| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 3:11:02 PM
Someone recently said that I should try playing the Am mixolydian scale over a song in C major. Problem I constantly come back to is this:
C D E F G A Bb
Is this C mixo or F mixo? Most books say it's C mixo, most people I've spoken to say it's F mixo. The thing I don't understand is when to play this pattern. It obviously would be suited for F major because the notes are the same. Could you play this over C major? I can't imagine the Bb would sound tolerable. I digress...
What's the pattern for a minor mixo scale?
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| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| little lurker |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 08:51:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JoeGamo05
whats theory never heard of it till a while ago and i've been playinf for about 6 years... anyone wanna fill me in :P
the principles of music; how it's written, how to read it, how to take it apart, and put it together; an understanding of music |
| Poparad |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 5:40:35 PM
Those definately are some simple, cool sounding yet mind bending progressions. I haven't analyzed Hotel California myself but I've heard from a number of places it's the 3 forms of minor bit you named.
As for A7 Am G.... there are a number of ways you could approach this. You mentioned that A7 is the V/V in G, but it doesn't resolve to G. Take a look at Am, A C E. D7 would be spelled D F# A C (E). Alot of the same notes are there and the important ones that A7 would resolve to with D are also in Am. In jazz, you often hear people saying that the ii and the V are essentially the same sound. While not the best explanation in this case, it's a possible one.
Another one would be the major to parallel minor chord thing. You can borrow chords between major and minor keys and will to mix up the sound a bit. For example, using Cm (the iv from Gm) in the key of G, or using Eb F G (vi and vii in Gm, I in G). Once common progression is IV iv I. In G, it's C Cm G. The C to Cm works especially well because there are common tones and half step movement between all the voices. You can look at A7 to Am the same way. A, E, and possibly G all say the same. C# moves to C, and then on to B with G major. The voice leading is beautiful in that. So, you can see it as borrowing chords, but not in the G-Gm sence, but more like A as an isolated chord... but that's again a stretch. So, onto possibility three, is just to merely look at it as good voice leading. All you really need to make a chord sound good is a common tone, a half step or two, and possible a whole step moving between the chords. I like this explanation the best as it opens you up to more possibilities without constricting you to certain musical situations. You could conceivable continue the progression with the same priciples like so: A7 Am G Gm F#7 F#m F Fm E7 Em... etc etc. Just a whole lot of gradual stepping down. Kind of cool. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 2:53:26 PM
Continuing the conversation with myself =).
Take Ticket To Ride for example:
http://www.guitartabs.cc/fetchurl.php?filename=/b/beatles/ticket_to_ride.crd
It appears to me that this song is completely in D major except for the Emaj chord, but that's just the V of A (the V) so it's acceptable, especially because it resolves to A. Is this right? |
| JoeGamo05 |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 2:37:56 PM
whats theory never heard of it till a while ago and i've been playinf for about 6 years... anyone wanna fill me in :P |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 1:13:47 PM
So I made a little more headway in understanding how you can fit other chords into a song. I understand how in prior example that was in G, you could fit an A major chord in, because it's the V/V (V of D in this case), but the Amajor doesn't resolve to D, that's what's losing me. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 11:49:18 AM
To clarify what I was getting at, I'll use another example from the same group. If you look at Hotel California, the verse is:
Bm-F#-A-E-G-D-Em-F#
I finally understand that you can get the Em from the natural minor scale and the Emaj from the melodic minor and that apparently all of the chords within the natural/harmonic/melodic minor scales are still within the minor key itself. At least, I hope I understand that correctly.
How does that work with majors though? I just can't grasp how you can fit an Amaj or A7 chord into a song in Gmajor. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 10:26:14 AM
Thanks for the info, plenty to think about. I wanted to ask a question about a simple song: Lyin' Eyes by the Eagles. The song is entirely in G except for one point where it goes to an A7 chord. The A7 resolves to an Am chord (the Am makes sense). Why does the A7 seem to work in this song when C# is not in G major? |
| Poparad |
Posted - 05/17/2003 : 01:02:39 AM
Well, this is kind of a gray area as there are a lot of exceptions, but here's the gist of keys.
There are 12 major keys and their relative minors (not counting enharmonics i.e. C#major=Dbmajor).
Modality is a little different. Modality is where you take a chord found within the major/minor key and make that your 'tonic' chord even though it isn't the chord usually associated with the key. For example, you could write a piece based around the chord Dm7, and use C major but keep returning to the 2nd degree, the note D, as your tonic note. This mode is called dorian. It would sound kind of like a minor key, but a little different.
In modal music, the tonic chord's relation to the key is a little deceptive. You could use the key of C (no sharps or flats) but the tonic would be D and not C, you could also use the key of Dm (1 flat) but all the B's would be natural (the difference between dorian and natural minor is the sixth degree, B/Bb in the case of Dm). Generally, key signatures don't play a whole lot of a role in specifying the mode, sometimes the chart will have "dorian" or something written at the top to let you know.
The natural minor can also be considered modal if you don't use major V chords. Most rock music can be considered modal since the bVI, bVII, and i chords are often the basis of minor-key-ish progressions. For example, All Along the Watchtower. it sounds like it's in a minor key, but the lack of a major V chord or something of that nature makes it an Aeolian mode tune. Modal music also uses lots of parallel movement of chords... once again the Watchtower tune moves around by scale degrees (i, VII, VI, VII, i).
So, basically when you have a minor key tune, you can pick from 3 modes that are based around a minor chord: Dorian (ii) Phrygian (iii) and Aeolian (vi). You have the most freedom to pick between the different modes when it's just a 1 chord vamp. The more changing of chords that goes on, the more a certain mode is clarified. For example, if you just had a vamp on Am, you could pick any of those modes. However, it went Am to Bm, you would have to play A Dorian since the other two modes don't have the notes of Dm in them. (A Phrygian has Bb major as the chord above the tonic chord, and A Aeolian has B half-diminished)
For major, you can pick from Ionian (I) or Lydian (IV). The only difference between the two is the 4th degree, and Lydian often sounds better than Ionian because of that. Usually Mixolydian (V) is reserved for dominant chords, but you can use it on a major if the seventh degree isn't specified in anyway.
Modes make more sense when you play them over different chords and get a feel for how they sound. Basically, I look at modality as one of two things: 1) Variations on major and minor scales to play over chords, or 2) A way to tonicize a chord other then the I for a major key or i in a minor key.
There are some things I didn't really explain all that in depth, but that's a general overview of modes. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 05/17/2003 : 12:14:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Poparad
This mode works over any chord found in the key of F major, but calling it C mixolydian implies it's played over C7.
Ok...we'll start here =). "Played over C7"...does that mean there's a key called C7 or do you mean the chord C7? From what I understood, there's major and minor keys...period. I could be completely off base on this...but I'm trying to grasp it all slowly. |
| Poparad |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 9:53:53 PM
C D E F G A Bb C - This is C mixolydian. F mixolydian would have an Eb, because there has to be a whole step between the 7th degree and the root.
C mixolydian is also F major (Ionian), which may be what those people meant. This mode works over any chord found in the key of F major, but calling it C mixolydian implies it's played over C7. You could also play it over any plain Cmajor triad in a song, but sometimes it would sound out of place if you're playing all within the key and suddenly for one chord you throw in a Bb or whatever. Most of the time though chord progressions are all within one key so you don't need to worry about throwing the concept of modes in, but if say, you're playing in the key of A (3 sharps, F#, C#, G#) and suddenly there's a C7 chord, which is obviously not in the key of A, then C mixolydian would be one choice that would work well over C7. |
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