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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2004 : 6:21:00 PM
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yeah i know dumb question rihgt? i just taking a survvey. i for one haven't. yeah i know i'm missing out, but i don't have the time w/ running and all.
yes, jay, lay off the weed! |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 6:41:41 PM
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| Never. Same for cigarettes. |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 6:46:30 PM
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| ditto. i tried cigarettes once but never got the taste for them. |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 6:46:34 PM
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tried it...never tried cigarettes never will. I consider weed alot safer than cigarettes or alcohol, though i dont make a habit out of doing it.
but...
 LEGALIZE IT!! |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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therippa
Fluffy-Esque
Kazakhstan
1099 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 6:51:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by guitarisPIMP
I consider weed alot safer than cigarettes or alcohol
Agreed. I can't smoke anymore because I get panic attacks, but my philosophy has always been "No one ever got pregnant smoking weed" |
Aspiring to Be Fluffy-Esque an Alien Abductee! |
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thomasode
Yak Addict
565 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 7:38:56 PM
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| "If you knock it, try it first, and you will see it's a blessing and it's not a curse" |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 7:54:51 PM
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| i find the pot smoking culture absurd, to say the least. i haven't had a problem yet that something other than smoking weed couldn't solve, so as long as i'm getting alone without it, i'll keep it that way. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 9:40:05 PM
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| I agree with dan that the culture is absurd but then again in a way I guess I'm part of it since I on occasion might smoke some. However I'm not really part of the culture since I'm not really all that into it. It's something I can take or leave but every now and then I like to smoke some. I enjoy it and it's more of a meditative thing which I thinks help me to look at things from a different perspective. I still say everyone should try it at least twice if you are an adult. However it's not legal so maybe I should add to go somewhere where it is to try it. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:49:01 PM
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| yeah, i mean i'm not condemning weed and saying it's bad and don't do it. it's your choice and either is acceptable. i have chosen no to that, along with some other activities many enjoy. you do whatever it is you want. it's not as if every time you smoke weed a baby fucking melts in its mother's arms. |
death to false metal. |
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SandyCarl
Try A Little Harder
81 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:53:06 PM
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| Never smoked marijuana. Nope, never. The only thing illegal I do is speed [drive fast], which I'm sure some of you will tell me is more harmful and dangerous than marijuana. |
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Oozle
Chatterbox
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:55:17 PM
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Anyone else just take a nap? I have smoked pot few enough times to count on less than my 10 fingers and have always promptly fallen asleep shortly afterwards. I fell alseep at a Jane's Addiction concert once and that was just from one little puff and a contact high. Guess I am just a lightweight.  |
ren :) |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:56:15 PM
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| you're less likely to get caught with speed, though. if the cops show up while you're on it, you can just run clear across canada. |
death to false metal. |
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SandyCarl
Try A Little Harder
81 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2004 : 11:57:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
you're less likely to get caught with speed, though. if the cops show up while you're on it, you can just run clear across canada.
Actually by "speed" I just meant drive fast. But yeah, now that I read that post, that's not what it sounded like I meant. Will fix.
And actually now that I think about it, I don't really drive too fast too often anymore, anyway. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 12:03:17 AM
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oh. hahaha. that's real funny. yeah, i approve of speeding. it's my firm belief that you should be going at least 10 over at all times. of course everyone's system is different. me, i have 3 speeds i go at. 40, 55, and 80. 40 through developments with a lot of housing, 55 on all other roads, except highways which are 80.
i also believe that if you can't do the speed limit, for whatever reason, you don't belong on that road. driving a massive construction truck or machinery that can't or shouldn't go that fast? find another road. you're wasting everyone's time. too old to go the speed limit? find another road. with a cliff at the end. time isn't the only thing of everyone else's that you're wasting. |
death to false metal. |
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Oozle
Chatterbox
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 12:06:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
oh. hahaha. that's real funny. yeah, i approve of speeding. it's my firm belief that you should be going at least 10 over at all times. of course everyone's system is different. me, i have 3 speeds i go at. 40, 55, and 80. 40 through developments with a lot of housing, 55 on all other roads, except highways which are 80.
i also believe that if you can't do the speed limit, for whatever reason, you don't belong on that road. driving a massive construction truck or machinery that can't or shouldn't go that fast? find another road. you're wasting everyone's time. too old to go the speed limit? find another road. with a cliff at the end. time isn't the only thing of everyone else's that you're wasting.
Was that you driving behind me today honking and cussing?? |
ren :) |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 08:56:54 AM
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this is crazy, no one smokes a lot from what I read...
i t compare it to like shaving...a normal things, lol...i never really noticed before. |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 9:48:28 PM
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i agree w/ dan. i find that there are other ways to deal w/ life than to get high. myself i run. it's my addiction. i don't know if i could say it is heathier since there is a big potential to get hurt in the prosses (I.e knees shin splint stress fractures ect.) i however have been lucky to avoid all those things. it's like smoking. increases your rish of lung diease and other harmful things. i'm not comdeming weed. i'm friends w/ alot of smokers, all of them golden people to the last. i just prefere that they don't smoke in my presence.
and on the topic of weed i can find some way to defend it. for medicinal purposes it has a great purpose. i can't say weather or not to legalize it. mostly becaue once it becomes legalized then major companies will begin to produce it. from wht i hear it is not addictive. my point in case it that becoming legalized companies culd try to add things to make it addictive. |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 10:23:08 PM
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I don't smoke pot. I tried it, but I'd rather waste my money on food or music.
Why buy weed, when I need guitar strings? |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 10:57:07 PM
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| No one should smoke weed as a way to deal with life but in the same respect people do a lot of even worse things to deal with life. Like religion for one. Sorry that could open a flame war but it's my opinion and I don't want to hurt any religious people out there. I kinda have this theory though that everyone gets a high off of something whether it's eating or drinking or smoking or running everyone does something to help them level out and feel good and different things work for different people. Marijuana works for few. Oh and Arthen why buy? |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 12:18:13 AM
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um. . .religion is more harmful than weed? MERH. religion does no phyical harm.
i don't believe in anything like that. accept the possibility of every religion out there, but that's all they are. possibilities. i wouldn't base decisions concerning my alledged immortal soul on something i don't know for sure is right. but last i checked religion never gave anyone cancer, heart problems, or anything. don't bring up the crusades or anything. that wasn't about religion. it used religion as a front for raiding parties. it was also a long while ago. religion is harmless. except for the delusions.
i've always felt the best way to deal with life, or anything, it to face it head on, face to face. no hiding behind habits. just you and the issue. |
death to false metal. |
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pcbTIM
Alien Abductee
USA
6501 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 05:13:56 AM
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| Never....nor cigarettes....and very rarely alcohol. The closest I get is my allergy medication.....but I don't even take that anymore. |
Gay marriage killed the dinosaurs. |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 08:46:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
oh. hahaha. that's real funny. yeah, i approve of speeding. it's my firm belief that you should be going at least 10 over at all times. of course everyone's system is different. me, i have 3 speeds i go at. 40, 55, and 80. 40 through developments with a lot of housing, 55 on all other roads, except highways which are 80.
i also believe that if you can't do the speed limit, for whatever reason, you don't belong on that road. driving a massive construction truck or machinery that can't or shouldn't go that fast? find another road. you're wasting everyone's time. too old to go the speed limit? find another road. with a cliff at the end. time isn't the only thing of everyone else's that you're wasting.
I use the same system. I also feel the same way about douchebags that don't/can't even go the speed limit. Just yesterday I was going like 45 in a 30, and this jackass in a huge dump truck pulls out in front of me, black smoke billowing out of that piece of shit...he gets it up to a top speed of......25.
I pulled up along side him in the left turn lane at the next light, peeled out, went straight and left his ass behind. I fucking hate that shit. There were NO CARS behind me, and this fuckwad in his huge ass piece of construction equipment has to pull out in front of my speeding ass.
The main reason that I speed is that I hate driving, and I just want to get it over with. I mean, I love to drive, I just hate driving with other people on the road. The least stressful thing for me is driving home from somewhere at like 2am, because there are hardly any cars on the road. I think the cops should start pulling people over that go under the speed limit as well as over it. Make them go to traffic school and force them to drive fast.
Adam |
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Jay
Alien Abductee
Vatican City
2279 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 09:46:45 AM
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| Looks like I'm the resident expert out here...how bout that? I"m not even done with High School...I smoke weed cause it's a lot of fun for me. If circumstances provide for me not to smoke, I don't. To say the whole weed culture is absurd is part way true---there are a lot of idiots who only want to get high. But I've met some of the coolest, best people thru this drug...I mean, maybe it's just the area I live...I smoke cigarettes because I'm addicted, end of story. |
"Hey man...you smell..."
"Oh yeah?"
"yeah...like dinner..." |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 11:26:02 AM
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no. not end of story. you're addicted, but why get addicted to something that'll kill you to begin with? when you started smoking, you knew that those would do, so why did you start? did you just not care?
i've heard all kinds of reasons for smoking from people my age and younger. the two most common are "i don't care." and "we're all going to die anyway." and i know for a fact that once any one of them, you included, picks up a cancer or a heart problem. you'll start caring pretty fucking quick. all these "i don't fear death" and "live life to the fullest" facades are going to crack right down the middle. and i'll be there with a shit eating grin on my face that says "this is happening to you and not to me" i can honestly say i won't feel any pity for future cancer patience who smoked. you reap what you sow.
also everyone needs to stop complaining about 2nd hand smoke. it's not that big a deal. |
death to false metal. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 1:59:45 PM
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| im not thru high school either, and i do it now and then. i dont depend on it or use it to get through life, i just go ahead and use it when its convenient and when i want. And i agree about the second hand smoke thing, its ridiculous. Public areas are public areas, period. I dont smoke cigarettes, but the only thing i have against second hand smoke is that i may smell if im around them and theyre smoking alot. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 2:12:15 PM
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marijuana has no addictive substances.
it also has not been tested throughly enough to prove that in fact it does any physical harm. Sure of course smoke is bad for you, but technically, no testing has proven that marijuana smoke is somehow worse then being behind a dump truck, as someone else said....
anyway fuck it
just don't eat ambien, that shit is the devil. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 2:26:23 PM
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| I don't think second hand smoke is too big of an issues, but I'm damn glad that I can go into any restaurant and not have to worry about breathing in smoke or smelling cigarettes. The one thing CA did right. The law about not being able to smoke in bars is stupid. I mean, everyone is their to damage their livers, but they are worried about their lungs? That's stupid. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 3:19:00 PM
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new york too...
unless you are a performer, it is considered a "prop"
chris whitley smokes all the time on stage.
I remember him saying "How about that mayor" right after he lit one up, it was hilarious. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 4:39:58 PM
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| ahahah now marijuana second hand smoke is a bit different. i could definitely see why people wouldnt wanna get high from others roaming the streets or sitting in a bar with a lit up fat blunt. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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Jay
Alien Abductee
Vatican City
2279 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 4:50:02 PM
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quote:
i've heard all kinds of reasons for smoking from people my age and younger. the two most common are "i don't care." and "we're all going to die anyway." and i know for a fact that once any one of them, you included, picks up a cancer or a heart problem. you'll start caring pretty fucking quick. all these "i don't fear death" and "live life to the fullest" facades are going to crack right down the middle. and i'll be there with a shit eating grin on my face that says "this is happening to you and not to me" i can honestly say i won't feel any pity for future cancer patience who smoked. you reap what you sow.
Exactly, I like doing it...that's my reason, I like everything about it, and I thoughorly enjoy it. If that changes, I'll try to quit, but right now I'm fine. |
"Hey man...you smell..."
"Oh yeah?"
"yeah...like dinner..." |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 7:01:32 PM
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| right now you're fine. you have no right to bitch later when it comes back on you. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 9:28:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
um. . .religion is more harmful than weed? MERH. religion does no phyical harm.
Seriously I think it is for the most part. Because no one who has any sort of responsibility should have any problem with smoking weed and it really doesn't do anything to you physically that is bad. However religion and especially christianity has been a hinderence to all that is good on this earth. I mean it's tried it's damndest over the years to crush science. It enslaves people by taking advantage of their emotions and scaring them. Granted it doesn't seem like there is really anything wrong with religion but everyone I know whose voting Bush is religious, and everyone who is all against gay rights stuff are all doing so because the bible says it's wrong. I mean weed can possibly keep you from reality but religion does a far better job of keeping people away from reality. I don't think relgion is physically harmful other than the mental stuff which to me it's harmful for people to go around believing a bunch of BS myths that they take as truth. Besides the absolutism of religion. My point is religion has justified some of the worst acts in human history and marijuana has done what that is so bad? |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2004 : 10:00:14 PM
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well first of all, you're discounting all religions as false, when in fact you don't know they're false. get your hands on some proof and then you can talk about that. until then, there's really not much to say. might be true. maybe not. maybe gays and non christians do all go to hell. maybe the folks who knocked over the pentagon and wtc are sitting in heaven right now with however many virgins with them. you hope gays and non christians don't go to hell. and you hope the 9/11 terrorists aren't scoring big time in heaven, but face the truth: you don't know for sure, and you're basing your assumptions an absolutely nothing at all. neither do i, so i'm not going to sit around and make a declaration one way or another. i don't know any more than you do.
mother thersa was religious, too. yeah, a real bad seed, there. jesus christ, from what anyone knows about him, was a good man. a liberal like you, if nothing else. what do buddhists do that's so bad? you're just looking at the extremes of religion. if i said islam was an evil cult of perversion and murder, you'd be all over me for bigotry. i'd be wrong because that's just one extreme side of it. the ridiculously anti-gay are also fairly far to the right. your generalizations are innaccurate and without ground.
in extreme cases of usage, marijuana does do harm too. in extreme cases, like religion. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 2:42:20 PM
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Ok anyone whether they believe in almost any religion basically has the belief that the earth is only like 6000 or maybe a little more but that man is only 6000 years old. That's BS. I'm calling the creation stories from many different religions BS. So I am assuming that all the religions are wrong because I don't believe in supernatural stuff like that. What I should have said orginally was how I think it's funny that the people who are usually most anti-pot are usually these christians or religous people that think it's bad because people have to use it to cope with reality when it's my opinion that they use religion to cope with reality. So it's complete hypocrasy on their part.
Now if it's true then I still think it's complete BS as a system for life. I don't want anything to do with god because he's a complete ass. As for buddhism I actually think it's less harmful then the christian stuff but it's still crazy to me. I just don't agree with the culture that says men need to be saved. Sure Jesus seems like a pretty cool guy and he had some good teachings but all he really ever said was do unto others as you would have done unto you. I guess my problem isn't with people that are just trying to be good people. It's with the relgion that I think is BS and the people who have abused it. In the end though I think that peoples crazy relgious beliefs have caused more trouble in this world then marijuana. Last time I remember marijuana wasn't responsible for burning people alive. Torturing them and setting up deep hatred between people even in the extreme cases of marijuana. Besides I know of no one who smokes more than my bro and he is doing just fine for himself. I think if anyone is smoking more then him they are just insane. So ya I hate the extremes of religion and only have a slight dislike for religion in general. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 6:41:08 PM
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| yeah, i'm with you there for the most part about "trying to be good people." they're not being themselves. i just felt you oversimplified such a massive thing like religion before. |
death to false metal. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 6:50:37 PM
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There are a few things every religious person needs to understand about their religion, particularly Christianity. Any popular religion basically started out as any other cult, and slowly gained popularity. Of course, no one large sect of the human race is ready and willing to accept a whole new system of beliefs, so that is where adaptation comes into play. Things like December 25th, and fish on fridays are essentially political ploys and bullshit tacked onto the religion by others in order to expand their religion or serve some other purpose. Institutions are run by people, and people are troublesome and greedy, and religion is no exception to these rules of human nature. Also, zachmo, about all that creationism theory built into religion, thats just another part of religion developed by early on humans. Its nothing more than a story added into the religion to further glorify whoever is glorified, and to explain to the believers how they came to be, so they can all stop arguing and wondering. Back then it was accepted that the world was round(*EDIT* i meant flat here...just noticed i made that typo), and everyone surely believed that, but we know now that this is false, just like now we know based on big-bang theories that the whole World in 7 days thing is likely false as well.
I believe that if one is to accept whatever religion they want, they shouldn't dive into their books and scripture unquestioned; they should analyze all these things in their religion and come up with their own beliefs that they can accept themselves, and form their own kind of adapted religion.
 PHEW I feel like i just wrote a friggin essay on religion. Anyways if you didnt read all of that up there, my whole point was in reply to zachmo that you cant look at religion and put it all under one category as what the very first believers of the religion had thought, and that religion, like anything else human, has human flaws reflected in it.
You're right though zachmo, marijuana is as harmless as a bush out in the front of ur house, with the exception that you probably don't smoke the bush out front and take in all those carcinogens form the plant matter (which is why vaporization is the best way to toke in my opinion). |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2004 : 6:53:31 PM
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| guitarispimp seems to have summed it up nicely. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 6:10:42 PM
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| Ya I would agree with you guitarisPIMP. I'm one of these people that believe religions that believe that man needs to be saved evolved from the culures that practice totalitarian agriculture. So ya it's not just religion in general I have a problem with it's just the absolutism of it all I guess. I don't care what someone believes as long as they are trying to be a good person. |
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Oozle
Chatterbox
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 12:26:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
Ya I would agree with you guitarisPIMP. I'm one of these people that believe religions that believe that man needs to be saved evolved from the culures that practice totalitarian agriculture. So ya it's not just religion in general I have a problem with it's just the absolutism of it all I guess. I don't care what someone believes as long as they are trying to be a good person.
I think the bible was written by men as a means of controling the masses. It an interesting story but men (and women, of course LOL) have a huge tendency to embellish. What better way to get people to do what you want than to tell them they are going to go to hell if they don't do what is expected of them. Man, what guilt that can cause! How do you think they get so many suicide bombers splattering their guts all over Bagdad? I am not saying I don't believe in God, but I don't care for religion. At all. I can remember the terrifying sermons in my grandparents church when we came to visit them. Aye, a typical Irish Catholic family they were! Ya know, at this point in my life, I am so going to hell so why even try? LOL Just my take on things. |
ren :) |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2004 : 8:55:14 PM
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on the subject of religion, i personally do not follow any. i do not believe that there is an all powerful god. i do not believe that there is a heave or hell in which our souls go to when we expire via weed cigarettes or second hand smoke. or in the case of GuitarGuy305 hitting a quote:
big ass piece of construction equipment
that pulls out in front of you. i guess i have never been, don't take this the wrong way "weak minded" enough to believe that there is a powerful superbeing watching me giving me strength for everyday chalenges. i believe that i am in controll of my own actions and that in the event that i fuck up i am the one who should fix it and will have the strength to fix it. if i get myself into a problem i get myself out by myself.
however i am not disputing the fact that there might be a god. i however do not believe this. i feel that we are all free to make our own choices. i do not like it at all when people tell me that i am wrong and that i am going to burn in hell because i am a "non-conformist" believer. i feel that you aredisrespecting my right to not believe while i am allowing you to keep your right to believe in whatever you want. |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 3:45:12 PM
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did you think that by saying "don't take this the wrong way" you somehow change the meaning of "weak minded." why did you do that? you still called believers weak minded. now you're telling them not to be offended by it? just call them weak minded, if that's what you think, and be done with it.
i'd be inclined to disagree anyway. some of the devout believers i know are very steadfast and strong in their faith. they don't bend or change because they are ridiculed. that's being strong minded in a sense. if they were weak minded, they would change or lie about their faith with a little provocation. |
death to false metal. |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 8:25:49 PM
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| good point. they won't bend its the form of being strong minded w/ religion. i just can't believe that there is some powerful being controlling my actions. that's the reason why i don't believe in fate either. if my life is planned out for me then what is the point of day to day existance? i need to believe that i have some controll over my life instead of it being written out or influenced be something. |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 8:30:11 PM
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| i don't know that the idea of predestination and the absolute control of us as some kind of flesh marionettes by a god is that common these days. if that were the case, then there couldn't justly be any sort of disharmony among people. most people who follow the major religions will tell you that pain and sin exists because god gave us free will, which implies there is no absolute control over us. |
death to false metal. |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 8:58:37 PM
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true there would be no wars or other acts of crulty if we were puppets on strings. although i'm puzzled on why there would be pain and sins if we have free will. if god gave us free will then why does he need to punish us for our acttions. is it becasue w/o pain and sins we would have no feelings of morals or what is right and that he is up there to act as a sort of supervisor? to referee our day-to-day transactions w/ people? and make sure that we do good to people because it is morally correct. or am i just missing the whole big picture?
another question is if there is a god why are there people like me who don't believe that he exists? is that our choice of free will to choose what we believe? |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 10:04:00 PM
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| yes, we choose to believe or not believe. there is suffering involved with free will because, let's face it, we're flawed creations, be it a creation of happenstance or divine will. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 1:52:33 PM
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| dan have you ever read ishmael or anything by daniel quinn? I think it would provide some insight into the idea of people being flawed. I don't think that humans are flawed I think that since we've taken on oursleves the knowledge of good and evil and turned what was once a sacred hoop of life into a pyramid with humans at the top it's perpetued an athropocentic view of the world and made us believe that we are flawed creatures. Look if you read the creation story in genesis it provides a viewpoint into our culture and views on the world that is mind boggling. Because what was it that made men fall? Here was Adam (hebrew for man) and he was living in a state of innocence in which the earth provides him with everything he needs as it is a garden of food. Then he takes upon himself the knowledge of the gods by eating of the fruit of good and evil. Now he thinks he's a god and that he decides that he should control who lives and who dies. Taking himself out of the natural circle of life and putting himslef atop a pyramid. That was the fall of man and is today the only flaw in man is that we don't live within the laws that all other beings live with. We have broken the peace keeping law of nature and that is why man is fallen. This is a very old story and I think it's very metephorical. Religous people are missing the meaning in the story. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 4:21:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
dan have you ever read ishmael or anything by daniel quinn? I think it would provide some insight into the idea of people being flawed. I don't think that humans are flawed I think that since we've taken on oursleves the knowledge of good and evil and turned what was once a sacred hoop of life into a pyramid with humans at the top it's perpetued an athropocentic view of the world and made us believe that we are flawed creatures.
adam was able to take the fruit because of free will.
it doesn't take any theological philosophical discussion to realize we're flawed. look around you. it's almost all flaw. you say man's only law is the breaking of the natural cycle, but i can name more. greed, hatred, jealousy, and dishonesty. they're everywhere. our faults come from how we choose to live our lives. there's no escaping that, and there's no one to blame but ourselves. |
death to false metal. |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 8:38:52 PM
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| and these flaws i speculate come from our own free will to choose. what puzzles me is why we would have flaws if we were created divine. i would think that we all would have this snece of wanting to do what id fair and jst automatically because it is god will and we were created by him. |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 9:27:59 PM
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| yeah, that's why i'm a little skeptical. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 10:14:37 PM
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Look I probaly can't explain this well but I look at it like this. Religions purpose is to show people the right way to live. That's basically what I feel religion is all about only I think that they're way way off. That's all anyone's philosophy of life is aobut though is finding their right way to live. The problem I think however is that the story people are enacting in there lives or the story they are trying to make come true says that man is flawed whether your enacting the christian, buddhist, or athiest story. For instance look at the people in Nazi Germany back in the day. Sure there were some people against it and passive people but a majority of people were actually trying to bring the 3000 year reich to life. The same is true of anyone in any culture. They are just trying to enact the story they believe.
So all I'm saying is humans have these stories of how to live but all believe man is flawed and I believe that's part of the story. It's a part of the culture that you are indoctrinated into like or not. Now answer me this are horses flawed? How about Chickens? How about Trees? How about lions are they flawed? Is nature flawed? Is the thing that shaped human existence flawed? I don't know what you think but I don't think that you can say an animal like that is flawed. How could it be? Maybe you can tell me or say they are but as of now I don't think they are.
So my point is that it's not man who is flawed but the story that's flawed. That our culture that has engulfed the earth is what's wrong. The view that the earth was created for man or that we are destined to rule it is what's breaking the peace here on earth. When the story says man is doomed to live a life of hell or maybe slightly better or maybe even a decent life that's exactly what's going to happen. I'm basically saying that when the agricultural reveloution took place man fell because he put himself into the realm of what before was left up to the gods.
Look at the indians of the plains in North America. By far the ones who fought the hardest to continue their way of life. Consider that they were farmers before the spanish intorduced horses. Then they became hunter gatherers. It wasn't that long after this that they were fighting for there way of life. The white man came and said that they shouldn't live like they did and should live like white people growing crops and such. They already knew though that they had a good lifestyle with the hunter gathering because it wasn't that long ago that they were farmers. That's why they resisted so hard is because this way of life that was forced on them was a much harder lifestyle.
I don't think I can explain this all in any sort of detail but check out Ishmael it really is a great fucking book. I guess I can't argue that man isn't flawed though but if we are then we will become extinct and nature will have fixed the flaw hopefully before we destroy all life on this planet. Nature fixes flawes that's what comes of natural selection. Nature tries to ensure the right way to live by keeping those who live that way around. It's just too bad that we followed it up until 10,000 years ago and now we are all going to be screwed. It's too damn bad we fight against nature like that. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 10:43:35 PM
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do you believe if there was a religion that said man was not flawed, that all the people who followed that religion would be free from the inherent flaws of man. i wish i could believe that.
it's easy to point at a faceless thing like religion and the stories they tell for us to live, and to point to that same thing to make us right. it's harder to demand yourself to live a better life. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 9:24:20 PM
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I guess it's just looking at man and saying what exactly our human flaws and what is learned behavior? I think that early accounts of natives from this continent show some things that really pointed to the whole noble savage idea. I mean ya they weren't perfect but look at some of the explorers accounts of the people and how they shared belongings so there was not theft. Just all sorts of things like that. Then look at some of the aborigine cultures and I think it's evident that they have a much better social system and structure because it works much greater. The competition between people for basic needs is almost not there because they only live off of what they need.
So I guess if that people just followed a religion that said man is perfect nothing is going to change. It's living a whole different lifestyle. Living a whole different story. Like for instance people that live in these cultures have a territory of sorts that they protect not because they believe that it belongs to them but just that they are here and a neighboring tribe is there. They may war one with another but the wars are completely different than our wars. They don't try to wipe out another tribe where as our culture does and then takes it over.
Now you can look at this two ways. You can say that this is terrible that there is war like this or you can look at it another way to see the purpose it serves. One it helps to keep population down not by the killing but by realization that one group cannot get larger than another and just overtake them just because they have limited resources. So that keeps a pretty good power structure set up when everything is local. It also ensures that many lifestyles and many variations of culture will surrvive. Kinda like the idea that varition of species is more healthy and ensures surrvival. So it's not that people aren't still going to die and man will always die.
So to me it's just what you see the flaws are. War over territory and that is a natural way of life since animals also use it. If man were to begin to act out the story that he acted out for millions of years before the agricultural reveloution, the same story that bushmen and tribal people are enacting today it would ensure that man barring some collision with an astroid would live as long as the conditions permit. It's a way of life that is proven to work since it's been the one man has lived along with all the other species for millions of years. It' what's responsible for our existence today.
I couldn't agree more though about what you said about living a better life. I think it's beyond religion that tells us how to live though it's just part of the culture. I mean relgion shapes culture but culture shapes relgion. They have always been formed together. I'm just saying you have no chance of living a good life when the story you are enacting says you should live a bad life. Or that man is screwed or whatever else. The culture that says man is bad will produce men that are bad. So there is still going to be suffering on earth but at least men will be around to know it in another million years if we switch stories and ways of life. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 9:32:47 PM
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| i know of man only what i see. and i know that all they have to do to improve is to say "i am going to stop being greedy" or "i am going to stop being hateful." or whatever it is. and then do it. i agree that we use out supposedly flawed nature to excuse a lot of our wrong doings, but it doesn't take a whole "story change," whatever that may be. all it takes is a little self-honesty and determination. obviously that's difficult, and not everyone will do it, but if we could. if i could, if you could, if what's-his-name, could, we'd be a lot better off. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 9:50:37 PM
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| Ok but I still think you should check out Ishmael. Or maybe his book the Holy is more your style but Ishmael is really a genious book along with the story of B. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:36:11 PM
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| yeah what the hell. i'll give it a shot. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 1:11:30 PM
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| Ok let me know what you think. |
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Captain Petersburgh
Yak Addict
Canada
779 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 8:01:30 PM
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there are two main points that i would like to point out.
the first is this posted by zachmozach
quote:
So all I'm saying is humans have these stories of how to live but all believe man is flawed and I believe that's part of the story. It's a part of the culture that you are indoctrinated into like or not. Now answer me this are horses flawed? How about Chickens? How about Trees? How about lions are they flawed? Is nature flawed? Is the thing that shaped human existence flawed? I don't know what you think but I don't think that you can say an animal like that is flawed. How could it be? Maybe you can tell me or say they are but as of now I don't think they are.
i am reminded by that line from Jurassic park [quote"...God creates dinosaurs. God destroys Dinosaurs. God Creates man. Man destroys God. Man Creats dinosaurs.]
yesmother nature or god takes out the flaws, but there are a faction of people who do not believe. and that leads me to another point,are we stoppable? yes we may beindeed flawed, but humans are the only species that are truly capable of controlling their enviorment. when we want a lake we dam a river. if we want farmland we destroy a forest. we build weapons that are capable of oblitherating life as we know it. weather god or nature created us are we stoppable? have we slain the for some image of pure good that is god?
on the subject of religion. to sum it all up i guess the main thing that it hold to is what dan P. said quote:
it's easy to point at a faceless thing like religion and the stories they tell for us to live, and to point to that same thing to make us right. it's harder to demand yourself to live a better life.[/quote]making the demand of yourself to live pure of heart. it only serves as a reminder or a guide. |
A nice word and a gun will get you alot farther than just a nice word |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 10:05:06 PM
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| Read Ishmael! I also agree with what Dan said but now how are you to judge what is right and wrong? Either way your view of the world is shaped by your culture and you can live what you think is a good life in your culture and still be part of a non working system. Wheras just having some story and thinking that's going to change everything is not right either. You still have to live the right way. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:50:24 PM
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| it's easy to judge what's right and wrong. ask yourself: "is [whatever] right or wrong." then give yourself an honest answer about how you feel. |
death to false metal. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 8:26:18 PM
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| interesting how the topic flowed from marijuana, to practice ethics, to religion. I guess pot just brings up alot of issues doesnt it? |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 11:14:49 PM
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| Ya dan that's great for an individual but how are they really to know if abortion is right or wrong? They may think it is or isn't that's fine for them but it's not going to be something everyone agrees on. There is a conflicting view of the right way to live. Ethics and morals are different for different people. Also what you think is right or wrong is shaped by your culture. I mean how else do you explain the holacaust? Those people thought they were ushering a paridise on earth that would come about once the white arayan race was the only race left. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 12:31:45 AM
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the holacaust. that was the spanish, right?
what's so senseless about the abortion issue is that addressing the question "is abortion right or wrong?" is not addressing the problem at all. the problem is "why are having babies when they don't want them/can't afford them?"
up to a certain point, yes, your culture does shape your morals. but once you're able to reason for yourself and start questioning why you thought something was right or wrong, what you were brought up to believe seems to fall apart. if culture did shape morals then more or less everyone would have more or less the same principles, and that's just not the case. look at the differences on this board alone. |
death to false metal. |
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so anyone here ever smoke pot?
