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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
 Posted - 09/24/2004 : 3:11:49 PM
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I've always just taken the approach of listening to a song and finding notes that seemed to fit relatively well over it and going with that...which I'm sure there's some merit to. But, I'm trying to figure out some of the theory of why certain notes sound good and why others don't.
Take a very simple song, like Night Moves by Bob Seger. The chord progression I figured out as Ab, Gb, Db (or G#, F#, C#, whatever). Sounds close enough to me. Anyway, assuming the song is in Db, I can play the typical:
6-----9
6-----9
6--8---
6--8---
6--8---
------9
...pattern, and that sounds fine. But what are my alternatives? I don't want to be a "pentatonic guitarist", so to speak. I know I can fiddle around with the other notes of the major scale, but they will sometimes sound dissonant. I'm wondering how I can get an entirely different sound though. Say I wanted to add a country twang to it, or something a little more soulful, or something sorta Spanish sounding. While they might not be appropriate in the context of the song, I'm wondering how people go from the progression and think of the sound they want, and come to a certain scale/mode.
Basically, when I figure out the key of a song, I sit there and play the same 5 notes in a two octave pattern, over and over again. Granted, it sounds solid most of the time, but it gets *extremely* boring. Any suggestions on patterns/things I can learn to spice things up? |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 9:46:36 PM
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Hey man. Modal is the way to go to add a different feel to a solo or melody line. Now, I have read TONS of threads trying to explain modes in any number of ways all of which confused the piss out of me, and I had no musical knowledge at all b4 picking up the guitar 2 years ago and I learned modes in about 5 minutes. Here's the gag. All a mode is whatever scale you are playing, you start from a different note in the scale. For example, and I can't believe you used Bob Seger,(We've Got Tonight was my prom theme...Jesus Christ) if what you are playing is in Db, here's the rundown: (key of Db: Db,
Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C)
From Db: Ionian Mode - regular major sound
From Eb: Dorian Mode - pleasant minor sound
From F: Phrygian Mode - Spanish sound
From Gb: Lydian Mode - slightly off beat minor sound
From Ab: Mixolydian Mode - jazzy funky sound
From Bb: Aeolian Mode - natural minor sound
From C: Locrian Mode - pretty damned scary
So from just your major or minor scale, you can employ any of these to make whatever corresponding feel. Don't get me wrong, look into other scales, harmonic minor, melodic minor, etc. for other sounds, but modal stuff is a good way to start if all you know is the major scale. If you have any ?'s or whatever, I'll check the thread again.
PEACE |
http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2004 : 11:37:29 AM
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Hopeful Rolling Waves had a good explanation there.
I had the same questions a year or so ago, which led me to the best book I ever bought on scales and modes:
It's become like my bible.
Adam |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2004 : 5:20:41 PM
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| I was thinking about picking that Grimoire up, Guitar Guy. I'll take your recoommendation. |
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Silky The Pimp
Alien Abductee
3321 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2004 : 08:13:55 AM
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| Hey Adam, do you think that book would be useful to someone like myself, who has always just played by ear but never given any time to learning theory? |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2004 : 10:35:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopeful Rolling Waves
a mode is whatever scale you are playing, you start from a different note in the scale. For example, and I can't believe you used Bob Seger,(We've Got Tonight was my prom theme...Jesus Christ) if what you are playing is in Db, here's the rundown: (key of Db: Db,
Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C)
From Db: Ionian Mode - regular major sound
From Eb: Dorian Mode - pleasant minor sound
From F: Phrygian Mode - Spanish sound
From Gb: Lydian Mode - slightly off beat minor sound
From Ab: Mixolydian Mode - jazzy funky sound
From Bb: Aeolian Mode - natural minor sound
From C: Locrian Mode - pretty damned scary
LOL, sorry about the Bob Seger reference. It just happened to be on the radio at the TIMe I was writing that post and it's a really straightforward song.
Anyway, I understand what you're saying, but my hangup is on the word "start". I guess I've never understood, if you're playing the same notes (regardless of where you "start"), why it would sound any different. Say you're in Db and you're playing Dorian, starting with Eb. Does that mean that you would just start one whole step higher than the normal major scale, and *not* hit the Db that's one step below you're starting note? Likewise for the notes "above" the bounding Eb on the high end of the mode?
And within even the major scale, there are certain notes that sound like crap over certain chords (or at least dissonant to me). Is there some sort of rule of thumb for that? I'm guessing that if you play a note within the scale that's a half step off of a note in the chord you're playing, it'll sound off...but I haven't sat down to try and verify that.
Thanks much for your advice, and I'll grab that book. Wonder if something like Barnes & Noble would have it. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2004 : 6:40:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Silky The Pimp
Hey Adam, do you think that book would be useful to someone like myself, who has always just played by ear but never given any time to learning theory?
I've always played by ear too. I've been jamming with random musicians since I was like 14 or 15. I pretty much played what sounded good by ear. I did this for a few years, and when I was about 19 or 20, I decided to look into learning scales. I bought a book called "Guitar Scale Guru". It was a great basis for learning scales, and that led me to the Guitar Grimoire. I really first picked up the book because I wanted to know the reason why stuff sounded good, and the theory behind solos and things. Learning those modes, which I have not made a DENT in memorizing many of them, really opens up your eyes as far as soloing and writing goes.
I still mainly play by ear. Playing by ear is always a good basis. I never sit there and try to figure out what key/mode a song should be played in. You'll play more bad notes doing that than just playing by ear. I always play by ear to start, and then I notice trends that lead me to what key/mode a song is played in.
Adam |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 03:52:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
I've always just taken the approach of listening to a song and finding notes that seemed to fit relatively well over it and going with that...which I'm sure there's some merit to. But, I'm trying to figure out some of the theory of why certain notes sound good and why others don't.
Take a very simple song, like Night Moves by Bob Seger. The chord progression I figured out as Ab, Gb, Db (or G#, F#, C#, whatever). Sounds close enough to me. Anyway, assuming the song is in Db, I can play the typical:
6-----9
6-----9
6--8---
6--8---
6--8---
------9
...pattern, and that sounds fine. But what are my alternatives? I don't want to be a "pentatonic guitarist", so to speak. I know I can fiddle around with the other notes of the major scale, but they will sometimes sound dissonant. I'm wondering how I can get an entirely different sound though. Say I wanted to add a country twang to it, or something a little more soulful, or something sorta Spanish sounding. While they might not be appropriate in the context of the song, I'm wondering how people go from the progression and think of the sound they want, and come to a certain scale/mode.
Basically, when I figure out the key of a song, I sit there and play the same 5 notes in a two octave pattern, over and over again. Granted, it sounds solid most of the time, but it gets *extremely* boring. Any suggestions on patterns/things I can learn to spice things up?
The chords to that song are in the key of Db. It's a very diatonic progression, meaning that it strongly demands something that sounds like Db major. In other words, you don't have a whole lot of liberty on what to play.
The first option you have in lieu of Db major pentatonic (what you wrote out), is the 7 note Db major scale.
Also, in any major key there are 3 pentatonics you can play that fit inside the key. The major pentatonics correspond to the I, IV, and V chords in a key. In Db major, that would be Db major pentatonic, Gb major pentatonic, and Ab major pentatonic.
You can play any of those three pentatonics at any time. You don't have to wait for an Ab major chord to play Ab major pentatonic. In fact, it sounds really great over a Db major chord.
Other than that, it's mostly the specific notes of the scale that you choose that make you sound one way or another. Whether you use lots of scales, or if you use lots of arpeggios of the chords of Db major, it will create different sounds.
Contrary to popular belief, it's not the scale that is the most important thing to determining how a solo will sound, as much as it is the chord progression that you play over. If you want a Spanish sounding scale, you almost need a spanish sounding progression to play over to achieve this. |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 03:58:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hopeful Rolling Waves
Hey man. Modal is the way to go to add a different feel to a solo or melody line. Now, I have read TONS of threads trying to explain modes in any number of ways all of which confused the piss out of me, and I had no musical knowledge at all b4 picking up the guitar 2 years ago and I learned modes in about 5 minutes. Here's the gag. All a mode is whatever scale you are playing, you start from a different note in the scale. For example, and I can't believe you used Bob Seger,(We've Got Tonight was my prom theme...Jesus Christ) if what you are playing is in Db, here's the rundown: (key of Db: Db,
Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C)
From Db: Ionian Mode - regular major sound
From Eb: Dorian Mode - pleasant minor sound
From F: Phrygian Mode - Spanish sound
From Gb: Lydian Mode - slightly off beat minor sound
From Ab: Mixolydian Mode - jazzy funky sound
From Bb: Aeolian Mode - natural minor sound
From C: Locrian Mode - pretty damned scary
So from just your major or minor scale, you can employ any of these to make whatever corresponding feel. Don't get me wrong, look into other scales, harmonic minor, melodic minor, etc. for other sounds, but modal stuff is a good way to start if all you know is the major scale. If you have any ?'s or whatever, I'll check the thread again.
PEACE
Modes are nice, but they don't exactly work that way.
Say I'm playing over a Db major chord. I can play Db major starting on and ending on F as much as I want, but it will never be F phrygian. I can start on and end on Eb as much as I want, but it will never be Eb dorian. Because the harmony is a Db major chord, the scale will always be Db major.
When you're in a diatonic context such as this, modes don't really work. Everything is heard in relation to the tonic, in this case Db, so everything will sound like a Db major scale.
Modes are not determined solely by the note the melody starts or ends on. Modes are how all 7 notes relate to a particular chord. Since all 7 of the modes you listed contain the same notes, over Db major they will all have exactly the same sound.
In order for them to be modal, either the harmony much change, or you have to use the modes in a parallel fashion (Db major, Db dorian, Db phrygian, etc), but this doesn't work in a strictly diatonic situation like this because it creates too much unexpected dissonance and therefore just sounds like wrong notes.
Guitar players are particularly succeptible to thinking that if you start on a different note of the scale, it's a different mode because too often modes are taught in conjunction with the 7 positions of a major scale on the neck. The patterns are nothing more than different positions of the same scale, rather than different modes. Harmony is the ultimate deciding factor in determining what scale/mode you will call a group of notes. |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2004 : 2:09:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
Modes are nice, but they don't exactly work that way.
Say I'm playing over a Db major chord. I can play Db major starting on and ending on F as much as I want, but it will never be F phrygian. I can start on and end on Eb as much as I want, but it will never be Eb dorian. Because the harmony is a Db major chord, the scale will always be Db major.
When you're in a diatonic context such as this, modes don't really work. Everything is heard in relation to the tonic, in this case Db, so everything will sound like a Db major scale.
Modes are not determined solely by the note the melody starts or ends on. Modes are how all 7 notes relate to a particular chord. Since all 7 of the modes you listed contain the same notes, over Db major they will all have exactly the same sound.
In order for them to be modal, either the harmony much change, or you have to use the modes in a parallel fashion (Db major, Db dorian, Db phrygian, etc), but this doesn't work in a strictly diatonic situation like this because it creates too much unexpected dissonance and therefore just sounds like wrong notes.
Guitar players are particularly succeptible to thinking that if you start on a different note of the scale, it's a different mode because too often modes are taught in conjunction with the 7 positions of a major scale on the neck. The patterns are nothing more than different positions of the same scale, rather than different modes. Harmony is the ultimate deciding factor in determining what scale/mode you will call a group of notes.
That reminds me of a discussion I see alot on the DMB boards:
"(Song name here) starts with a G chord, so it's in G"
I find myself banging my head against the monitor every time I see that shit.
Adam |
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Jamie M
Chatterbox
Canada
404 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2004 : 1:00:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
Modes are nice, but they don't exactly work that way.
Say I'm playing over a Db major chord. I can play Db major starting on and ending on F as much as I want, but it will never be F phrygian. I can start on and end on Eb as much as I want, but it will never be Eb dorian. Because the harmony is a Db major chord, the scale will always be Db major.
When you're in a diatonic context such as this, modes don't really work. Everything is heard in relation to the tonic, in this case Db, so everything will sound like a Db major scale.
Modes are not determined solely by the note the melody starts or ends on. Modes are how all 7 notes relate to a particular chord. Since all 7 of the modes you listed contain the same notes, over Db major they will all have exactly the same sound.
In order for them to be modal, either the harmony much change, or you have to use the modes in a parallel fashion (Db major, Db dorian, Db phrygian, etc), but this doesn't work in a strictly diatonic situation like this because it creates too much unexpected dissonance and therefore just sounds like wrong notes.
Guitar players are particularly succeptible to thinking that if you start on a different note of the scale, it's a different mode because too often modes are taught in conjunction with the 7 positions of a major scale on the neck. The patterns are nothing more than different positions of the same scale, rather than different modes. Harmony is the ultimate deciding factor in determining what scale/mode you will call a group of notes.
So basically you're saying that modes is an incredibly detailed topic that cannot be grasped simply through reading message board threads? |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 12:18:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamie M
So basically you're saying that modes is an incredibly detailed topic that cannot be grasped simply through reading message board threads?
Yes and no. They're something that needs a good deal of practical application and musical examples to understand, but at the same time they aren't really a complex thing, just a commonly misunderstood thing due to the way they are often presented in guitar books. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 2:58:35 PM
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| where'd you get that from? he gave a perfect explaination of modes, and that's all there is to it. |
death to false metal. |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 7:42:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
[quote]Harmony is the ultimate deciding factor in determining what scale/mode you will call a group of notes.
So are you ultimately saying that the chords within the key that you choose tend to dictate the patterns you can use and lead to a different "sound". I'm clueless on the textbook definitions of harmony/melody other than chords/lead respectively. Are there any straightforward examples readily available anywhere? |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Poparad
Try A Little Harder
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 9:22:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
[quote]Harmony is the ultimate deciding factor in determining what scale/mode you will call a group of notes.
So are you ultimately saying that the chords within the key that you choose tend to dictate the patterns you can use and lead to a different "sound". I'm clueless on the textbook definitions of harmony/melody other than chords/lead respectively. Are there any straightforward examples readily available anywhere?
Yes. Say you have a progression of Gmajor, Cmajor, Dmajor, Gmajor; or a I IV V I in G. That particular progression is so diatonic, that playing any scale other than G major over the whole progression will just sound wrong (pentatonics not included).
When progressions highly suggest, or even partially suggest that they all belong to one key, there isn't much of a choice as to what scale you can play.
When the progression becomes less complex, and more ambiguous, you can begin to take more liberty in your scale choices, but even then, the selection only broads from 1 possible scale, to 2 or 3 tops.
The most open progression you can have, which really isn't a progression, is just a single chord. Say Dm. There are some modal options, but even then, they have to be minor modes as it's a minor chord, so the choices are still limited.
Think of it this way. Say you have some text and you're trying to find pictures to match the text. If you have the word "Ball," there are a lot of possibilities. It could be a red ball, a blue ball, a basketball, a disco ball, etc. However, it still has to be a ball. A picture of a brick, while still a picture, won't work. This is like the single minor chord 'progression' I mentioned above. The most freedom, but you still have some limitations.
The next text is the phrase "red ball." Now you have to be a little more selective, as pictures of a blue ball or a yellow ball won't fit. This could be a progression of maybe two chords. Everything isn't spelled out in detail, but there is some specification.
If you had the phrase "red ball with a white stripe and a yellow star on it," your options are very limited as to what picture would match it. This is like the I IV V I progression, where there is only one thing that would work.
Lastly, say you had the phrase "red ball and a block of cheese." Now there are two unreleated things, and you're going to have to come up with two different pictures to cover it. This is like a progression that doesn't fit into one key. A progression like Cmajor, F#major would be like this. They don't fit in one key, or even in two closely related keys. You'll need two scales in order to cover the situation.
As for modes, they have their place, but they aren't the be all and end all to scale choices.
What I meant by harmony dicating the name for the mode was that too often modes are taught in conjuction with the different positions of the major scale on the guitar. This unfortunatley makes people think that if you play a major scale and you don't start on a root, you are playing a mode. This like taking a picture of a red ball and turning it sideways and saying it's a completely different picture. It's not; it's the same thing but at a different angle. Playing a major scale starting on any note is still the major scale.
Modes are like taking a ball and putting it different contexts. Take a normal ball (sorry for all the lame ball analogies). If you use it to play soccer, it's a soccer ball. If you use it to play basketball, it's the basketball. If you use it to play volleyball, it's a volleyball.
Likewise, if you take C major and play it over a Dm chord, then it's a mode. If you play it over an Fmajor chord, it's a different mode. Playing C major over Dm chord is going to be D dorian no matter what note you start or end on. What makes it a mode is how each of the seven notes sound in relation to the Dm chord. It has nothing to do with which note you begin or end on, rather, it's how all the notes together work in relation to a certain chord. |
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What to play?
