newer the incidents are, the more relevent they are. not saying that what you posted wasn't, though. certainly the information should be considered in proper scope, and not entirely thrown aside. |
death to false metal. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 4:15:19 PM
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| i disagree with you cpp james, simply because the rules of logic themselves tell us that proving a negative is almost impossible, whereas proving a positive takes just once (not to over generalize, there are exceptions). we can never prove that god doesn't exist, but him showing up sure would prove that he does. not to sound like a slippery slope, but the same goes with the existence of aliens, the possession of WMD, or jessica simpson's virginity. hell of a way to trap a country is to catch them in a never ending loop. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 07:20:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
tericee also sites incidents that are about 20 years old from a decidedly right slanted website.
Please note that I posted from non-slanted websites too. I don't consider Amnesty International to be slanted toward the right AT ALL. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 4:47:05 PM
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| fair enough. |
death to false metal. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 4:59:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pants_happy
i disagree with you cpp james, simply because the rules of logic themselves tell us that proving a negative is almost impossible, whereas proving a positive takes just once (not to over generalize, there are exceptions). we can never prove that god doesn't exist, but him showing up sure would prove that he does. not to sound like a slippery slope, but the same goes with the existence of aliens, the possession of WMD, or jessica simpson's virginity. hell of a way to trap a country is to catch them in a never ending loop.
So now we're turning the potential end of mankind into a Modus Ponens/Modus Tolens argument? Do you consider that some kind of intellectual argument? And the argument is flawed anyway. If I show you an empty box, have I not proven that the box is empty? Your assumption is argued based on things we cannot prove because we have no method of doing so. Things that, for all intents and purposes, are intangible. If I kill Saddam Hussein, he's dead. And no, I'm not getting into some Schrodinger's cat argument.
The real point is, if Saddam Hussein had let the weapons inspectors in and shown sufficient evidence that he had destroyed the weapons he did have, the war doesn't happen. If Saddam Hussein doesn't do anything for George Bush to "justify" invading that country, the war doesn't happen. Saddam Hussein had every opportunity to avert this war, regardless of the underlying reason for it. He didn't. Yet you really don't hear anything about Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein anymore, it's about what an evil dictator George Bush is. How soon we forget. When did we become the enemy? |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 7:42:11 PM
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| we don't talk about osama bin laden because not finding him is a huge failure, and we don't talk about those. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2004 : 8:26:50 PM
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James you're missing the point because it was up to us to prove that Iraq had the WMD's so the UN countries could authorize a pre-emptive attack. The US never did that. Why would anyone invade a country for WMD's when you can't prove that they have them. Also Iraq offered full co-operation to the UN only the US decided that the hour for diplomacy was over and it's time to go kill a hundred thousand people and claim we are liberating a country as we go in and refuse elections while completely taking over their economy and making it heaven on earth for private investers. I mean everyone on earth agrees that Saddam is a bad person and Osama is not a cool guy. However over half of this country thinks Bush has good moral values. Why would I waste my breath saying how bad Saddam is especially when there is almost nothing you or I can do abbout it. However if I speak out to people in america we might be able to change our government. I blame dubya for 100,000 dead people. The same way that everyone blames the houlacast on hitler anyway since he was the one leading at the time. Also what has been done since the invasion economically and politically is disgraceful at the least.
It's a sad day when all any country has to do to invade is say they have WMD's and they are hiding them from us so we can't find them, but we have to invade this country that never attacked us, for our own security. Like Iraq posed some kind of immenent threat to us. I mean the countries neighbors that Iraq has actually attacked and invaded weren't scared or worried that Saddam was getting WMD's which would be the people that should since they would be within his range. That really says something.
Also how would Iraq ever be able to prove that they had no WMD's? The inspectors looked around for them and came up empty and then you have some tape of some guy saying hide them. Then the head weapons inspector resigned because he was so fed up with the proccess and then began to speak out against the claims of WMD's. Seriously though no matter where we looked we could have come up empty and then just said they are hiding them. We also can moniter them with sattelite so closely they couldn't get away with moving things around because we would be watching. This is the reason why the burdon rests upon the state in a criminal charge. It should be the same with charging a country of a national crime. We should have been able to prove they had WMD"s. They didn't. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2004 : 3:44:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
So now we're turning the potential end of mankind into a Modus Ponens/Modus Tolens argument? Do you consider that some kind of intellectual argument? And the argument is flawed anyway. If I show you an empty box, have I not proven that the box is empty? Your assumption is argued based on things we cannot prove because we have no method of doing so. Things that, for all intents and purposes, are intangible. If I kill Saddam Hussein, he's dead. And no, I'm not getting into some Schrodinger's cat argument.
The real point is, if Saddam Hussein had let the weapons inspectors in and shown sufficient evidence that he had destroyed the weapons he did have, the war doesn't happen. If Saddam Hussein doesn't do anything for George Bush to "justify" invading that country, the war doesn't happen. Saddam Hussein had every opportunity to avert this war, regardless of the underlying reason for it. He didn't. Yet you really don't hear anything about Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein anymore, it's about what an evil dictator George Bush is. How soon we forget. When did we become the enemy?
the potential end of mankind? please, an appeal to fear will get you nowhere. that point is moot anyway, since saddam didn't have the reach or the power to threaten the US in the first place, and of coarse learning that he didn't have WMD doesn't help the case either. you could, however, argue your case for the end of the world using the nuclear proliferation in north korea, iran, and pakistan and india (where every simulation of war become nuclear at some point), the smuggling of nuclear weapons from russia, terrorists attacks from saudi arabia, or fallout from bush invading sovereign countries, all of which are far more serious threats, and all of which bush has all but ignored. my main point was that bush proved that the 'box' had the ~potential~ to never be empty, because he accused iraq of constantly moving weapons around. since the inspectors couldn't be in every site at the same time, and since iraq was allegedly moving their weapons around, it follows that the inspectors couldn't possibly know if other sites, previously visited or not, were empty.
speaking of weapons inspectors, el baradi, head of the united nations international atomic energy agency, was satisfied with how inspections were going. saddam did let the inspectors in and did try to show that they didn't possess any WMD, because they didn't possess any, and because they did not want to get attacked. how soon we forget about richard clark and paul o'neill, who voiced how bush wanted to "find a way" to go into iraq, and how bush had neglected the true terrorists. the US chose to ignore the opinions of the weapons inpectors, its advisors, the UN, half the country, and the world. they chose to 'go it alone'. thier justification for war was nonexistent. was the war really necessary?
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Fleabass76
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2004 : 5:29:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pants_happy
'go it alone'.
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Robots are the enemy? Hmm... |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 2:29:04 PM
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*course...spell check is your friend.
Tell me exactly what Saddam Hussein lacked in terms of setting off a "dirty" bomb or a nuclear warhead within the United States. Money? Doubtful, nuclear warheads can be picked up for under $100,000,000. Means? Prior to 9/11, how difficult would it have been to detonate a weapon of mass destruction in New York City? Not very. Motive? Goes without saying.
To say that Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction is an assumption. Just as we haven't proven that he did, it hasn't been proven that he didn't. To say that he cooperated with the weapons inspectors is complete BS...regardless of the liberal spin the media puts on everything.
Being a soft liberal, how would you have handled Iraq, assuming there were no terrorist actions at all. Would you allow him to continue to slaughter thousands of his own civilians? Funny how the evidence of torture and the bodies they've found never seems to be mentioned. Yes, plenty of people died...on both sides. Life sucks.
I don't like Bush...never been a big fan. I'm not gung-ho for the war, but I'm not entirely opposed to it. Could have been handled better...but are liberals convinced that Bush is the spawn of Satan? Do they honestly think that he doesn't care about the loss of life? I friggin' hated Clinton, but I'm not going to say that he had complete disregard for human life. I don't believe that President Bush is an evil man. May not be the brightest guy in the world, but evil is a ridiculous stretch. You'd think Charles Manson was in office.
No one can anticipate the outcome of a war (i.e. Vietnam or this current action). To stand by and do nothing would have been far worse. For it to go the way that it has is obviously tragic...but that doesn't change the fact that Saddam needed to go.
I'm just sick of the liberals supposing that they know Bush's motivations for everything when they don't know a damn thing about his personal motivation, and neither do I. If Bush did this for personal reasons, or oil in Iraq or whatever, explain to me how Bush has benefitted.
Everyone says this war was about oil. Has the price of oil gone down? Hmm...'bout $2.30 a gallon here. Has he made great strides toward popular support? Nope, it actually hurt him more than it helped him. Did he do it because it's "fun" to send troops into battle? Some people would have you think so. Is it to open an "economic door" to the middle east? I don't see McDonald's in Iraq. Not too many Starbucks. The only mass-market product we receive from Iraq is oil, and the amount of oil we've received hasn't increased.
I haven't heard a single, non-laughable reason why Bush would commit to this war, other than to be proactive against terrorism and tyranny worldwide. Do I think he made mistakes along the way? Sure. Were those mistakes costly? Absolutely. Will we ultimately reach the "greater good". Yes. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 5:26:04 PM
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what absolutely kills me is that conservatives are forever whining about "the liberal media" and liberals equally whine about just the opposite. come on now. how can this be? two people hear the same thing. once calls it liberal trash. the other calls it conservative lies. the differences bewteen the two viewpoints are about as cut and dry as it gets, so how can two people collectively hear both things in one story, article, whatever? i'd be willing to bet that it's neither, and that it isn't liberal or conservative enough to satisfy anyone's deep seated need to hear their opinions validated on the tv.
i don't like most news. i think a lot of it, tv news in particular, is unprofessional, sloppy, and riddled with meaningless drivel about nothing important. why concern yourself when slant at all when it's not even done properly to begin with. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 10:06:18 PM
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James I really don't know where to start. Seeing as I've told you this before I'll start with your comment about the war not being for oil because prices of gas haven't gone down. Do I really need to explain how the two don't connect? If you can tell me why oil prices would drop if we went there only for oil I would be amazed. The oil aspect of the war is more about control in a country that has a large amount of oil reserves not neccesarily being able to produce more oil to lower gas costs which actually is more harmful to those controlling the oil.
Then if you want to talk about Saddam's crimes about humanity you need to mention exactly when all these crimes took place and I think that you'll find that the US supported Saddam through the worst of his crimes. If you want to talk about killing inocent people let's talk about the sanctions against Iraq. Let's talk about the highest infant mortality rate in the world essentially so we could get away with bartering food for oil. Then let's talk about East Timor which was invaded by Indonesia and they literally killed off a third of the population. So over the span of the invasion the US supplied M16's and other military equipment the whole time. Where was the care and concern about mass killing there and democracy? Oh well we couldn't sanction the country that is so valuable to our economic needs. So now a decade after all these mass killings Saddam was responsible for we need to do something?
How do you handle the situation in Iraq? Well first you have to look at it and say does he really have WMD"s? Well considering we haven't found any in like half a decade and we've been looking I'm just guessing that he didn't have any. Considering we to this day can't prove that he did have any directly before the war and we still haven't found any I think you have a hard time saying we had to do something based on the fact that he could possibly attack us. So could many other countries but does declaring war stabilize the world and work for keeping the non-proliferation treaty going? No it says you better dam well get some WMD's to protect yourself because if you have resources we want them. Anyone who thinks we went in to Iraq just to help Iraqi citizens really needs to examine a few key things.
First of all you need to examine the US' history because there are so many instances of us doing what's bad for a majority of people in a country because it's good for economical gain. You might want to look at the relationships between the US and the other countries in the Americas like Nicaragua, Haiti and Brazil.
The next thing is you dismissed a reason for the war being economic door to the mideast. Uhm do you know what the US has done in Iraq? Who literally owns the major companies in Iraq? You do realize that one of the first things done after the invasion is to open up Iraq's economy to foreign investment literally making it heaven on earth for investor's especially when your company gets huge US contracts that make you tons of money. Iraq's economic infastructure is almost completely controlled now by foreign investors.
So you have to ask yourself some questions like why is it that we would allow countries with these evil dictators in power not only to stay in power but to commit crimes against humanity? Why is it that after Saddam gassed all these people did we continue to supply him with weapons and fail to sanction him and only years after the fact do we stand up to it? Why would we continue a business relationship with saudi arabia when they played a huge role in funding 9-11 and had numerous connections to the people responsible for the attacks? Why didn't the Iraqi people jump for joy when they heard we were coming to liberate them? Why was did the news only loop a short clip of US equipment tearing down a Saddam statue? Why not loop the polls showing how Iraqi's felt about the war? Just to clue you in the majority of people in Iraq where very against the war taking place and still are. When did this sudden jump of compassion all the sudden grasp our government? Why would we refuse elections again and again under mass protest by the Iraqi people? Why would we have to arrest 42,000 plus people that we are liberating? Why did we kill 100,000? Why are people fighting the US? Could it be that they don't like being occupied and prefer to be in charge of their own destiny and not have a governing council appointed to rule them?
I would also like to know that if in 2000 or 2001 you were looking to get Saddam out of power because he absolutley had to go. Were you saying we had to go in to Iraq to get rid of Saddam? We needed to invade and get Saddam out. I can only guess you weren't going around telling people that it is absolutely imparitive that we remove Saddam from power. You want to talk about outcomes of wars. I knew the outcome before it started. Thousands of inocent people will die. Ya we can kill over a 100,000 people and commit acts against the will of the people of Iraq and turn around and say it was for their good. You are showing a very limited knowledge of the way the world works and US policy.
Also by your logic it seems that it's an assumption that Iraq had no WMD's. It's an even begger assumption to say they did and we went to war on that assumption. Was Saddam plotting to bomb the US? Show me he is before you invade his country. Also when you state that Iraq wouldn't comply with inspectors I would like to see one thing during the build up to the war where Saddam wouldn't comply. Show me any instance where the UN inspectors reported Saddam wouldn't comply with them.
Now onto bush being satan. Ok well let me see here. He put through the patriot act, he drove the country into a huge deficit, he is responsible for two wars and the death of over a 100,000 people, he is working to militirize space, he made a foreign policy shift in which we can pre-emptively strike other countries against international law, he has business relations with many people profiting from the war, he supports domestic policies that are a shift toward more private control over public assets, and he enivicts the name of god constantly to show he is on our side. He may not be Satan but he's not far off. He is a super rich white guy that has worked very hard to get his business partners very rich.
You act like no one can know what his motivations are, but they have stated what their goals are again and again. Have you heard of the project for a new american century? They have made clear shifts in policy and goals and one of them is to control the worlds oil supply. It also calls for a state of never ending war. These are doctrines the Bush administration (people like Cheney and Rumsfield) have played a huge role in shaping. I don't act like I know Bush personally but I have common sense and I can read about the goals that they put forth in their national security plans etc. Maybe you should look into the things that the adminstration states as it's goals before you say anything about us guessing the reasons. When they say "Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests? We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. . . We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities." The only thing you have to input there is their interests. That isn't hard to do either. If you think Bush's goals are to rid the world of terrorism then you are overlooking the fact that he and his regime are in fact involved with terrorism and have been throughout the last 20 years. You are overlooking the fact that he just got done killing 100,000 people for their own good. You haven't acknowledged that his administration was trying to pin 9-11 on Iraq only hours after it occured and has key financial interests in the country. If you don't look you can't see. A laughable reason to invade Iraq is to stop terrorism or free people and help out the poor nation of Iraq. How can you battle tyranny and take part in it yourself? The problem is that you believe the US is just trying to fix the world and they need to come around and do things are way cause it will be better since we are just trying to fix the world. Cure it of the ails of terrorism which we have supported and participated in for generations. All the sudden we are the good guys stopping those evil terrorists. Yet when you look at the history of terrorism the US has supported by far the worst acts of terrorism. I would suggest reading Hegemony or Surrvival by noam chomksy if you want to see what Iraq was about. Until then I'm the one laughing at the reason for invading Iraq was to stop terrorism and tyranny. That's incredibly funny.
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 5:06:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
*course...spell check is your friend.
Tell me exactly what Saddam Hussein lacked in terms of
setting off a "dirty" bomb or a nuclear warhead within
the United States. Money? Doubtful, nuclear warheads
can be picked up for under $100,000,000. Means?
Prior to 9/11, how difficult would it have been to
detonate a weapon of mass destruction in New York
City? Not very. Motive? Goes without saying.
To say that Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass
destruction is an assumption. Just as we haven't
proven that he did, it hasn't been proven that he
didn't. To say that he cooperated with the weapons
inspectors is complete BS...regardless of the liberal
spin the media puts on everything.
Being a soft liberal, how would you have handled Iraq,
assuming there were no terrorist actions at all.
Would you allow him to continue to slaughter thousands
of his own civilians? Funny how the evidence of
torture and the bodies they've found never seems to be
mentioned. Yes, plenty of people died...on both
sides. Life sucks.
I don't like Bush...never been a big fan. I'm not
gung-ho for the war, but I'm not entirely opposed to
it. Could have been handled better...but are liberals
convinced that Bush is the spawn of Satan? Do they
honestly think that he doesn't care about the loss of
life? I friggin' hated Clinton, but I'm not going to
say that he had complete disregard for human life. I
don't believe that President Bush is an evil man. May
not be the brightest guy in the world, but evil is a
ridiculous stretch. You'd think Charles Manson was in
office.
No one can anticipate the outcome of a war (i.e.
Vietnam or this current action). To stand by and do
nothing would have been far worse. For it to go the
way that it has is obviously tragic...but that doesn't
change the fact that Saddam needed to go.
I'm just sick of the liberals supposing that they know
Bush's motivations for everything when they don't know
a damn thing about his personal motivation, and
neither do I. If Bush did this for personal reasons,
or oil in Iraq or whatever, explain to me how Bush has
benefitted.
Everyone says this war was about oil. Has the price
of oil gone down? Hmm...'bout $2.30 a gallon here.
Has he made great strides toward popular support?
Nope, it actually hurt him more than it helped him.
Did he do it because it's "fun" to send troops into
battle? Some people would have you think so. Is it
to open an "economic door" to the middle east? I
don't see McDonald's in Iraq. Not too many Starbucks.
The only mass-market product we receive from Iraq is
oil, and the amount of oil we've received hasn't
increased.
I haven't heard a single, non-laughable reason why
Bush would commit to this war, other than to be
proactive against terrorism and tyranny worldwide. Do
I think he made mistakes along the way? Sure. Were
those mistakes costly? Absolutely. Will we
ultimately reach the "greater good". Yes.
nice ad hominem cpp. bravo. nothing says you're reaching like attacking the spelling. very profound point.
just what did he lack in terms of setting off a nuclear warhead or a dirty bomb? perhaps a nuclear warhead or a dirty bomb? where in the world would he get one? are they common enough that saddam can just skip
down to his neighborhood grocer and buy one? or would he have to get one from countries like russia, north korea, or very unlikely, iran, which
bush has all but ignored? where is the danger coming from now?
you still assume that he had WMD, and in doing so you prove my point. even now, with saddam detained and iraq 'free', you still believe that they
have WMD. well, that 'box' is right in front of your face. who knows, maybe we'll find a clue someday to solve the mystery of the obvious box.
label me what you will with your buzzwords. i am no liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican. however, i did vote for people in each of the above 'categories' in this last election, with the intent of voting for the best human being possible, not for the label. am i in conflict with myself? no, i am for what's best for me, my country, and the world. if any of those conflict with each other, i compromise.
there was evidence of iraqi torture for years, on every major news station. there were reports of torture chambers and testimony from the families of torture victims. did people care before the war? why should they care now? it's ironic how w switched his justification for war because it didn't exist to one that plays on the emotions of the very people who didn't care in the first place. he's killing the very civilians he's 'setting free'. does anyone care now? will they in the future?
is the world a 'liberal'? because an overwhelming majority of the people from it are the ones who are convinced that the war is wrong and that bush is the 'spawn of satan'. and how can you compare people's hatred of bush to that of clinton? one is notorious for war, the other for getting blowjobs from disgusting women. while the second may kill the mood, it certainly didn't kill thousands of people. but you're right, clinton didn't have disreguard for human life, i've never heard an argument that he did. especially when he stopped genocide in kosovo, which, as i might add, was his reason for going there in the first place. if bush is such a savior of the oppressed, then why is genocide still going on in the dafur region of sudan, when they have know about it for quite some time?
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/36042.htm
my favorite part: "So we are continuing to press the Government of Sudan and we continue to monitor them."
they went into iraq with much less evidence and even less reason. what's stopping them from halting a situation that is much more serious than selected iraqi torture?
strawman. not 'everyone' thinks this war is about oil. my proof? you don't. therefore, not everyone does. don't over generalize. and no one said that he did it because "it was 'fun' to send troops into battle".
while some people argue that it was for economic reasons, a starbucks in iraq != an american economic boom, you're the only one arguing that point.
"I haven't heard a single, non-laughable reason why
Bush would commit to this war, other than to be
proactive against terrorism and tyranny worldwide."
just because you haven't heard an answer that fits you, with an emphasis on the word 'you', bush was right? assuming the answer just because you don't like the alternatives is justification by ignorance.
speaking of dirty bombs, let's ask the expert:
Q: What are the differences between a dirty bomb and a
nuclear bomb?
Kathleen G.
Lake Zurich, IL
A: The differences between a dirty bomb and a nuclear
bomb are profound. A dirty bomb is not a nuclear bomb
even though it uses radioactive material. While a
nuclear bomb is surely a weapon of mass destruction, a
dirty bomb is at best a weapon of mass disruption. Few
people, if any, would die shortly after exposure to
the ionizing radiation from a dirty bomb. Perhaps many
(at most hundreds) would die from the conventional
bomb blast associated with a dirty bomb. In contrast,
many thousands to tens of thousands of people would
likely die from the explosion of a nuclear bomb
(assuming one roughly as powerful as the Hiroshima
bomb, which was modest compared to modern nuclear
weapons). As Dr. Allison writes in the companion essay
on this Web site, he has "compared the difference
between a dirty bomb and a nuclear bomb to the
difference between a lightning bug and lightning."
NOVA: Is there anything average citizens should or
could do to prepare for a dirty bomb attack, or should
they just be informed?
Allison: I think they should be informed and aware. It
is not the greatest risk for life, and it is not the
greatest risk for most people. Anybody who smokes
should put the dirty bomb threat in perspective and
say, "Wait a minute. I am already living dangerously."
Anybody who drinks and drives, or anybody who drives
recklessly?there are a lot of foolish behaviors that
we human beings do.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/dirtybomb/ferg-030305.html |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 5:50:22 PM
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Everytime I pose a question/statement to someone that disagrees with me, they take half of the question/statement and offer a rebuttal, yet ignore the other half...when in fact, they were directly related and the question/statement is erroneous without the other part. They also pick and choose the parts they feel they can argue against and ignore the rest.
Where in the world would he get one? Hell, if I had enough capital saved up, I could probably get one...let alone a guy with a contact list like his.
I never said that Bush was right. I believe he's handled things very poorly. I agree with the concept, but not his "plan of attack". His methodology is obviously flawed, or we wouldn't have this catastrophe on our hands.
Just because "no one" cared about the atrocities that occurred before 9/11 in Iraq, doesn't make it an invalid reason. Despite all the banter, I still haven't heard a reason he would invade Iraq other than attacking tyranny and "defending" America (pro-actively). I'm not saying that his ideals or actions have been right...I certainly disagree with a number of them (although far fewer than Kerry's). If he didn't do it because it's fun and he didn't do it for economic reasons and he didn't do it for oil (which you didn't refute), then why did he do it?
I'm not saying that I think the war on Iraq is justifyable. I don't think that the answer to everything should be to just rush in and blow everything up because we feel threatened or for economic reasons, or whatever other reason. I do think something ultimately needed to be done about Saddam. I don't think he would have just turned over a new leaf because the UN came in and slapped him on the wrist. If I were President, my reason for invasion (if any) would be to liberate the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein. Mission accomplished in that regard. I wouldn't have appointed my own chosen leader that's "western friendly"...that's one thing I disagree with entirely.
As much as thousands of lives were lost in this catastrophe, barely anyone...especially the media, focuses on any good that's come of it. The reason you don't see people rejoicing in the streets is not because they aren't rejoicing, it's because they're not being filmed. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 5:59:49 PM
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| liberal. |
death to false metal. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 9:00:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
liberal.
Ouch, lol. One word hurt more than the 500,000 word essays that Zachmozach writes. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 9:30:23 PM
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| actually, that was directed at master pants, but it seems you and i posted at the same time roughly. so that works, too. i have to hand it to zach, though. those posts are fucking long, but they seem to cover a great deal of information without a lot of bullshit. it's almost all content. they don't read like, say, a high school essay, which a lot of longer posts tend to. he's got sources and everything. i haven't the will to post something that long unless it's on lotr, videogames, music, or lotr videogames. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 10:14:32 PM
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James I guess I can't say that I know exactly what Bush's plans are and all that, but I can damn well say what they aren't. He didn't go into Iraq to stop tyranny because he created more than there was and the US sanctions were tyranny in and of themselves. Anyone with their head not up their ass can see how declaring war on a country that hasn't attacked you against the will of the entire world (outside of the coalition of the willing), is not going to improve your standing or safety in the world. He also didn't do it to fight terrorism as like I said and like anyone who has done thourough research on terrorism will find that they have participated in it over the last twenty years. You can't commit terrorist acts to wipe out terrorism. It's like erasing a chalk board by covering the entire board in chalk.
Now like I said check out the project for a new american century and look at what they are calling for. They say it in a way that makes it sound good and all that but if you look at what they have done over since being in power and you look at what business they are in you can put two and two together. The only reason the US or any other country is really interested in Iraq is oil. The mid-east in general. Look if you can't realize how much money lies in oil over there you need to hit the books. If I had more time I'd quote you an article written by a guy who worked with the Bush adminstration and he basically says quite candidely that the reason we are interested in Iraq is oil.
Now I know oil prices didn't drop which means absolutely shit. Because in the first place the US didn't use a lot of oil from Iraq even though US based corporations benifited from recieving the oil under the sanctions. So it only makes sense that they would keep the oil going to the same market. Also oil production is limited by law. That way no rogue nation with oil could start producing less oil and charge more or visa versa. They realize that the worlds oil supply has peaked and they are taking means to conserve it while also getting more buck for less oil. It only serves the oil industry to produce less. It means more profits over a shortened time. So now that the US has literally taken over the Iraq economy and will be making a long term commitment to controlling the middle east (which is why they are building 14 permanant bases) they have a foot hold in the middle-east which of course supplies the world energy.
Now the Bush administration is the most connected to the energy business of any administration in history. Conda-sleezy rice had an oil tanker named after her when working for cheveron. I don't think I need to explain Bush and Cheney's connection to the energy industry do I? Not to mention they both had ties with the energy angel Ken Lay of Enron fame. Now you add that Cheney is reaping profits from the war and all of the people connected to the Carslyle group (and thus bush). So many of the contracters working there have direct connections with bush. Now you might begin to see the imperialist goals of the US. Not to make the US state more powerful but for business interests to make the rich richer. Iraq has been turned into a paridise for anyone investors.
I can go on and on but I gotta close this up so I just wanted to say don't act like you don't ignore half of a statement and pick what you want to answer. If you have questions I'll do my best to answer them as directly as possible. Now if you really want some good info on the war read Chomksy's last book Hegemony or Surrvival. It has sources and info beyond belief.
Also if you think people are rejoicing in the streets you need to have you fucking head checked. There has been so much more mass protest then mass joy. One clip of a statue going down and everyone thinks Iraq loves yet you fail to acknowledge that 1/3 of the country is considered hostile to the US. I really think you should head on over to Z-net and read some of their reporting on Iraq. People are not rejoicing that they are occupied. That's just not even sane. Please tell me the good that came of it. |
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pants_happy
Chatterbox
412 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 11:51:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
1)Everytime I pose a question/statement to someone that disagrees with me, they take half of the question/statement and offer a rebuttal, yet ignore the other half...when in fact, they were directly related and the question/statement is erroneous without the other part. They also pick and choose the parts they feel they can argue against and ignore the rest.
2)Where in the world would he get one? Hell, if I had enough capital saved up, I could probably get one...let alone a guy with a contact list like his.
3)I never said that Bush was right. I believe he's handled things very poorly. I agree with the concept, but not his "plan of attack". His methodology is obviously flawed, or we wouldn't have this catastrophe on our hands.
4)Just because "no one" cared about the atrocities that occurred before 9/11 in Iraq, doesn't make it an invalid reason. Despite all the banter, I still haven't heard a reason he would invade Iraq other than attacking tyranny and "defending" America (pro-actively). I'm not saying that his ideals or actions have been right...I certainly disagree with a number of them (although far fewer than Kerry's). If he didn't do it because it's fun and he didn't do it for economic reasons and he didn't do it for oil (which you didn't refute), then why did he do it?
5)I'm not saying that I think the war on Iraq is justifyable. I don't think that the answer to everything should be to just rush in and blow everything up because we feel threatened or for economic reasons, or whatever other reason. I do think something ultimately needed to be done about Saddam. I don't think he would have just turned over a new leaf because the UN came in and slapped him on the wrist. If I were President, my reason for invasion (if any) would be to liberate the Iraqi people from Saddam Hussein. Mission accomplished in that regard. I wouldn't have appointed my own chosen leader that's "western friendly"...that's one thing I disagree with entirely.
6)As much as thousands of lives were lost in this catastrophe, barely anyone...especially the media, focuses on any good that's come of it. The reason you don't see people rejoicing in the streets is not because they aren't rejoicing, it's because they're not being filmed.
just so i don't exhaust myself, i've numbered the quotes instead of quoting one paragraph at a time.
1it's politics. i think we're all guilty of not answering all questions posed for whatever reason. except for maybe zach.
2)perhaps, i don't know that. but my real point was the where.
3)that sounds almost exactly like what kerry said when asked about his "flip-flopping" on how he could be both for and against the war. but you answered it shorter and better than he did.
4)my personal view on why he did it was to establish a US backed democracy in the center of a region very unfriendly towards the US. iraq probably won't be friends with israel any time soon, but "spreading freedom" as bush likes to call it could lead to more democratic changes and perhaps spark calls for political reform in the rest of the middle east.
how do i support this theory? he hasn't hidden it at all. everytime he talks about iraq and afghanistan (which i will say now that i do believe his interests were america's interests at the time in afghanistan), he talks about democracy, freedom, iraq being a "becon for democracy", ect, ect. in plain and simple words for all to hear, just nobody has really paid attention to the words. if my theory is true, i do believe that he is for the most part trying to proactively protect america by setting up friendly gov'ts, with an increase in trade and US influence (of all kinds) as icing on the cake. but if so, he is forcing his beliefs onto others (my biggest reason for disliking bush, him doing this in the US and abroad) and trying to establish hundreds of years worth of progress into a country in too little time. not to mention the proactive approach up until now hasn't been the US's policy for good reason, as it's probably the quickest path to war.
5)i mostly agree. anything i would have to say would be my opinion, and yours is good as is.
6) well, i think the media is expected to cover the worst of the worst. remember all those shark bite attacks some years ago(i can't remember the year)? absolute coverage resulting in people becoming afraid to go swimming in the ocean, even though the amount of shark bites were still around average. the same happened when elizabeth smart was kidnapped, the media swarmed around those, despite the level remaining about the same. but to be fair, the first part of the operation was shown to be welcomed by the iraqi people, it's the occupation they don't like.
actually, that was directed at master pants, but it seems you and i posted at the same time roughly. so that works, too. i have to hand it to zach, though. those posts are fucking long, but they seem to cover a great deal of information without a lot of bullshit. it's almost all content. they don't read like, say, a high school essay, which a lot of longer posts tend to. he's got sources and everything. i haven't the will to post something that long unless it's on lotr, videogames, music, or lotr videogames.
master pants?.  |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 11:10:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
actually, that was directed at master pants, but it seems you and i posted at the same time roughly. so that works, too. i have to hand it to zach, though. those posts are fucking long, but they seem to cover a great deal of information without a lot of bullshit. it's almost all content. they don't read like, say, a high school essay, which a lot of longer posts tend to. he's got sources and everything. i haven't the will to post something that long unless it's on lotr, videogames, music, or lotr videogames.
I'll try to post something on video games sometime, but I never get a chance to play anymore. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2004 : 5:41:29 PM
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| i haven't really, either. at least not as much as i used to. i have lotr: third age, but i've only just started. generally in the summer and winter breaks i do a lot of that. |
death to false metal. |
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The Election
