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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2004 : 12:15:07 PM
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Hey whats up?
Saturday, March 20th marks the year anniversary of the invasion of Iraq. The band I guest with, Duende, will be performing that night and we will be at the rally during the day to protest the oil war. There will be protests all over the world that day. And guess what, Dennis Kucinich will be in NYC!
Dennis Kucinich is the only national political leader who represents the peace movement. Before the war began Dennis Kucinich saw through the lies that fueled the Bush Administration's climate of fear and violence. He led the opposition to the war in Congress, and he remains one of the most credible voices within the Democratic Party when speaking about the need to bring our troops home. His position - US out, UN in - remains the only credible alternative to the current reality.
For these reasons, and for others, Dennis Kucinich has been invited to speak at one of the largest March 20th rallies, in New York City. Supporters of the Kucinich Campaign will be on hand there, and all over the country, to bring home the message: US out, UN in.
Hopefully taht means he will be there... See you there, I can't wait to see Dennis! |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2004 : 1:06:13 PM
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Don't forget he's the only candidate who'd set up a Department of Peace too. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see." Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!" cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2004 : 2:33:33 PM
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i don't understand. you're protesting the anniversary of the war? what can anyone do about that? from now on, march 20th is the anniversary. that's just it. |
death to false metal. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 09:37:42 AM
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We are protesting on that date to acheive the highest number of people involved. If I see one more friend die because of oil, I'm gonna lose it. The majority of america is brainwashed. That is the sad truth. Most of them don't know about why we are there, why people are being slughtered for no reason. they think, we'll it is protecting us. If we cause enough of a stir, it could possibly spark something in america. If the majority of america wants us out, I think it could happen. I mean Bush couldn't care less how many die, his pay check is bigger then ever. This is to show Kerry, the next president, not to send 40,000 more troops like he has planned.
this war is bullshit, and it must be stopped. That is my opinion
Anyway, one thing to think about, why would anyone running for president spend millions upon millions to get a job that only pays $300,000 a year and that carries the most responsibility in the world?
see ya in NYC!
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 10:28:13 AM
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i'd like to see some distinctive proof that it's for oil. to date, i haven't seen or heard anyone make the oil claim and back it up with anything. |
death to false metal. |
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 11:30:36 AM
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ok well of course that absolute proof is not released, of yet. But some facts are(the first ones are well known)
Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton from I believe 1992 until 2000, possibly 1994...
Halliburton acheived all oil for both wars assets without a single bid accepted from any other company...
there was a giant pipeline that was to stretch across the middle east, but one country stopped that, that country was Afganistan...
We planned on invading Iraq and Afganistan before 9/11...
Halliburton is STILL paying it's ex-CEO Dick Cheney 500,000 dollars a year in golden parachute cash.
More fun Halliburton facts: a Halliburton subsidiary used to provide tent cities for the Defense Department during the first Bush administration.
In the Clinton years, the contract was not renewed because audits showed that Halliburton was being, to put it diplomatically, less than efficient, with the gov't money it was collecting. Then, as soon as G.W. and Cheney took office, Halliburton got the tent city contract again.
On top of the Halliburton factor, USA Today reports that Cheney "persuaded Bush that there could be military benefits, such as space-based defense systems." This motivation was echoed by Rep. Tom Feeney (R-FL) who said last week on "Scarborough Country" that: "Somebody is going to dominate space. When they do, just like when the British dominated the naval part of our globe, established their empire, just like the United States has dominated the air superiority, ultimately, whoever is able to dominate space will be able to control the destiny of the entire Earth."
anyway, take in what you want...it will all be revealed one day. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 12:35:16 PM
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Why would anyone want to be president? That's one reason I have such a hard time voting for any candidate, just because if you're running for president how smart can you be? For the past fifty years all that happens is Presidents get torn apart by the media and the public and then you can't really do anything anyways. The last president that didn't have new assholes torn open by some party was Kennedy, and that's really just because he was assassinated.
How much has Kucinich raised and spent on his bid? |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see." Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!" cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 2:31:14 PM
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quote: Originally posted by dan p.
i'd like to see some distinctive proof that it's for oil. to date, i haven't seen or heard anyone make the oil claim and back it up with anything.
Well if you're looking for a signed document or something that says this is what it's about you won't ever find it. It's easy to see what US intrests are in the middle east though. Any government official will tell you that our intrest in the middle eats revolves around oil. The majority of the worlds oil supply lies there. So then if you consider the policies we have had in the region since WWII then it's pretty easy to see that we have tried to control the worlds oil supply.
Ok so now you take a look at this war. Reason given for goind in; WMD. However none were found and you have to wonder why Kuwait, Isreal, Iran, etc. where not worried about Iraq as a military threat. These are countries that have been attacked by Iraq and yet the were not worried about Iraq's WMD. The US however was sooo worried that Iraq was getting WMD and use them but the neighboring countries of which Iraq had the capability to attack did not.
Ok so then the US shifted it's reasons for going in to being liberation and democracy. This is a common theme the US has supposedly gone to war for. That an humanitarian intervention. However it's complete BS. Why weren't they concerned about the people of Iraq after laying down years of harsh sanctions that did litle more than kill thousands of people (mostly children). The fact is that the US could care less about humanitarian aid. Look at east timor and the genocide that went on there that we supported privatly by continueing aid to indonesia. Then this whole democracy thing is a farce. The people of Iraq have called for many times to elect the governing council. That however hasn't happened. The US appointed the council which is a council which will do what the US wants. How can we refuse elections and at the same time implement democracy. Either we let the people of Iraq choose and govern themselves or we don't.
So if you question motives then it should be easy to see that all given reasons for the war are BS. To me it's just a matter of putting 2+2 together. Dan said he hadn't seen any evidence for this war being about oil, but I think that there hasn't been anything to prove that this war is not about oil. Although I think this wasn't just purely about oil and only oil. We wanted a regime change. Not because Saddam was a brutal monster but because it's in our intrests to have a pro US regime in power there. Then there is the privitazation, war profitering, and what I think is maybe most important which is putting our latest form of global strategy in action. We have reserved the right to act unilaterally and do what we want with the world ingoring other countries. So to me there were lots of reasons for this war but none of them were the ones given.
Don't take my word on any of this though. Go find out the truth for yourself. Do your own research and reading. I just recomend starting with Bush in Babylon by Tariq Ali. Then read as much Chomksy as possible. A good place to start is http://www.zmag.org/chomskyarchive.htm If you want to find the truth you gotta look. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 2:42:37 PM
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quote: Originally posted by Arthen
Why would anyone want to be president?
How much has Kucinich raised and spent on his bid?
Exactly you gotta seriously question anyone who says I want to be your leader. I think Kucinich though has a pretty good record. As for why he wants to be president I'm thinking it's so he make a difference and help this country since that seems to be where his motives lie. I don't judge that by what he says but by his actions. I think he's pretty dedicated to helping people and working for the people. As far as his campaign spendings go I don't know the numbers but I know that his campaign has truly been grass roots and that he has far less money then the rest of the canidates. He makes a lot of money as a congress man. Don't quote me on the numbers but I believe he makes $600,000 a year or something yet he has under $200,000 in assets. Which means that he's not about being rich. He lives in a modest home and I believe he uses his money for charity and activism stuff. I think I heard that at one of his speeches but my memory isn't perfect. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 4:38:21 PM
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I don't understand how Kucinich can think that war is inevitable. The Iraqi War yes, but not "war" in general. As long as people live, there will be war.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see." Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!" cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 6:34:28 PM
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I don't use Real Player so I didn't listen to the audio, but I read the speech. It had nothing to do with war being inevitable. Sure you can disarm our country, but that doesn't stop people in two rivaling nations from killing each other.
There will always be one group of people, that wants to kill another group of people. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see." Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!" cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 7:43:33 PM
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Well the audio one is more about what you're talking about. But to give a general overview of the speech let's just say that he talks aboout how people have dreams. i.e. Someone has a dream to become a doctor and someone tells them oh come on 8 years of school yada yada you can't do that. He talks about how people are always shooting down our dreams and whatnot, but a person goes about accomplishing things by moving past that. So he relates that to the peace movement and talks about how peace is a possibility. That it is a goal that should be worked for. That's the gist of it.
Basically it can be done cause everythings possible. It won't come about from wishing and hoping though. I think it's time that people quit thinking of peace as impossible and work towards it. The only reason I believe the peace movement hasn't one is because too many people belive it can't be done. Yet everyone wants world peace (maybe there are a few exceptions). It's going to take re-education and a large change in conciousness, but it is possible to have world peace. It's up to the people to decide that they are not going to support the philosophies of war and philosophies that have dominated men over last thousands of years. The thought process that says there can never be peace has to be elimnated. Maybe not in out lifetime but sometime and it needs to start now. Anyway those are my thoughts Dennis might say it a little clearer. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 9:46:03 PM
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On a semi-related note...
Remember the episode of The X-Files where Mulder basically gets a genie, and one of his wishes he uses for world peace. Every single person is gone.
You can't have peace without changing people's beliefs, and people generally don't like to change those, and are willing to die to keep them the same. Which leads to more death and war. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see." Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!" cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2004 : 11:56:03 PM
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world peace is never going to happen. i think it's time we all accept that basic reality.
and the oil things. that's fine. as long as you have a reason. |
death to false metal. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 1:46:56 PM
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quote: Originally posted by dan p.
i'd like to see some distinctive proof that it's for oil. to date, i haven't seen or heard anyone make the oil claim and back it up with anything.
I haven't seen much to support the War for Oil argument, either. Here's what I think the invasion of Iraq was all about:
After Desert Storm, the United Nations passed many resolutions designed to ensure that Iraq would not pose a threat to international peace and security. Over a year ago, George W.'s administration cited Saddam Hussein's defiance of those resolutions as a major reason for the the war we are now in.
Specifically, the following resolutions were passed by the UN and defied by Saddam Hussein:
UNSCR 678 - November 29, 1990 * Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq's illegal invasion of Kuwait) "and all subsequent relevant resolutions." * Authorizes UN Member States "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area."
UNSCR 686 - March 2, 1991 * Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War. * Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War. * Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait.
UNSCR 687 - April 3, 1991 * Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities." * Iraq must "unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material" or any research, development or manufacturing facilities. * Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq.
UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991 * "Condemns" repression of Iraqi civilian population, "the consequences of which threaten international peace and security." * Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population. * Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.
UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991 * "Condemns" Iraq's "serious violation" of UNSCR 687. * "Further condemns" Iraq's noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. * Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991 * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994 * "Condemns" Iraq's recent military deployments toward Kuwait. * Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq. * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors. * Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.
UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996 * Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA. * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996 * "Deplores" Iraq's refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq's "clear violations" of previous UN resolutions. * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997 * "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "clear and flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060. * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access. * Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997 * "Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060. * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access. * Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.
UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997 * "Condemns the continued violations by Iraq" of previous UN resolutions, including its "implicit threat to the safety of" aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment. * Reaffirms Iraq's responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors. * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998 * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the "severest consequences for Iraq.
UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998 * "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with" UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes "a totally unacceptable contravention" of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154. * Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.
UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998 * "Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation" with UN inspectors as "a flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions. * Iraq must provide "immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspectors.
UNSCR 1284 - December 17, 1999 * Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM). * Iraq must allow UNMOVIC "immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access" to Iraqi officials and facilities. * Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners. * Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.
November 8, 2002, the UN passed Resolution 1441 by a unanimous vote. The purpose of that resolution was to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. Iraq had already been found guilty of material breach of its obligations, stretching back over 16 previous resolutions and 12 years.
Resolution 1441 gave Iraq one last chance, one last chance to come into compliance or to face serious consequences. According to Colin Powell, no council member present in voting on that day had any allusions about the nature and intent of the resolution or what serious consequences meant if Iraq did not comply. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2004 : 7:22:49 PM
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Uhm Tericee I hope you realize (and you probably do) that pretty much everyone but britian and the US was against us going in to Iraq and we acted without the UN's approval. That is because they thought that there wasn't enough to support the theory that Iraq had WMD. This whole thing about Iraq not complying with resoloutions is ridiculous. We broke international law by attacking Iraq. This was a pre-emptive strike (funny that hitler's reason for the invasion of poland was for the saftey of germany) that was not sanctioned by the UN and the UN security council did not approve of it.
Then let's be honest here why does the US care about the middle east? Hmm could it be oil? What I'm saying is it doesn't add up that we are scared terribly by Iraq's WMD program when they don't have the capibilty to attack us with them from and ICBM. The countries however that Iraq has in the past attacked and has the capability to attack were however not concerned. I wish I had my world affairs compendum journal here right now so I could quote this guy. He basically says (and he's a goverment official [secretary of something]) that we should be frank. That our major intrest in the middle east is oil and our policies revovle around those intrests. If you don't think this war wasn't about oil then you might want to research it a little bit. Once again everyone who wants to know more about this war should read Bush in Babylon by Tariq Ali. |
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 06:36:01 AM
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I stayed away from this thread because I am just not interested in defending why I was/am against this war.
For those of you like me, who would like to go to NY but can't there's a link to protest without going there.
VoteNoWar.org
Just for the record, I am probably not voting for a President in the next election because I dislike both Kerry and Bush and I won't vote for Kerry just to get Bush out of office. Damn I hate not having someone I really want to vote for run for office! |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 11:23:05 AM
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Watch for a Libertarian (or other third party) candidate. It won't keep Bush or Kerry from winning, but at least you'll have done your part!
There is a list of third party candidates at http://www.politics1.com/p2004.htm that's kinds of interesting.
You could always write in Kucinich too...
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PJK
Alien Abductee
USA
4159 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 3:18:24 PM
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ah, good ideas Teri! I just in all honesty can't vote for someone I don't support. I will look into the other parties. Hopefully there is someone there I could support even though they won't win. If not Kucinich will be "my man." I would have voted for him if he got the Democratic nomination. There are some things I am not sure I agree with but he is the only one I feel is running to serve the public and not his own special interests. |
"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 11:52:37 AM
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I'd say damn near 100 percent of the country uses oil in some shape and form. Now, a large minority of that figure doesn't want to drill for oil in Alaska. Where do we get the oil?
I had a good enjoyment of the irony during the protests leading up to the war. You have thousands and thousands of people traveling to major cities, like San Francisco, NY, etc. And how do they get there? They use oil. Then, when they get there, they hold signs that say no war for oil. You can't protest something, while contributing to the cause at the same time. That's being hypocritcal.
And on a ligher note, Flamin' Moe. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see." Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!" cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 1:10:21 PM
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Very true Arthen. It always gets me when people start talking about how bad the whole oil situation is then they get in there suburban to drive home. I mean I don't think it's wrong to use oil and that it's not nice to have cars for road trips, but the way we use cars and the amount we use them is terrible. We just need to end the reliance on cars for everyday life as much as possible. I totally agree though Arthen the first thing you can do is to stop buying gas and driving if you want to help out. |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 2:53:17 PM
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i hate walking. |
death to false metal. |
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Zachmozach
Fluffy-Esque
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 4:17:31 PM
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I prefer riding my bike. Actually I can get places faster here in portland on my bike than in a car for the most part. |
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tericee
Alien Abductee
USA
2579 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2004 : 05:17:20 AM
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For what it's worth: Major Sources of U.S. Petroleum Imports, 2001 (from DOE.gov) (all volumes in million barrels per day)
Total Crude Refined Percentage
Canada 1.83 1.36 0.47 18.37%
Saudi Arabia 1.66 1.61 0.05 16.67%
Venezuela 1.55 1.29 0.26 15.56%
Mexico 1.44 1.39 0.05 14.46%
Nigeria 0.89 0.84 0.04 8.94%
Iraq 0.8 0.8 0 8.03%
Norway 0.34 0.28 0.06 3.41%
Angola 0.33 0.32 0.01 3.31%
United Kingdom 0.32 0.24 0.08 3.21%
Algeria 0.28 0.01 0.27 2.81%
Virgin Islands 0.27 0 0.27 2.71%
Kuwait 0.25 0.23 0.01 2.51%
Total Imports 9.96 8.37 1.57 100.00%
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rubylith
Fluffy-Esque
1915 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 09:47:18 AM
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so did anyone go? It was great a lot of people showed up, I heard 100,000? It was great to see Kucinich! |
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