| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 2:44:46 PM
This folder never seems to get much action, so I figure I'll drop another post in here.
I've been playing guitar for several years now, never took a lesson...just kinda figured out stuff from tabs and the occaisional book. I have a couple books that cover music theory, with specific reference to guitar.
That said, I don't feel like I ever make any progress. I find myself constantly playing the same runs and the pentatonic scale with blues notes thrown in. It's exceedingly boring.
The problem is, I never understand what the hell people in the music books are talking about. I'm extremely analytical, and when two books describe the same thing two different ways, I get frustrated easily. I'm trying to find ways to get different sounds out of the guitar, but I always end up going back to the I-IV-V crap. I really don't understand the concept of modes and scales. I mean, yeah...I can tell you the notes in any major/minor scale, but I don't understand the purpose of modes if they simply contain the same notes with a different starting point. I mean, it doesn't forbid you from going down into the lower octave and playing the notes you would have anyway (if that makes sense).
I continually struggle with trying to find ways to get different sounds out. Manual dexterity isn't really my problem, it's just that I never know what notes/chords to play. If someone said "play something spanish sounding", I'd have to dig through my brain and come up with a song that I already know that sounds that way. I'd really like to be able to have a feel for what notes will sound what way, but I need a foundation to start basing my knowledge on.
Seemingly simple things such as 4/4 time vs. 3/4 time are a mystery to me. Yeah, I know that "four beats per measure, and each note is a quarter note"...great. No idea wtf a quarter note is or a beat, or a measure for that matter. Yeah, I understand that a measure divides music up, but who decides where it goes? I need details! lol
Has anyone else had this type difficulty and overcome it? I need to find a book that explains it all from an entirely different perspective I guess.
Thanks,
~James |
| 41 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Poparad |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 11:12:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
Obviously C major is an alternative, but even when I use C major over that, some notes sound really ugly at certain points. I don't know why. I want to know why =). C maj Pent. sounds fine, with extremely rare exceptions but it's obviously quite boring.
Not every note in a scale sounds good as a note to land on, and you are probably landing on some of these sour notes when playing.
Take a simple example of the C major scale over a C major chord. There are 7 notes to choose from, and all will work over the chord, but some sound better than others to end on.
The notes of the C major triad, C E G, always sound good to land on because, well, they are the chord. The other notes of the scale all have some degree of dissonance to them, but they all have varying degrees.
A note like D or A over the C major chord doesn't sound too bad. However, try ending a phrase on an F natural and you're bound to wince. (This is also why C major pentatonic is easier to use and sound good, because it ommits the note F, as well as B which can sometimes sound dissonant, leaving only chord tones C E and G, and the two consonant notes D and A).
Each note of the scale, and any scale for that matter, has a certain sound against a chord, and learning what these are is just a matter of practice.
At first is may seem like a big task, but there are only a total of 12 notes you can play over a chord, and fundamentally there are only three types of chord sounds (Major, minor, and dominant).
Here is a listing of (in my opinion) how each of the 12 chromatic notes sounds against each of the three chord types:
Cmajor:
1 - Chord tone, thus consonant
b2 - This can be very dissonant, and often sounds weird even as a passing tone
2 - Consonant note, you can sit on this one if you want
b3 - A dissonant note, not to be sat on, and really only used when going up to the major third to give a blues sound to the line
4 - very dissonant note. You can use it in a scalar passage, but avoid landing on it at all costs
#4 - a wonderful alternative to the natural 4. This is a nice note to land on. May sound a little wierd on just plain Cmajor, but it works fine on Cmaj7.
5 - Chord tone
b6 - A somwhat dissonant note, but it can actually be used to good effect. I like to apreggiate C major and add the b6 on top. (C E G Ab G E G) Very cool sound
6 - Very cosonant note. You can land on it and sit if you want
b7 - a dissonant note against Cmaj7, but on plain Cmajor, you might be able to get away with it.
7 - A chord tone on Cmajor7. It may sound a little off on plain C major, as it'll sound like it wants to resolve to the root.
C7 (dominant 7) - dissonance is much more usable on this chord due to it's unstable nature. Pretty much natural 7 is the only interval you can't use successfully.
R - Chord tone
b2 - a dissonant note, but part of C7b9, or the V to i tonality.
2 - consonant note
b3 - blue note, works well against the chord
3 - chord tone
4 - note the greatest thing to sit on, but you can use it in a scale just fine. The 4th over a dominant chord isn't as bad as the 4th over a major7 chord.
#4 - very hip note. Creates the 'lydian dominant' sound
5 - chord tone
b6 - dissonant, but very usable
6 - consonant note
b7 - chord tone
7 - avoid this entirely. Natural 7 on a dominant chord just sounds horrible, unless it's part of a chromatic line that happens to include it (i.e. A Bb B C C# D)
Cminor (Cminor7)
R - chord tone
b2 - unusual in most cases, but can be used. This is the characteristic note of the phrygian mode
2 - consonant note
b3 - chord tone
3 - this is very dissonant and really doesn't work too well since the b3 is an essential part of the chord.
4 - this is a very usuable note, as opposed to domianant to some degree and major to a high degree
#4 - uncommon, but usuable. May sound a little weird at first
5 - chord tone
b6 - this is part of the natural minor scale. Sometimes it can sound off, but if the progression is very much aeolian, then it sounds perfectly fine.
6 - the caracteristic note of dorian. A very sweet note that you can sit on if you wish.
b7 - chord tone
7 - works in some situations. Cminor(maj7) is a cool sound to give a try at. Important note of both the melodic and harmonic minor scales.
Now, to apply this to a scale, figure out what the notes of the scale are against the chord:
Example: C major scale against C major
The numbers used above are written as if the major scale is the default position for them. I.E., 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 in C would be C D E F G A B C. 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 would be C D Eb F G Ab Bb. (The degrees with flats (b) infront of them are lowered from the major scale).
So, by comparing each interval of the scale against the chord, you can see how it sounds. This is something to be practiced so that you don't need to think about it, but rather, intuitively do it. This comes by lots of use and practice, but in the beginning it helps to think about it so later you don't have to.
Let's take another example. Let's stay in the key of C. In fact, let's make a small progression here (taken from CPPJames):
C F G Am
Ok, we already did the Cmajor example so let's go to the F chord.
The notes of the C major scale, rewritten to start on F are:
F G A B C D E F
Now, compare that to the F major scale:
F G A Bb C D E F
The only difference is that the Bb is raised to a B natural (a #4). So numerically, it is:
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
So if you go back up to the list of how each interval sounds against a major chord, then you will know what each of these degrees will sound like.
Let's go on to the next chord, Gmajor. The notes we'll be using from C major written starting on G:
G A B C D E F G
The notes of G major for comparison:
G A B C D E F# G
The only difference is that the F# has been lowered to an F natural. Numerically:
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
One important thing to note first: this is built from the 5th degree of C major, so it is a dominant chord. Also, note that the 7th of G is F natural, an interval of a minor 7th. The listing of Major chords is for chords that have a major 7th. If the chord were G B D F#, then it would be Gmajor7. However, in this case it's G B D F, and is G7 (a dominant7 chord). So, use the listing for 'dominant' rather than 'major' when looking up how each note will sound against the chord. The only real difference is that you can get away with a lot more dissonance on a dom7 chord than you can on a maj7 chord.
Lastly, let's check out Am7. The notes of Cmajor written starting on A:
A B C D E F G
The notes of A major:
A B C# D E F# G#
The differences are that the 3rd, 6th, and 7th are lowered:
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Now, since Am is a minor chord, look up these 7 numbers in the 'minor' listing of how each interval sounds.
This is a really analytic way of looking at things, but that's how you said you like to see things. This will also give you a very clear idea of how any possible note will sound against a chord. In reality, it's more of an intuition thing of knowing the sound of the scales well enough rather than a thing you have to think about.
However, understanding it on this level is a good thing, as you can alter scales to your liking to make them sound better.
For example, the Cmajor scale against a Cmajor chord has a really dissonant note: F (the 4th degree). But, if you look down one more on the list to #4, you'll see it says it's a very good note to land on.
So, changing the note F to F# in the scale you get: C D E F# G A B C. Now there are (according to the list) no strongly dissonant notes; instead they are all fairly consonant.
This is one way to use the scale to play lines that work well over a chord.
And also, we have just done modes. I changed C Ionian to C lydian because of the sound of that one note. Modes are really nothing more than altering a note or two to get a different, preferred sound over a chord.
|
| CPPJames |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 4:26:30 PM
Fair enough. I just wish I could take a simple chord progression, hell...even one that I made up that was blatently in a particular key, such as: C F G Am F G C or something. Then I'd like to record that (as boring as it might be) and know some "guaranteed to sound good" progressions. Obviously C major is an alternative, but even when I use C major over that, some notes sound really ugly at certain points. I don't know why. I want to know why =). C maj Pent. sounds fine, with extremely rare exceptions but it's obviously quite boring. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 07/20/2004 : 1:58:44 PM
picasso could paint realistically, and he know what he was doing when he painted a woman with body parts all over the place. to break rules effectively you need to know them. to just break rules you don't know is being ignorant and self-indulgent. |
| Mave Datthews 85 |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 1:35:06 PM
since i'm lazy, i didn't read the entire thread, but as for your last post - i know what you mean. just takes time and practice, that's about all i can say; except that it DOES pay to take lessons. not everyone can teach themselves guitar. i took lessons for a couple years, and it definitely helped. if nothing else, it gives you a better understanding of how things work, and how theory comes together. i didn't practice as much as i should've (which is my own fault), but still, it wasn't like i walked away with nothing.
of course, a lot of it depends on your teacher. mine was really good, pretty cool guy. in fact James, you probably live pretty close to him. if you're going down Sweet Home rd. and go through Sheridan, he's in that neighborhood. the street's called Buckeye, and his name is Mike Moser. really nice guy, he'll teach you anything, and if there's a certain song you wanna learn that you can't find good tabs for, just bring in a CD - he'll play the song to get an understanding of it, then write it down and walk you through it. (he's been playing for a veeerry long time and is DAMN good at what he does.)
lemme know later if you want his number. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 11:00:46 AM
That's basically where I'm coming from. I want to know what notes are pretty much guaranteed to sound "right", as boring as it might be. I want to learn theory so I'll have a better idea of where the note I hear in my head is on the fret board...and what notes are *likely* to sound good in certain contexts.
At this point, I'm trying to find examples of relatively popular songs and what types of progressions would work well over them. I've found a couple...but nothing great yet. I tried throwing in a Dave album and playing over it, but he changes keys so often that by the TIMe I found something that sounded alright, he was already somewhere else entirely. |
| JemezFoodPeople |
Posted - 07/14/2004 : 03:06:46 AM
to break the rules ( jazz), you must first know what the rules are (theory) so that you can break them. Anybody agree?
The more i learn about theory, the more i try to act around it so that i learn what riffs sound like when they are unconventional. then i learn to just let loose without being contricted to a scale or mode. |
| Jay |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 4:34:25 PM
Ed Zachary |
| Erich |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 4:13:27 PM
i know what youre saying. and when it comes to blues and jazz, conventional theory is worthless.
theory is the logical side of the brain while the creative side is whats supposed to be making music. so its obvious that it can only help you so much if youre the type that wants to sit down and jam from the inside and not from theoretical stuffs |
| Jay |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 3:24:44 PM
Well, I'm trying to learn theory, I was only half serious when I said that bit about inexplicable music...It's good to learn theory, I think every serious musician needs to, anyway, at some point in life...I just think that the musician creates music, then theory is there to explain it...It's sorta complicated, but oh well...When writing music, like actually composing a song, it's obvious that theory is helpful, especially if you're doing extra tracks and whatnot, and it's even more helpful if you're fingerpicking a bass part. I'm not against learning it, I'm just a lazy bastard... |
| Erich |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 01:10:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jay
Kelly Joe Phelps said that learning theory is only to help you EXPLAIN what you just played. Music is something that is felt and comes from the soul and the heart. When you're playing (as apposed to "practice which is really just playing anyway), especially with other people, just let it flow. Don't think, "Well god damn me and a box of saltines I can throw in this Locrian diminished 7 g minor blues note up here on the eigth fret there and make it sound sort industrial." Just play. I find that through playing enough and experimenting, you learn the fretboard and how each note will sound, and you make associations with each note and when to use certain notes and what not...Don't worry about what it IS exactly, just have fun. Then, after you're done, you'll be able to explain what you played. I hope this all makes sense. Actually, this is just my excuse for not learning all of this...Because frankly, I want to make inexplicable music.
Im going to play off what you just said, but from two different angles.
I agree almost completely with the fact that you cant sit there and think "oh, this shouldnt happen acording to theory". there are times you say fuck theory and play whats in your heart. When the instrument is playing you, you know youre doing something right, regardless of theory.
But to not learn it in order to make your music inexplicable seems backwards. all music can be explained, just some doesnt follow convention. My personal opinion: Its easier to break the rules when you know them. I say, strive to break convention, strive to push the bounderies of the instrument... but let me tell you its a lot easier to find ways of doing things different when you know the ways of doing them "proper".
I decided to learn theory this week when i finaly cracked under the weight of what was in my head. Because i never really sat and learned how to play songs and just played the few chords and, half songs, and blues scales i knew over and over again, I never progressed. this is my way of allowing the music thats naturaly in my head to be explained so i can translate it to the guitar. For me its lik having a symphony in my head but not knowing how to write musical notation or play a classical instrument, you know what i mean?
but we all do it differently. I commend some for learning without theory or teachings or things like that, but im happily over my insecurity that learning theory isnt an implication that i have no natural gift. |
| Jay |
Posted - 07/11/2004 : 12:37:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
quote:
Originally posted by rubylith
say you are in Gmaj7
Regarding the scale/chords you provided though, wouldn't a song composed of only 7th chords sound a little weird? I can't really try it, as I don't have my guitar here...so I guess I really wouldn't know, heh.
I think you are forgetting nearly every three chord blues progression, ever...E7, A7, B7...Blah blah...You tell me what key you're in, I'll try to play along.
Kelly Joe Phelps said that learning theory is only to help you EXPLAIN what you just played. Music is something that is felt and comes from the soul and the heart. When you're playing (as apposed to "practice which is really just playing anyway), especially with other people, just let it flow. Don't think, "Well god damn me and a box of saltines I can throw in this Locrian diminished 7 g minor blues note up here on the eigth fret there and make it sound sort industrial." Just play. I find that through playing enough and experimenting, you learn the fretboard and how each note will sound, and you make associations with each note and when to use certain notes and what not...Don't worry about what it IS exactly, just have fun. Then, after you're done, you'll be able to explain what you played. I hope this all makes sense. Actually, this is just my excuse for not learning all of this...Because frankly, I want to make inexplicable music. |
| Erich |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 01:45:41 AM
here's an easy way of thinking about modes. mind you i just learnt about modes two days ago, so ive no extensive knowledge, but i picked up on it pretty fast.
Tell me O Octopus, I begs,
Is those things arms, or is they legs?
I marval at thee, Octopus,
But if I were thou, I'd call me "us"
now think about this poem in dorian mode.
Me O Octopus, I begs is
Those things arms or is they legs? I
Marvel at thee, Octopus, but
If I were thou I'd call me "us". [Tell]
phrygian...
O Octopus, I begs is those
Things arms or is they legs? I marvel
At thee, Octopus but if
I were thou I'd call me "us". [Tell me]
====
Notice how the resolve is different, since youre shifting it. the poem has the same words, but by starting on a different word youve changed the flow. thats modal. you changed what note leaves you hanging for that resolution.
try this. play an F# Locrian scale, which is the 7th mode of Gmaj. basicaly, start a Gmaj scale on the 2nd fret of the low E, and end it on its first octave. You notice how you can get a kind of eastern/indian sound to it? you cant really do that with the 1st (major) mode.
=======================================
I also recomend checking out the CAGED method of dissecting the fretboard. Once it clicks, you'll unlock the guitar that much more. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 4:34:58 PM
i don't know what he means by that. ignore it. unless maybe he means "while a gmaj7 chord is sounded." but if so, that's the worst possible way to say it. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 3:57:35 PM
I'm 90% certain that a semitone = a half step and a tone = a full step. Anything else, I'm 0% certain ;-).
Going with the assumption that there's no key "Gmaj7"...then what does "Say you're in Gmaj7" mean? Argh, the pain, the agony, the confusion. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 3:33:31 PM
there is no gmaj7 key. gmaj7 is a chord. the tonic 7th in g major, a g major chord with the 7th scale degree (#f) added on. also, i thought that semitones were different from half steps, with two semitones in a half step. i could be wrong about that, though. |
| Mave Datthews 85 |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 3:13:18 PM
duuuuuhhhhh i just reed da taaaabs. uhhuhhuh... huh.  |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 2:18:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rubylith
say you are in Gmaj7
I didn't realize Gmaj7 was a key. That's another thing I don't understand. Are there 24 keys or are there infinitely more? It seems like different books have different approaches on this. Regarding the scale/chords you provided though, wouldn't a song composed of only 7th chords sound a little weird? I can't really try it, as I don't have my guitar here...so I guess I really wouldn't know, heh. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 2:07:40 PM
I think that my biggest problem is my tendency to look at things as black and white. I always find myself needing to know *why* it works, before I even care if it does work at all. Basically, my mind is telling me...learn the guitar. Know every note, know what sounds good when, learn to improvise effectively, know all the hardware...and then play.
I'll be sitting there just playing notes over a song that's on the radio or something like that, and a note will jump out at me as awful or really solid, and I immediately want to know why. I think I'm a little too anal about it all.
From TIMe to TIMe I find myself wanting to play something that sounds spanish, or sounds eastern, or sounds jazzy...and I sit there and stare blankly. I guess that's the type of thing I wish I had a foundation in. I've always wanted to figure out the way things work, and then I figured my improv would come out of that foundation. Currently they're both remarkably poor  . |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 1:55:33 PM
CPP James, Know thy fretboard. Yes learn the modes and all so you know the fretboard and the mode patterns as well. Then if you have a piano try this out. Go sit down and play intervals and just listen to them. Listen to the disonance of a flat 9th. Then listen for the consonance of a flat 9th. Just cause something has a dissonant tone doesn't mean that is bad. Dissonance sounds good too. Free your mind from thinking in the terms of disonance is bad. Sing the intervals too in ascending and descending order. This should help you to train your ear. Practice interval playing on the guitar as well. Now turn on some music that you don't know the music to. Something you don't know what key it's in. Now jam with it. Figure out what sounds good with it. You might figure out that you are in a certain key you might not it doesn't matter as long as you're grooving with it. See you're improvising and you don't have to think about keys and modal stuff or anything huh.
That's basically what I get from you're question is you're asking what should I play when I improvise or what can I play to make it sound good. Now to take it from the language approach when you asked that question you improvised it. You weren't thinking about conjunctions and prepostions and the like. You just asked a question. I think the easiest thing is to do the same with music. You don't have to think when you play. You build up you're vocabulary by internalizing info so that you don't have to think when you play. Just learn your fretboard and get a book like a great one is Joe Pass' Jazz lines book. It might be called Joe Pass on guitar or something. Play his lines. Learn some of them. Then start making your own. You can do this with any guitarist or guitar book like that with lines. Just work on your vocab so you know what sounds you are playing. Just jam with no limits or a while though and go by sound. Medidtate before you play too that's a huge help. Release the fear of playing wrong notes when you meditate. That's about all I can offer. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 1:51:53 PM
CPP James, Know thy fretboard. Yes learn the modes and all so you know the fretboard and the mode patterns as well. Then if you have a piano try this out. Go sit down and play intervals and just listen to them. Listen to the disonance of a flat 9th. Then listen for the consonance of a flat 9th. Just cause something has a dissonant tone doesn't mean that is bad. Dissonance sounds good too. Free your mind from thinking in the terms of disonance is bad. Sing the intervals too in ascending and descending order. This should help you to train your ear. Practice interval playing on the guitar as well. Now turn on some music that you don't know the music to. Something you don't know what key it's in. Now jam with it. Figure out what sounds good with it. You might figure out that you are in a certain key you might not it doesn't matter as long as you're grooving with it. See you're improvising and you don't have to think about keys and modal stuff or anything huh.
That's basically what I get from you're question is you're asking what should I play when I improvise or what can I play to make it sound good. Now to take it from the language approach when you asked that question you improvised it. You weren't thinking about conjunctions and prepostions and the like. You just asked a question. I think the easiest thing is to do the same with music. You don't have to think when you play. You build up you're vocabulary by internalizing info so that you don't have to think when you play. Just learn your fretboard and get a book like a great one is Joe Pass' Jazz lines book. It might be called Joe Pass on guitar or something. Play his lines. Learn some of them. Then start making your own. You can do this with any guitarist or guitar book like that with lines. Just work on your vocab so you know what sounds you are playing. Just jam with no limits or a while though and go by sound. Medidtate before you play too that's a huge help. Release the fear of playing wrong notes when you meditate. That's about all I can offer. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 10:14:26 AM
Alright, well...I'm basically going to try and wipe my brain clean of any knowledge I've gathered and start from scratch, as I feel my previous approaches were errant.
Assume that I have extremely basic knowledge. I can play any "standard" chord...major/minor, more common 7ths, and that's basically it. Assume that I know all of the major scales and obviously the relative minors.
What's a good starting point with only those basic facts to build on? Learning finger positions and modes and just practicing the hell out of them?
I think what's thrown me for a long time is the fact that within a key, certain notes can sound dissonant over chords, even though nothing's out of key. I find myself "fearing" that errant note and just sticking to the pentatonic, not even playing the full major scale. |
| Poparad |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 03:39:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
Alright, basically I have a pretty solid grasp on the major scale. I can name all the notes in any major scale and the "standard" chords built on those notes. When it comes to 7ths and 9ths, I get a bit lost in terminology. I understand that the chords are built essentially, by starting on that note within the key and taking the first, third and fifth notes.
for 7ths, just continue up another third, so it's R 3 5 7. Ditto for 9ths: R 3 5 7 9. And so on up until 13th chords. After the 13th, you end up at the root again.
Examples:
Cmaj7 - C E G B
Cmaj9 - C E G B D
Cmaj13 - C E G B D F A
Cmaj13(#11) - C E G B D F# A
C7 - C E G Bb
C9 - C E G Bb D
C13 - C E G Bb D F A
Cm7 - C Eb G Bb
Cm9 - C Eb G Bb D
Cm11 - C Eb G Bb D F
etc...
quote:
I understand that the relative minor scale contains the same notes (i.e. Em/G, Am/C). THAT doesn't make sense to me. If it has the same notes and essentially the same chords, why does it sound different? Is it just the chords you "focus" on?
This is exactly it: it's the chords you focus on. This is the only thing that distinguishes one mode from another, and as you can tell, it's not a fairly strong distinction, so there is often a lot of ambiguity.
An exception is that minor "keys" (as opposed to minor modes) have some different harmony when you start using harmonic or melodic minor scales to derrive the chords. For example, Em Am B7 Em is a i iv V i in the key of Em, but B7 is not found in the relative major of G. It's not found in the E natural minor scale, but when you start using harmonic minor, you get new chords that sound different.
However, very little popular music of the last 20-30 years actually uses harmonic minor. Most things are just modal an use a natural minor, and thus have all the same chords as G major.
quote:
I guess I have two ultimate goals here.
1.) I want to have a fundamental understanding of what certain notes will sound like in certain contexts, so that if I hear it in my head, I'll have a good idea of what that note might be.
2.) I want to know what chord progression someone is playing and be able to figure out the key or whatever method necessary to play over it and have it sound good.
What's the best approach? lol
James
1.) Scales are just a way to reduce the 12 possible notes you could play over a chord down to a certian 'flavor' or 'color' of notes. There is usually more than one option for a certain kind of chord, but context often determines which one you can use. The best advice I have is to practice playing over Major chord vamps, minor chord vamps, and dominant chord vamps and practicing different scales to hear what each of the 12 notes sounds like against each chord. There is a recent thread at the Harmony Central forum where I wrote out what each of the 12 notes sounds like against those 3 main types of chords. You might be interested in checking that out.
2.) This is just a matter of really knowing scales, and chord scales (chord scales are what you get when you build a chord off each scale degree; in other words, all 7 chords generated in a scale). I don't just mean knowing it where you can recall it if you sit there and think about it for a second. Really knowing it so you can use this stuff on the fly without having to stop and calculate anything in your head.
If you had to divide 2035 by 35, you probably have to sit down and think about it, but you could get it eventually. However, if you had to add 2+2, you would instantly know it's 4, not because you calculated it, but because you just know that's the answer and you can recall it without having to think about it. Scales should be the same way. They should be something that you know so well that you don't need to do any mental processing before you know what it is you need to play. They should just pop up into your head immediatly. Using them and practicing them and gaining experience with them is the best way to go about this.
As for figuring out progressions, the better you know chord scales, the quicker you are at figuring out what key something is in. Most music is very diatonic and stays within one key, so if you hear 3 chords, then that narrows down the possibilites quickly to just 1 or 2 possible keys, and logic will probably reduce that down to the right one. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 4:31:53 PM
Alright, basically I have a pretty solid grasp on the major scale. I can name all the notes in any major scale and the "standard" chords built on those notes. When it comes to 7ths and 9ths, I get a bit lost in terminology. I understand that the chords are built essentially, by starting on that note within the key and taking the first, third and fifth notes.
I understand that the relative minor scale contains the same notes (i.e. Em/G, Am/C). THAT doesn't make sense to me. If it has the same notes and essentially the same chords, why does it sound different? Is it just the chords you "focus" on?
I guess I have two ultimate goals here.
1.) I want to have a fundamental understanding of what certain notes will sound like in certain contexts, so that if I hear it in my head, I'll have a good idea of what that note might be.
2.) I want to know what chord progression someone is playing and be able to figure out the key or whatever method necessary to play over it and have it sound good.
What's the best approach? lol
James |
| Poparad |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 3:56:53 PM
Head on over to the Harmony Central forums (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/index.php?s=) and check out the Lesson Loft. There are a lot of helpful people there who can answer questions for you.
Personally, I'd recommend studying very basic theory here. Learn the major scale and the chords made from it, and really know it. Don't just learn it on a superficial level, but know it well enough to play it anywhere on the guitar, whenever you want, and know how it works. A basic study of how chords are built (major, minor, 7th chords, 9th chord) and how scales relate to them will also answer most of your questions. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 5:12:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
Seemingly simple things such as 4/4 time vs. 3/4 time are a mystery to me. Yeah, I know that "four beats per measure, and each note is a quarter note"...great. No idea wtf a quarter note is or a beat, or a measure for that matter. Yeah, I understand that a measure divides music up, but who decides where it goes? I need details!
that's not exactly how it works. sometimes it turns out that way, sometimes it doesn't. for instance, no one would count 6/8 time in terms 6 beats, because the 8th doesn't get the beat. the dotted quarter does. 6/8, generally speaking, has 2 beats, and 3 eights are in each beat. 1 2 3, 2 2 3. sometimes in a waltz, you would count 3/4 in one beat.
a quarter note by itself doesn't really mean anything unless you put it in terms of meter. but the relationship between all note values remains constant no matter what the meter. basically, there's a whole note. two half notes can cover as much of the pulse as one whole. two quarter notes can cover the same amount of pulse as one half note. 4 quarters=1 whole. two 8th notes can cover the space of one quarter. four 8ths=half note. sixteen 8ths=whole note. this pattern continues.
dots next to a note give the note it's on an additional half of that note's duration. so a dotted quarter would last one and a half beats in normal x/4 time. the quarter getting being worth one and the dot being worth half of one.
hope that helped. if not sorry. i'm not a teacher yet. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 4:36:51 PM
CPPJames I'll give a try at helping you to get some ideas of what you could play over this to make it interesting. First let's take the E-minor or Aeolian since E is the sixth of G and the 6th is aeolian. So play an E aeolian scale over this chord or lines within the the aeolian scale which is a minor scale BTW. Now switch and try to play an E dorian Mode over the E-minor. Notice that the C in the dorian mode is now sharp. Now try a line in which you use that C# as a quick note passing from one note to the next like...
E-----------------------
B-----------------------
G---0-4-7-6-5-4---------
D-2-------------5-4-3-2-
A-----------------------
E-----------------------
Notice the gravity sound that comes from it. I also threw in the F that was natural to continue that feeling. That sound though of the C# is what is going to come from playing an E dorian over an E-minor in the key of G. Any time you play a Dorian mode over any Aeolian chord you get basically what would be a raised fourth from the G. So instead of having a C you have a C#. Now if you just lay on that C# it's going to sound bad and kinda dissonent. However if you use it as a sort of passing tone going up or down from a C to a D in your licks it can add more flavor to your playing. Now you can play certain modes over certain chords for different sounds like how you could play both the Edorian or EAeolian mode over the E minor. Now try playing a Mixolydian mode over the D so it's D mixolydian. It works great cause it has that flat seventh. Then try the Lydian mode for the major chords like C and G and also the Ionian mode for them. Like try the Ionian on the C add9 which will flat the 7th in the key of G. There are just certain modes that you can generally use over different chords like the ones I just stated.
The thing is is that this is kind of complicating everything cause you don't always want to be thinking when you are playing. What I mean is that when you are playing a basic proggression like this it really denotes that you are playing in G. Thus you have a pool of notes to draw from (the notes in the key of G) and you can add flavor by maybe adding a #4 or a b7th in here or there in a run or perhaps a #5. The point is is that I don't find it neccessary to always think in modal concepts when playing a proggression that isn't going to change enough to really denote another key. So I just consider the notes I have to play with in that key and build on that. However if you were playing a Jazz tune which is really going to be something that isn't a typical progression with your journey to the V and the the resoloution and back, something that really moves you can't do that. You can't say well I'm in G so I can play that pool of notes and it will be ok. So that's why Jazz is so much more of a modal thing and why Jazz players are forced to think in modes and not keys. So a typical jazz player is going to know that when they see a minor or a m7 or m9 which would be more typical of jazz that he could play an aeolian mode over it, or a dorian, or a jazz minor scale, or a phrygian etc. depending on what sound he wants. Just because the progression changes so much it doesn't stay in any key so he has to be fluid enough to go with it. That's how they can see a lead sheet and improvise perfectly over tough progressions is because they know what they can play over different chords and it comes from thinking modaly even though at that point they aren't really even thinking when they are playing.
Now for another trick or two to get a sound that is a little jazzier and to really become more exploritive in your playing. Basucally to give you more of an outside sound. It's a little thing known as the parker cycle. The idea behind this is basically that you superimpose a 7th chord a minor third above the 7th chord being played at that time. So let's take the D in your progression. Now let's go up a minor third to F. So it would be F A C Eb or...
or in another position...
E---5-8-11-|-------8-11-13-
B-6--------|----10---------
G----------|-10------------
D----------|---------------
A----------|---------------
E----------|---------------
I added the F on the last one. That's basically an arrpegio of the F7 chord. Now go up another minor third from D and play an Ab7 arrpegiated. Then try it another minor third up to B7. This concept works for minor chords and seventh chords. If you are playing over a minor chord you just change to playing a m7 chord a minor 3rd above the chord or harmony being played. This stuff is great for jazz and the 2-5-1 stuff but may sound a little out of place in rock or other stuff. Then there is the Coltrane cycle which is similar. It's basically that you can superimpose a chord of the smae type being played a major 3rd or aug 5th higher. I'll let you work on that one and figure it out.
Anyway hopefully that was some help as to what else you can play and hopefully I didn't make any mistakes as I did it as quick as I could. If I can explain anything better I'll try my best if there is questions. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 12:01:57 PM
Ok...well say I have a pretty base/boring progression. Say it's the key of G and it's something like:
G, Cadd9, D, C, Em with the occaisional Bm or something. What are the "textbook" options to play over this? I know I can sit there all day and play a pentatonic scale but what are my other options? Which "modes" will give what kind of a sound over this?
Arghhhh! I hate this =). |
| rubylith |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 10:11:07 AM
it would start on the 3rd not of a major key...the iii as a chord in a major key would always be a minor chord... |
| Jamie M |
Posted - 06/27/2004 : 11:03:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rubylith
check this, it might put you in the right direction...
say you are in Gmaj7
ok for a pentatonic scale you would be in Em
so if the chord progression is anything in Gmaj7/Em
(Gmay7 Am7 Bm7 Cmaj7 D7 Em7 F#m7b5)
Then play the following mode (Phyrygian) starting at the B on the 7th fret of the E string...
--------------------------------------------7--8--10
-----------------------------------7--8--10---------
------------------------------7--9------------------
--------------------7--9--10------------------------
----------7--9--10----------------------------------
-7--8--10-------------------------------------------
It has a different sound and its one of my favs, plus I remember that it helped me expand a bit...
Anyway the most important thing to get out of this is how to use that one mode (Phyrygian) any key at any time...
So in Gmaj you would play Phyrygian on the 3rd, the 3rd being Bm
in Amaj it would be in C#m
in Dmaj it would be in F#m
and so on...hopefullyu it will help...
I'm basically in the same boat of being theory handicapped.. but I took 2 years of high school music which helped with improv more than I could've imagined, but can only help so much.
This is what I got out of your post.. as far as I know modes are used to get some sort of mood out of a key, so I'm guessing that each mode has a certain pattern in its scale (based on your post, the phyrygian mode ALWAYS goes by: semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone) and starts on the major of the key you're in.....? or starts on the 3rd note of the major key?
Does this even make sense?.. I'm starting to confuse myself.. please explain if you could.
|
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 6:30:16 PM
I think that what I have to say will be simalar to what rubylith has said. While knowing theory and ideas behind music that make music work (basically understanding the way we organize sound, remembering that theory is basically based off of western music due mostly to Bach who is the father of western theory pretty much) is very important and in fact I think crucial for any musician. However what almost all musicians lack besides some chosen few it seems is the ability to make that connection with yourself to play what you feel. Like rubylith was saying about the soul part of your playing.
I think it's very interesting from culture to culture of how we learn music. A sitar player from india that would be trained to play in their classical tradition really learns not by written music but by a lot of mimicking. Thus they from the begining they learn from their ears. They do learn the theory behind their music and all but learning to play often comes through mimicking. That's a little different from here where we still might mimick a teacher by sound some, but I think primarily we learn from written music and books. Someone could literally go through and write tons upon tons of music that worked fine and even sounded good just by using theory but the most important part is playing yourself and expressing yourself. Like Bruce Lee said about how he can do lots of flashy stuff and really make people say wow and all that and that's easy for him but to truly express himself as a martial artist that is hard to do. I think it's the same with music I know lot's of good guitar players and people that can shred and really go nuts playing things but their playing is souless. That's why I love Tim cause I really think that Tim plays straight from his soul.
Anyway so some things to try to advance in your playing is first read Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner. Seriously it's almost a cure all for anyone struggling with music. Then try meditation before playing. Then when you play don't be worried about what you are playing or sounding good just play. Sit down with your guitar and clear your mind then start playing without knowing what you are going to play or even that you are even going to play something. I think exercises like this will help you to hear what you need to play and establish a connection with yourself so you are not just playing lines. I look at music as a language (thanks to Victor) of which there are only 12 notes (at least in our western tradition) or call them letters and by playing we are just speaking through music. So it's essential to understand the language we speak as well but although kids can speak english pretty good at 5 or 6 they usually have no idea of grammer rules and such. Same as music I know I've listened to some players improv that really just play by ear and know nothing of theory and are good. Theory will only help though but don't forget what's important is not the grammer but the ideas that you depict. Don't limit yourself to scales and notes and confine your playing to that move beyond it. Just remember playin is often more listening than it is playing.
Then for theory study I would suggest listening to lots of Jazz and studying it. Study Parker, and Coltrane, and some of those guys. Then study Jazz in general. Theory is basically an explanation that we use to explain how we organize sound and how things sound good through this organization. For instance you don't know what a minor chord is or a sus chord until someone can play it and you can hear it. You may be able to explain it but it's the hearing that's important. Western music is developed around the church modes and etc. yada yada and you should know that stuff but to truely know it you must know not just what it is but what is does. Music was organized basically from the begining by what sounds good. I could go into the history of theory and all that but that's the consice point is that it's organized around sound and what fits. The only rule in music is that there are no rules though. I can reccomend a few good theory books like Jazz theory by mark Levine I think and there are many many more. Also study and listen to classical music just make sure you have the approach of learining to aid your playing and your connection with yourself. Another great book for guitar is the Joe Pass on guitar book where he explains lines by sound and such and the gravity effect that they have. Theory is easy it just takes time. The thing is more applying theory and knowing how to manipulate the language of music for you. Anyway I've been going on for a while now but to close up I'll say this. I used to think that music was just all about expressing yourself but then I stumbled across a quote by some compser I think that said music is not about expressing yourslef it is expression. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 09:32:24 AM
The physics of harmonics is probably what I understand best, lol. Anything math based has always been my forte...I had a dual major for a while of physics/math and switched to comp. sci. with a minor in math.
My point was, there are people that are extremely talented technically/physically (Steve Vai comes to mind)...but seem very boring and lifeless to me. I mean, I couldn't dream of playing the crap Vai can play, but I've heard local musicians that have a more interesting sound playing 3 chord folk songs. |
| guitarted |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 09:27:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
Thanks for the replies guys. It's not so much about finding a particular riff or physical technique. I guess I just never understood the theory behind it and would finally like to. I certainly don't want to become too bogged down with theory and become a mathematical type player, but I'd at least like to have an idea in my head of what might sound good over certain progressions.
So then I guess you don't want the physics explanation behind why the harmonics at 5, 7 and 12 are the clearest eh?
Maybe I'm biased, (because I like math) but having a good understanding of the theory behind the music helps I think, even if you find it boring. You'll realize that there's no coincidence between which notes sound good together and which ones don't.
I find it fascinating. That mgiht just be me, after all, I am guitarted |
| rubylith |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 09:24:10 AM
there is definately a fine line between scientist and soulman...I think you gotta have both. Theory helps a lot, but you cant let it take your soul...if you can't improvise because you are stuck on this scale that you only play this way, then it mean you are too focused on theory....but if you are a a jam or something and don't understand how the others are moving from chord/groove then you may want to focus on learning why/how/what works...
anyway its early and im tired...gonna go see farenheit 9/11... |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 08:55:02 AM
Thanks for the replies guys. It's not so much about finding a particular riff or physical technique. I guess I just never understood the theory behind it and would finally like to. I certainly don't want to become too bogged down with theory and become a mathematical type player, but I'd at least like to have an idea in my head of what might sound good over certain progressions. |
| Macht |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 4:32:35 PM
if you want to work on plucking/hammering, this kinda a fun little thing.. just pluck the two strings:
E
B
G-0h2---0h4---0h12---0h9
D
A-0-----0h2---0h10---0h7
E--------------------0 |
| rubylith |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 4:29:37 PM
yup those are octaves...(atleast)two of the same note |
| guitarted |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 4:17:08 PM
some chords that sound cool wihout being your typical chord and withotu having that power chord sound are these
E----------------
B------------------
G---4-6-7---------
D---x-x-x--------------
A---2-4-5----------------
E--------------------
These exact ones work in Em, but I'm using the diagram more as an example.. I can't remember what these are called.. Octave somethign i think...
Anyway, I think they sound really godo when you want something simple that breaks away from the scale
Think STREAM or KUNDALINI |
| Macht |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 3:42:45 PM
hey.
I'm in a very musical family, my Dad plays like very freaking horn and he plays a little bit guitar. My Mom plays a little guitar, really good at piano, plays flute too. My oldest brother plays strictly guitar, he plays a little violing too. My next brother plays bass/guitar (probabl;y my biggest inspiration)
I remember wanting to play bass so my parents made me take piano lessons, eh it was alright, I didn't get much theory from it. So my brother gave me one of his basses, and I couldn't let go from it. He basically taught me everything I needed to know for it. I then listened to him play and I sad, I want to take up guitar. So I've been playing for about a year now, I played in church 3 months after I got a guitar, becuase I loved it, I couldn't let the thing down. I play about 3 hours a day.
The thing is, is that I didn't really get tuaght on theory. I learned how to play, I then learned the notes on the guitar and stuff. What I did was I would sit down with a peice of music, whether is was in Key Signatures or Tab and I would learn it. You kinda learn about music when playing a peice. That's why I love Dave and Tim so much, ebcuase they have some great music knowledge
The trick is, just messing around with all the stuff. It's understanding how music works. I can probably take any song from church and do the melody while everyone else does rhtym etc.
Not sure if that was really a help, there's also a site that seems pretty good http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=192058 |
| rubylith |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 3:41:48 PM
check this, it might put you in the right direction...
say you are in Gmaj7
ok for a pentatonic scale you would be in Em
so if the chord progression is anything in Gmaj7/Em
(Gmay7 Am7 Bm7 Cmaj7 D7 Em7 F#m7b5)
Then play the following mode (Phyrygian) starting at the B on the 7th fret of the E string...
--------------------------------------------7--8--10
-----------------------------------7--8--10---------
------------------------------7--9------------------
--------------------7--9--10------------------------
----------7--9--10----------------------------------
-7--8--10-------------------------------------------
It has a different sound and its one of my favs, plus I remember that it helped me expand a bit...
Anyway the most important thing to get out of this is how to use that one mode (Phyrygian) any key at any time...
So in Gmaj you would play Phyrygian on the 3rd, the 3rd being Bm
in Amaj it would be in C#m
in Dmaj it would be in F#m
and so on...hopefullyu it will help... |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 3:36:20 PM
I hear what you're saying. Conversely, I found that I made absolutely no progress when I just sat in my room and played whatever I felt like playing. I was able to make slight progress and found myself listening a lot more when I put in an album at reasonable volume and tried to play along. Certain notes definitely made a lot more sense than others. It's obviously difficult to create solos when you have nothing to play against. I'm just beyond frustrated. Part of me wants to just eliminate traditional open chords from my vocabulary and refuse to play anything I know for a while. |
| guitarted |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 3:27:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
I find myself constantly playing the same runs and the pentatonic scale with blues notes thrown in.
I'm exactly the same
Recently, I bought a DD-6. I use the hold function a lot and jam over it. For the most part I am doing the pentatonic thing but Sometimes I just take the time to dick around until I find something that works.
I don't know what your practice settings are like exactly, but i think I've had trouble expanding in the past ebcause whenever i played with scales it was whn trying to jam with someone and I didn't wanna ound stupid.
The dd-6 allows me to have a prograssion playing and then i get to dick around without someone else passing judgement.
I'm still in the process of growing musically to a point of satisfaction, but I am improving. |
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