| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 4:41:29 PM
When is it G# and when is it Ab? I mean, this book I'm reading on music theory lists out the major scales and it has the A Major Scale with a G# in it. However, when the key of Eb major is written, it's Ab. I know it's some simple rule or something I'm missing. |
| 31 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| j |
Posted - 03/15/2003 : 01:31:28 AM
oops, my bad, a G would be an A. I should stop posting at 4:30 in the morning. |
| GuitarGuy305 |
Posted - 03/08/2003 : 12:19:11 AM
The scariest part about what you just said is that I pretty much understand it all!!
On a similar note, I was at barnes and nobles today, perusing the Guitar Grimoire: Scales and Modes. And I actually GET modes and shit...I mean, I don't know them like the back of my hand yet, but as far as the main ideas behind them, the information is just getting like soaked into my brain. I must be a quick study with this stuff.
Same thing with that book I got; the Guitar Scale Guru. The only reason I really want to learn scales and stuff is I want to know what I've been playing all these years, and why it's sounded good, etc... I've been playing for 8-10 years, and been soloing wtih people, just making shit up, improvising and playing by ear. After a little too much of people asking me how much I've worked with the Circle of Fifths and all this other shit, I decided to look into it. After about 2 minutes of reading the Guitar Scale Guru, I understood the main ideas behind the Circle of Fifths and the key signatures and stuff. It's very interesting, but I can also see how it could be very mind boggling at times. I'm just glad that it's coming pretty easily to me.
Okay, enough of my yakking.
Adam |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 5:21:12 PM
Well, you're not wrong. That's just another(more complicated than you need to make it) way to think about it. They're extremely uncommon scales(I think maybe the only time you'll ever see them might be when you are playing a band instrument and in is not in a good key for transposing... and for theoretically correct transposing you end up with these godawful key signatures). If you continue the circle of fifths from F#, which has six sharps, you'll come to C#, which has seven. Another easy way to look at it is if your C scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, then of course you're going to raise all the other notes up half a step when you go to C#.... C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#, C#. You can say your C# scale has 7 sharps, or your Db scale has 5 flats... it'll still sound the same. And the same if you continue on to Cb, which has seven flats... still the same tones as the B scale with five sharps.
Now how about this.... your Cb minor scale would be..... Cb, Db, Ebb, Fb, Gb, Abb, Bbb, Cb 
That's just for fun though... I don't really see any real use for that one. Much easier to think of it like a B minor with 2 sharps. |
| GuitarGuy305 |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 3:45:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dirtysloth
And to add to Adam's crazy lunatic scales..... in C#, C is actually B#. In Cb, E is Fb. And speaking of Fb, if you played that scale, you would have Bbb.
Shit, now I'm fucking confused. I thought "C#" was actually Db, a flat key, Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db. And that "Cb" was B.
Adam |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 09:16:16 AM
Well, actually when the guitar player plays a G, the trumpet would call it an A.  But anyway, it ESPECIALLY matters when you're talking about transposing. If you write out a chord progression for a guitar in a certain key, and write out a solo for that trumpet in the same key instead of transposing up a whole step, you're going to run into some major problems. The reason some instruments are in Eb, or Bb, or whatever, instead of C, is because when these instruments were developed, they sort of developed their own standards so that they could play in the intended range for the specific instrument and read music as easily as possible. If you tried to call an F on a clarinet an Eb(which it really is), then that makes all the fingerings seem absolutely ridiculous. I do agree with you though, when you're just talking with someone, I'd rather say C than B# even if that is the theoretically correct name for it. And in the end it doesn't make any difference in that situation, but when it comes to writing sheet music, it really does make life much easier.
As for the gregorian chant thing, JTR, try playing around making melodies off those scales, not really jumping over huge intervals, but sticking with lines. Really slow and sort of timeless. You'll see what I mean. Here's a page that might help explain things a little better... http://www.vwc.edu/academics/csm/chant/notation.html
And to add to Adam's crazy lunatic scales..... in C#, C is actually B#. In Cb, E is Fb. And speaking of Fb, if you played that scale, you would have Bbb. |
| j |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 04:37:58 AM
In the end, however, none of this nitpicky stuff really matters. Especially when you run into discrepancies between instruments. It's pretty strange that a trumpet player and a guitar player could play the exact same sound in the same register except the trumpet player calls it an F and the guitar player calls it a G. And yet, they sound the same. Someone must have been drinking when these desicions were being made. |
| GuitarGuy305 |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 9:26:22 PM
Something else that is interesting regarding the spelling of scales. There is one scale where F is referred to as E#, and a scale where B is referred to as Cb. This is to preserve the spelling of the F# Major and Gb Major scales, so that each letter from A to G is represented once.
The F# scale is spelled this way: F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#. And the Gb scale is spelled this way: Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb.
I just thought it was interesting that to preserve the spelling of the scale, F and B are referred to as E# and Cb.
Adam |
| GuitarGuy305 |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 9:14:23 PM
A simple answer to the original question using the F Major scale as an example:
To construct an F Major scale, you must start and end with a note of "F" and have every other letter of the musical alphabet represented once: F G A B C D E F. If the interval separating A & B must be a half step, the "B" note must be flatted (Bb). It's incorrect to call this note "A#" because a note named "A" is already included in the spelling.
This may simplify the answer to the question of why sometimes a note is sharp and sometimes it is flat. Goes back to the thing about sharp and flat keys really.
Adam |
| JTR |
Posted - 03/03/2003 : 02:14:03 AM
Can someone explain dirtysloth's comment, if not you yourself sloth, on how one makes gregorian chant sounding stuff with what you were saying. I actually might want to make some of that... |
| j |
Posted - 03/02/2003 : 12:31:00 AM
Minarets is, more or less, in the key of A harmonic minor which is: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A.
The only thing is that the root of the song is E, so you could use these notes as a point of reference: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E. |
| tim111262 |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 10:41:02 PM
the rule is that on the staff the notes have to be in alphabeticly
for example:
g major: g a b c d e f# g
not g a b c d e gb |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 9:15:49 PM
Well, as for the Mario Bros. song, it might make sense to say that it's Bb since it has two flats, Bb and Eb. The E natural might be part of a walkdown? Am I thinking of the right song? I'm just guessing here without actually listening to the tune.
As for Minarets, that is a walkdown. The key(no pun intended) to making walkdowns/ups working is that they start and end on notes that are in key. But then again isn't Minarets in e minor? Because C wouldn't be in key then. But then again Minarets has got some funky eastern sounding scales in it. I digress.... |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 8:46:44 PM
Kind of an odd question...but I found this tab of the mario brothers theme song. Within the part that I learned...I found these notes (forgive flat vs. sharp cause I can't figure out the key):
A Bb B C Eb E F G
What the hell is that? Granted, my music theory knowledge is pretty minimal at this point. I just can't find a scale/pattern or anything recognizable that that would fit into. I guess I see four notes in a row (A, Bb, B, C) and think...well that doesn't fit into a major/minor pattern, what the hell am I missing?
The same thing also occurs in Minarets (which I'm sure at least some of you are familiar with)...there's a descending A, G#, G, F# run...A, Ab, G, Gb if you prefer.
WHAT AM I MISSING?! LOL |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 02/25/2003 : 01:41:53 AM
WHOLE TONE SCALE!!!!
LYDIAN b7!!!!
SYMETRICAL DIMINISHED!!!!
HALF WHOLE!!!!
WHOLE HALF!!!! |
| j |
Posted - 02/25/2003 : 12:43:59 AM
Dorian is acutally all over the place, with the pinnacle being Miles Davis's So What. That song is nothing but D dorian to Eb dorian and back again. When you start finding the many loop holes in music theory, it's important to keep what you're learning in a relative context. That is, rather than just learning about mixolodyian or dorian or anything else, try to find songs that can serve as examples. When there is something that could be one or the other (e.g. is it Bb or A#) it's important to keep a point of reference because most of it is, after all, relative. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/24/2003 : 8:38:56 PM
I definitely will and you certainly have. I just get really confused by this book I'm reading...so obviously I need some new literature and an entry level music theory course and I'll be writing in no time. |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 02/24/2003 : 7:30:31 PM
Not only don't think of scales as major or minor(although most of the time I still use one or the other as a reference point), don't even think of scales using 7 notes. Like how would you categorize a pentatonic scale... like just the black keys on a piano. Well, I guess it is major sounding. Anyway, how about a whole tone scale which doesn't really sound like anything but strange(for example, a whole tone scale might be C, D, E, F#, G#, A#, C[although I think the correct way to write it would be B# ])?
Keep up the learning man. I hope I've helped a little. You should definitely get a lot out of a class. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/24/2003 : 6:36:07 PM
LOL, I'll stick with natural to start off  . I guess I had always thought that any series of notes would fit into some form of the major scale, and depending on the position of the notes and the chords used, you could determine the key (major/minor/etc.) The one thing that has truly boggled me lately, is that of all the scales I've seen, none of them have 4 notes in a row (all half tone steps). However, I've seen several songs that have 4 adjacent notes and sound fine. |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 02/24/2003 : 5:51:16 PM
Here, here!!! And is your minor in music going to be natural, harmonic, or melodic?  |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/24/2003 : 4:14:14 PM
I'll take your advice...I think I'm gonna buy the book. I think I'll do a minor in music next semester as well. It's bothered me for so long, it's time to take a stand! |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 02/23/2003 : 8:17:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
I'd kill for a tutorial on this that doesn't assume you've played the piano or some other musical instrument for 10 years.
Well, I still have my book from my Fundamentals of Music class. To me (a person in the exact same position as you), the book was very easy to understand. It's called A Creative Approach to Music Fundamentals (7th edition) by William Ducksworth. If you don't want to buy it, maybe you should think about taking a college course. I'm sure you'll be able to get all of your questions answered in that class. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/23/2003 : 8:06:59 PM
Ok, I'll admit that was a bit over my head at this point =)...but thanks much. I'll save that post for when I get to that point. I'm positive that there is some fundamental music understanding that I'm completely missing. My playing skill far surpasses any knowledge I have. All I've ever really done is play other peoples' songs from the start. No idea why they sounded good, just kinda played it. Now that I'm trying to understand *why* and not just how, I'm lost. I'd kill for a tutorial on this that doesn't assume you've played the piano or some other musical instrument for 10 years. |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 02/23/2003 : 11:18:53 AM
Well, if you're playing C mixo over F Major, you really wouldn't call it C Mixo... you'd just call it F Major since it's the same notes. And yeah, it probably wouldn't sound too good with C Major. If you're soloing over a chord progression that had a G chord in it, well, that's GBD, or e minor works in C too and that's EGB, and you're hitting a Bb and minor seconds aren't very pretty.
If you're in C, a chord like F7sus4 could still work, even though it's out of key. That chord is spelled F,A,Bb, C,Eb. So I haven't tried it, but I'm guessing C Dorian would work there(C Dorian is C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C). I've never heard this exactly anywhere, but the way I perceive it to be is... you would use C mixo, lydian, whatever, always in something that is based on C. It just depends on what other out-of-key chords you're coming across.
And actually it's not just for soloing, you can write with these too and come up with some gregorian chant sounding material. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/23/2003 : 01:21:15 AM
You rule...that actually made some sense. Thanks man. Now the question I have is...how do you know in what key you can play these scales/modes? I've had the hardest time trying to figure this out. For instance, would that C mixo scale sound good with F major? From what I can gather, it doesn't sound very well with C major. |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 9:57:48 PM
These scales have sharps... G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#
These scales have flats... F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
When you say "key of C", you're only thinking C Major(Ionian). C minor, for instance, isn't the same as C Major either... it's "aeolian". These are names for different modes, which have different applications. Dorian is minor sounding, phrygian kind of sounds oriental, lydian is a lot like a major scale but not quite, and locrian kind of has a spanish flavor to it.
C mixolydian is like playing your F Major scale(so yes, you're exactly right, if you want to think about it this way), but from C to C(remember F Major is one of those flat keys, it has one flat, the order of the flats is BAEDGCF, so the one flat is Bb). This is a good scale to use over dominant seventh and suspended chords.
|
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 9:01:59 PM
Also...my book has "mixo in the key of C" listed as:
C D E F G A Bb C
That doesn't make sense to me...I mean Bb isn't in the key of C, so how can you play it? Isn't that just a different order of the key of F major? Damn this is confusing me...lol. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 8:58:34 PM
Ok, so which keys are sharp and which are flat then? lol
Also...what about regular keys like G major? |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 8:38:32 PM
It definitely limits the amount of confusion. See my post in the "Improving My Skills" topic. |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 8:16:06 PM
Yeah......that's pretty much what they're for. I took a class on Fundamentals of Music and the teacher said that they use flats in the flat keys and sharps in the sharp keys. Pretty funny because I think they did this to limit the amount of confusion. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 6:23:09 PM
That's what I assumed...but this book just seemed so random about it that I thought there might be more to it. Thanks for the reply! |
| Jay |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 6:17:00 PM
I think it's just a matter of aesthetics. |
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