| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Black Lotus |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 1:40:04 PM
Got this from www.theonion.com today ...
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Responding to recent events on Earth, God, the omniscient creator-deity worshipped by billions of followers of various faiths for more than 6,000 years, angrily clarified His longtime stance against humans killing each other Monday.
"Look, I don't know, maybe I haven't made myself completely clear, so for the record, here it is again," said the Lord, His divine face betraying visible emotion during a press conference near the site of the fallen Twin Towers. "Somehow, people keep coming up with the idea that I want them to kill their neighbor. Well, I don't. And to be honest, I'm really getting sick and tired of it. Get it straight. Not only do I not want anybody to kill anyone, but I specifically commanded you not to, in really simple terms that anybody ought to be able to understand."
Worshipped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike, God said His name has been invoked countless times over the centuries as a reason to kill in what He called "an unending cycle of violence."
"I don't care how holy somebody claims to be," God said. "If a person tells you it's My will that they kill someone, they're wrong. Got it? I don't care what religion you are, or who you think your enemy is, here it is one more time: No killing, in My name or anyone else's, ever again."
The press conference came as a surprise to humankind, as God rarely intervenes in earthly affairs. As a matter of longstanding policy, He has traditionally left the task of interpreting His message and divine will to clerics, rabbis, priests, imams, and Biblical scholars. Theologians and laymen alike have been given the task of pondering His ineffable mysteries, deciding for themselves what to do as a matter of faith. His decision to manifest on the material plane was motivated by the deep sense of shock, outrage, and sorrow He felt over the Sept. 11 violence carried out in His name, and over its dire potential ramifications around the globe.
"I tried to put it in the simplest possible terms for you people, so you'd get it straight, because I thought it was pretty important," said God, called Yahweh and Allah respectively in the Judaic and Muslim traditions. "I guess I figured I'd left no real room for confusion after putting it in a four-word sentence with one-syllable words, on the tablets I gave to Moses. How much more clear can I get?"
"But somehow, it all gets twisted around and, next thing you know, somebody's spouting off some nonsense about, 'God says I have to kill this guy, God wants me to kill that guy, it's God's will,'" God continued. "It's not God's will, all right? News flash: 'God's will' equals 'Don't murder people.'"
Worse yet, many of the worst violators claim that their actions are justified by passages in the Bible, Torah, and Qur'an.
"To be honest, there's some contradictory stuff in there, okay?" God said. "So I can see how it could be pretty misleading. I admit it—My bad. I did My best to inspire them, but a lot of imperfect human agents have misinterpreted My message over the millennia. Frankly, much of the material that got in there is dogmatic, doctrinal bullshit. I turn My head for a second and, suddenly, all this stuff about homosexuality gets into Leviticus, and everybody thinks it's God's will to kill gays. It absolutely drives Me up the wall."
God praised the overwhelming majority of His Muslim followers as "wonderful, pious people," calling the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks rare exceptions.
"This whole medieval concept of the jihad, or holy war, had all but vanished from the Muslim world in, like, the 10th century, and with good reason," God said. "There's no such thing as a holy war, only unholy ones. The vast majority of Muslims in this world reject the murderous actions of these radical extremists, just like the vast majority of Christians in America are pissed off over those two bigots on The 700 Club."
Continued God, "Read the book: 'Allah is kind, Allah is beautiful, Allah is merciful.' It goes on and on that way, page after page. But, no, some assholes have to come along and revive this stupid holy-war crap just to further their own hateful agenda. So now, everybody thinks Muslims are all murderous barbarians. Thanks, Taliban: 1,000 years of pan-Islamic cultural progress down the drain."
God stressed that His remarks were not directed exclusively at Islamic extremists, but rather at anyone whose ideological zealotry overrides his or her ability to comprehend the core message of all world religions.
"I don't care what faith you are, everybody's been making this same mistake since the dawn of time," God said. "The Muslims massacre the Hindus, the Hindus massacre the Muslims. The Buddhists, everybody massacres the Buddhists. The Jews, don't even get me started on the hardline, right-wing, Meir Kahane-loving Israeli nationalists, man. And the Christians? You people believe in a Messiah who says, 'Turn the other cheek,' but you've been killing everybody you can get your hands on since the Crusades."
Growing increasingly wrathful, God continued: "Can't you people see? What are you, morons? There are a ton of different religious traditions out there, and different cultures worship Me in different ways. But the basic message is always the same: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism... every religious belief system under the sun, they all say you're supposed to love your neighbors, folks! It's not that hard a concept to grasp."
"Why would you think I'd want anything else? Humans don't need religion or God as an excuse to kill each other—you've been doing that without any help from Me since you were freaking apes!" God said. "The whole point of believing in God is to have a higher standard of behavior. How obvious can you get?"
"I'm talking to all of you, here!" continued God, His voice rising to a shout. "Do you hear Me? I don't want you to kill anybody. I'm against it, across the board. How many times do I have to say it? Don't kill each other anymore—ever! I'm fucking serious!"
Upon completing His outburst, God fell silent, standing quietly at the podium for several moments. Then, witnesses reported, God's shoulders began to shake, and He wept.
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Look ma, new signature!
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| 70 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 01/22/2002 : 8:17:06 PM
But simultaneously, they can't tell you if you're doing anything right!
"War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left."
"Why would you even shake a man's hand if you're not going to help him stand." |
| LizT |
Posted - 01/21/2002 : 10:46:34 AM
Oh hell, just do what makes ya happy with a dead corpse! At least they can't tell you if you're doing anything wrong!!
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| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/21/2002 : 10:18:19 AM
to the top
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy          |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/21/2002 : 06:00:40 AM
Xar, thank you for summing it up so eloquently for me as well. As you can all tell my emotions were getting the best of me as well as alot of frustration at my points not being addressed. I feel I was getting to a point where it was hard to be so eloquent. Thanx for condensing it all and explaining it as well as you did. It is good to see that my comments have not gone unread or misunderstood by all. Oh and by the way, You all don't have to agree with my points, it is wonderful that you all have read them and can now take them into consideration when making your own decisions on ideas and beliefs. Thanx again Xar!! Next dead body I come across has your name all over it. Did you ever get the book "Equisite Corpse"?
Oh yes, and if your fucking a dead body, does it really matter if you push on his chest or just turn him over to make him groan? I am afraid by that point you passed GROSS miles ago.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| dan p. |
Posted - 01/21/2002 : 12:38:43 AM
yeah, but which is more fun?
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| LizT |
Posted - 01/20/2002 : 11:49:02 PM
quote:
It is so amazing that somebody so perverse is so well spoken.
Teri, I strongly feel that the very intelligent minds of the world all have some bizarre egecentricities. Xar just happens to be one that shares his! I am also very impressed with his contributions to the message board.
dan, that's gross! You don't have to push on their chest, just turning them over will expell their last breath!
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| dan p. |
Posted - 01/20/2002 : 11:01:42 PM
sometimes if you press down on a corpse's chest hard, it groans.
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 01/20/2002 : 10:45:07 PM
LOL! That was hilarious! I guess since Xar's "bedfellows" can't talk, then he has to carry on a conversion for two people.
"War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left."
"Why would you even shake a man's hand if you're not going to help him stand." |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/20/2002 : 7:17:23 PM
It is so amazing that somebody so perverse is so well spoken. Never judge a book by its bedfellows...
teri 
Did I mention that I finished a marathon? |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 01/20/2002 : 3:56:37 PM
Well said Xar, well said indeed.
Patriotism is a maggot in their heads. - Henry D. Thoreau |
| dan p. |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 10:07:50 PM
see, now i'd agree with xar and fluffy. but, i side with isaac when i say this, i don't like to fuckin read that much. hurts the eyes.
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| Xar666 |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 8:25:54 PM
what |
| Black Lotus |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 11:26:51 AM
Can we just have a moderator please close this fucking topic ...
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| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 03:39:52 AM
Isaac Said:quote:
So i could go point to point and quote you and distort what you said and reply but we wouldn't get anywhere.
Well I don't necessarily agree. Surprise, Surprise. If you went point to point, at least I would believe you are reading what I am typing. Instead you pick out the things you feel I have "attacked" you over and seem to continual ignore my points. I challege you to take my comments as I have taken yours and answer it sentence by sentence. At least then I will feel like you have addressed all my points and not just the ones that suit you.
Isaac Said:quote:
"Well I am trying to help!! H-E-L-P Please read my words and LEARN! Even if you still don't agree. Just LEARN. I offer it up as knowledge."
Oh I'm learning from this (thanks for spelling out help by the way, you managed to add emphasis and be rude and condescending all with 1 word). I'm glad you see fit to help someone who makes as idiodic comments as me, but you have to know your extremely bias. Your filling me full of you propaganda to sway me to your cause so I'll go out and sway other people, and your doing it in the name of educating me. You can say I missed the point all day long, everyone has an ulterior motive whether they've convinced themselves otherwise or not.
Well Isaac, as you have already pointed out, I am a RUDE, NASTY, BRAINWASHING, STUPID, SELF-CENTERED, EGOMANICAL, MEGLOMANICAL, CONDESCENDING, LOSER CRACK-POT!! Hows that for putting words in your mouth. Should it really surprise you I spelled H-E-L-P? What else would an asshole with my traits do? Speaking of condescending, have you read your last paragraph I quoted. The "idiotic comments" to which you refer are the reasons that I am still trying to help.(Notice I didn't spell it) You say I am extremely biased. Well guess what, so are you. You have your beliefs and you are not willing to listen to anything else. I am willing to stop and listen to arguments against my points, only you haven't made any or answered them. I may be biased in my opinions on Indians, but the rest with you continually ignore, are not biased opionions. They are just opinions. MINE!!! If you don't agree, get off your ass and prove to me I am wrong. I am always willing to listen. As evidenced by my continual return to this post. I have offered up NO propoganda. Every bit of information can be cross referenced and footnoted if you like. But I doubt you will take the time to read where I got my info from. I am not making this shit up outta my head. I READ. I have offered suggestions for reading and would be happy to go back and tell you where all the information I have put forth can be found, probably from any public library. Brainwashing is for the weak who have no case. I feel my case is strong enuf to stand up in court. I have no doubts in my info or their sources. You can call it propoganda all you like but make sure you KNOW the difference. And I guess you are right in one of your other points, I do have an ulterior motive. I examined myself and have discovered my ulterior motive is incouraging people to expand the brain they were given and not sit back and take the PROPAGANDA that is forcefed to them daily. So yes I guess I have an ulterior motive. I would love to see a happier, more peaceful, safe, healthy world for all of us. Your ATTITUDE(not your comments)scares me to death. It is shared by far to many people and unfortunately by alot of younger people. We look to the future generation to take care of the country and far as I can see the future generation just doesn't give a fuck. SAD SAD SAD, Glad I will be DEAD soon!!! But while I am here I will do my damnest to change things and stir things up and try to wipe out the apathy I see in your generation.
Isaac Said:quote:
Well Fluffy I'll be looking foreward to more of "no isaac you missed my point" or delightful comments about how stupid my comments are.
Lastly, again I would like to apologize. I looked back over my comments written in haste and frustration and realized that "stupid" was probably the wrong word and certainly could be construed as an insult. I did not mean it that way. I used "stupid" when I should have been using "uninformed". I was not trying to insult you when I called them stupid. I should have slowed down and picked the proper word for my rebuttal. Again I am truly sorry and was not trying to call you or your ideas stupid. If I really thought they or you were stupid would I be spending hours still trying to educate you? If you thought you were stupid and just full of stupid ideas I wouldn't waste my time. The fact that I am still here trying to convey my points should tell you I don't think you or your comments are stupid. Just ill-informed. I hope to change that. Not necessarily to CHANGE YOU. But to get you interested in your world and govt. Do not blindly accept what they tell you. Go and find out for yourself. QUESTION AUTHORITY!!!!
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 03:13:58 AM
shackled their minds when their bent on the cross,
when ignorance raigns life is lost.
-Rage Against The Machine - Township Rebellion
Patriotism is a maggot in their heads. - Henry D. Thoreau |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 03:06:55 AM
Because I am a KIND and CONSIDERATE person, contrary to what Isaac would have you believe about me, I have deleted both The Constitution and The Declaration of Independence from the thread to aid in the speed of loading the page. Anyone interested in reading these 2 IMPORTANT documents may email me and I will be happy to forward copies of them for your perusal. Please take the time to become involved and educate yourself. An INTELLIGENT mind is a POWERFUL tool. An IGNORANT mind is a DANGEROUS one.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 03:00:31 AM
Has nothing to do with being on a pedestal. What I meant was I would not use their arguments(some of which are valid, some not) and only rely on what I personally know and believe. Comments like that, by your own words, make it hard for people like you to listen to what I am saying because a large percentage of the arguments in favor of the things I support are no more than slogans or catch phrases. Some of the people spouting them know very little themselves about the depth of issues. They would rather yell "Legalize Pot" than sit down and try to explain the justification for such a statement and why it truly makes sense for the greater good of society. I choose the other route. Not a better route, just a different route. I consider myself no better than anyone else. In fact if you ask any of my friends, my biggest problem is a very low self opinion of myself. So again, FUCK YOU!!! In a nice way!! I can say that cause I have explained myself and chosen NOT to JUST attack you.
Isaac Said:quote:
Ohhh ouch, SLAM! er ahh good point fluffy I'm learning! (must not have read that carefully enough)
Good to see something got thru.
Isaac Said:quote:
(why do I get the feeling I'm going to get stabbed in the neck with a broken off cd case at the next TR show I see by a frustrated Fluffy hehe).
Sorry to let you down on this one as well Isaac, Unlike YOUR govt, I REFUSE to resort to violence to further MY cause. I choose to do battle with words and knowledge. Hopefully the CHOICE of a new generation.
Isaac Said:quote:
So i could go point to point and quote you and distort what you said and reply but we wouldn't get anywhere.
Isaac Said:quote:
"Well I am trying to help!! H-E-L-P Please read my words and LEARN! Even if you still don't agree. Just LEARN. I offer it up as knowledge."
Oh I'm learning from this (thanks for spelling out help by the way, you managed to add emphasis and be rude and condescending all with 1 word). I'm glad you see fit to help someone who makes as idiodic comments as me, but you have to know your extremely bias. Your filling me full of you propaganda to sway me to your cause so I'll go out and sway other people, and your doing it in the name of educating me. You can say I missed the point all day long, everyone has an ulterior motive whether they've convinced themselves otherwise or not.
I still have to comment on these last 2 little dusys, but I must leave for work so I will comment upon my return. Everyone have a great weekend, including Isaac.
Isaac Said:quote:
You sound unbeleivably vein,
The Vain to which you were referring is actually V-A-I-N I only mention it because you have chosen to criticize my spelling of words to you. But if it makes you feel any better, you are making the "veins" on my head THROB!!!
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/19/2002 : 02:55:28 AM
Isaac Said:quote:
I NEVER denied that indians were oppressed.
And I NEVER implied that you felt that way. But by some of your comments, which I have listed below, You show NO compassion or even any understanding of the plight of the Indians. All I was pointing out was you seem to have all this compassion for other "dregs" of society, and I wanted you to be AWARE of the plight of the Indian. You continually make comments implying that it was in the past and that it isn't really relavent today. I was just letting you know, THEY STILL SUFFER. Your words sound like you are trying to rationalize their treatment or at least belittle it. It SOUNDS TO ME like you are saying, "Everyone suffers so why should I care about the Indians."
Isaac Said:quote:
I'm a christian and while I'm not proud of what my ancestors did to the Indians, were surely not the worst offender when it comes to oppressing/destroying other races and as long as we learn from our bloody history then i don't see why we generations of sensativity later should be hated for it what our ignorant ancestors did.
Isaac Said:quote:
A lot of people get dealt much shittier hands in life then the native americans.
Isaac Said:quote:
I'm not terribly well read up on the native american injustices (so correct me if i say anything horribly ignorant) but I beleive that they aren't forbidden to leave their reservations.
Certainly they are allowed to leave the reservations, but not if they want to live the life they had b4. In the world that was created AROUND them, there is no hope of them ever being able to live the way they like. That option was taken away from them. Of course they could leave the reservation and come live like you and me, but that is not what they want. They want to live the lives of their ancestors. That option has been thoroughly vanquished for them. That is the injustice. We come in and force our way of life and belief system on them.
Isaac Said:quote:
(so correct me if i say anything horribly ignorant)
All I was doing was correcting you, as I was instructed.
Isaac Said:quote:
pcbdmb, ever hear the expression "those who forget the past are condemned to repeated it"?
This comment seems so ironic in contrast to your comments on Indians. You quote this but continue to try and sweep the Indian issue under the carpet. All I ask is that you are aware of the injustices. I am not asking you to feel guilty or correct any of them. If we continue on the path we are on, US society will no nothing of the Indians heritage or past. Every one is so quick to sweep it under the carpet as something that happened in the past and we just need to go on with our lives and forget about it. There is nothing we can do about it now. Yes there is, remember it. Admit that it happened and make sure it doesn't happen again. ANYWHERE
Isaac Said:quote:
its very difficult to talk to someone when they're putting themselves so high above you.
Again, quotes from my comments to back up this comment would be very helpful. I have no idea where you get this. If I felt so "HIGH" above you, I would just write you off and not even try to "come down" to your level. Although I find myself right here with you. In the shit. I really do not see where I have put myself "so high above you".
Isaac Said:quote:
Where the hell are you getting this shit?
If you go back up to where I made this comment I am sure you will see the quote from you that led to this comment.
Isaac Said:quote:
Just like you think we have the greatest gov't on earth, I'm not against Indians here.
Well I do believe we have the greatest govt on earth, I just think it needs alot of repair. Where did I say you were "against" Indians? I just would like you to recognize that they were fucked and STILL are. When you refer to all the other downtrodden suffering people in the world, it sounds like you have some compassion for them and I am not hearing any of that when you talk about Indians. That was my only point.
Isaac Said:quote:
I don't give a shit how why that guy got there,
And maybe the point I am trying to make is that YOU should care. I cannot make you care, but all I am pointing out is that maybe you should stop and look at the world around you and be aware of how these people got like this. "There but for the grace of GOD, go I." To many people in this world are willing to look the other way at the injustices that go on in the world. THAT is a problem. If we forget, it will repeat.
Isaac said:quote:
I'm just trying to say lotsa people got it shitty, why should we single out and elevate any one of them.
I am not asking you to "SINGLE" them out, I am asking you to INCLUDE them. I would like you to show me where I asked you to single them our or elevate them. I was only trying to get you to ADD them. You seem reluctant to recognize their struggle. You have said that you know that the Indians were fucked, but your words make it sound like you really don't give a fuck. That, if it is the case, is very SAD. There are lots of people in life who have been dealt shitty hands and I don't think you can exclude anyone of them. But while you discount the Indians, you make reference to people suffering in other lands. I think if we include them all, we as americans should be more concerned about the injustices here in our own land, (moreso, but not discounting) suffering in foreign lands. True, everyone suffers, and almost everyone has been dealt a shitty hand(with the exception of the lucky few) but YOUR emotions conveyed to me in YOUR words show very little compassion for the Indians. That was again the only point. To educate you to their plight, so hopefully you would feel a little compassion for them, as well as the others you mentioned.
Isaac Said:quote:
Your being nasty as hell Fluff.
I realize my last post may have seemed nasty. It really was not intended this way. If you took it that way, let me apologize. I feel very strongly about ALL the topics we have undertaken here. I am very PASSIONATE about them and all I was trying to do was defend MY points. If I came accross as condescending or something, I am truly SORRY! You may be misreading my frustration as arrogance. Again, tone is so hard to convey in typing. That is why on a number of occasions I suggested a phone conversation. Easier to talk about stuff that way, than the way we have chosen.
Isaac Said:quote:
I'm not saying the Indians were better off conqured. I'm just saying Indians aren't saints either,
just because they were wronged doesn't exempt them from human nature, your people are no more enlightened then us, we just had more people and better technology.
I don't think I ever claimed Indians were saints. All I was trying to convey to you is that they once lived the way THEY wanted to. Which is the way everyone should live. Now that is not an option. They are forced to live in a society they did not create and all I was saying is that they would have been better off if they could have continued to live as they saw fit, and not live as the conquering people saw fit.
Isaac Said:quote:
just because they were wronged doesn't exempt them from human nature, your people are no more enlightened then us, we just had more people and better technology.
I never said it exempted them. They battled, they struggled, they lived on THEIR OWN terms at that time. I think it would have been better if the pilgrims had never shown up and they could have continued to live like they wanted. You can argue for days and days about would have happend IF. IF the pilgrims hadn't shown up, who knows what would have happened. Maybe another conquering people would have and the point would be moot. My only point is that they would have been better off living out THEIR lives THEIR way. As far as your comment about "your people are no more enlightened than us" cannot go any further. This is something we could argue to our grave and we will never change our minds. It is an opinion, and in my opinion, let me say it again, in MY opinion, Indians are far more enlightened than the people in this country now. The Tibetans are far more enlightened, etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. But again, whoever you feel is most enlightened relies to much on your own beliefs and I doubt that everyone could ever see eye to eye on this point. If you believe Indians are not more enlightened, there is no possible way for me to convince you of this. I will state that I believe they are and that is where it should drop. You are entitled to what you believe and I am entitled to what I believe. You do have to concede on point though. That Indians never took more from the land than they gave back. You cannot say that about the conquering people that now rape the land on where the Indians used to live at one with nature. That to me is a representation of enlightenment. I feel the path the Indians were on was a far better one than has now been implemented by the conquering people. Unfortunately we will never know the answer to this question, as the Indians were never given a chance to show how their way was better. Any comments on the possible outcome would be total speculation and conjecture. But I do believe this land would have been better off if the Indians were running it. Again that is strictly my opinion and is only MY specutlation and belief. There is no way to prove it or deny it.
Isaac Said:quote:
Your the one sitting there bitching and not changing anything. I'm the one whose content, and i'm the one who feels like I could change things if I wanted.
First, I am only sitting here trying to educate you to facts. I am out there donating my time and money to the causes I support. I am lucky enuf to be here in the nations capital where I frequently march and put my health and welfare on the line for what I believe. Unfortunately for the reasons I have pointed out in my lengthier posts, the govt seems to be unwilling to listen to or change anything. But "I" keep trying!! I refuse to be content with the shitty hand we(the people, not just Indians) have been dealt. I feel sorry for you that you are "content". That to me is the scariest part of this whole conversation. That you feel everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed.quote:
I could change things if I wanted.
I am both saddened and angered that you are "content" with the state of the govt and affairs in this country. That is the big reason I have undertaken this lengthy debate with you. Hoping to show you that all is not well in this great country of ours. If you believe it is then you need to be given ALL the facts. I guess it would be a whole different story if you have all the facts and still believe that everything is fine. I cannot fault people who know the govt fucks them over on a daily basis and are "content" with that. I just thought you might not be aware of the injustices. If you are and are still content, sorry for sounding like an activist. I was afraid you did not have all the info that is out there and I was just trying to make you aware of the other side of things. The side you won't hear on the news.
Isaac Said:quote:
I could change things if I wanted.
I don't believe this. I have been trying for years and I am afraid it is not as EZ as you think. Hopefully, one day, there will be a topic you feel strongly enuf to get involved with and I hope you will have more success than I have. I am afraid you are more likely to come up against a brick wall when you finally decide to start trying to change things and then maybe you will understand a little bit better where I am coming from and I why I am so frustrated at your complacency. Just so ya know, it is never to early to try and start changing things. I unfortunately believe that the things I am trying to change will never happen in my lifetime, but I continue to fight to hopefully pave the way and make it a little easier for people of your generation to carry on the fight. If we all sit back and "feel content", the govt will change so many things that down the road there will be no hope of righting the past injustices or changing anything. That is why I do what I do.
Isaac Said:quote:
And a bullshit spouting politician could tell me 50,000 ways how the gov't has helped me. Why the fuck should i beleive you? Because your telling me the truth, and you have fact? I'm sure he can spin some facts around for his own bennefit as well.
Again you miss the point entirely. I am not saying that the govt hasn't done some good things. I just don't feel like pointing them out as the govt and the media already has the covered. I just want you to see both sides. Their side and the side they don't want you to see. The hidden, super secret side. The side the media and politicians do not tell you about. You need to be aware of all the facts. I have already said, a number of times, we have the best govt in the world, but that does not mean it could not stand a little change. Our govt does lots of wonderful things but you get to hear about those all the time. I am just sharing the info I have about their seedier side so you can be aware of both sides and not just the "Wonderful Provider" side of our govt.
Isaac said:quote:
Why the fuck should i beleive you?
My answer to this is two-fold. First, just for the record, if you put me along side a politician, I am the one who is going to concede the good points of the govt AND the bad. I am willing to recognize and not try to disguise the good the govt has done to just further my own intentions. The politician on the other hand will do everything within his power to hide the negative so WE THE PEOPLE cannot criticize. That is the major difference. I am will to give both sides, they are not. I just don't feel the need to be defending them in this conversation as your earlier comments have shown you have faith in the govt. I am just trying to give you the other side of the coin. I am not trying to make you hate the govt, I am just trying to make you see that it is not all positive and there is no reason to be content with the way things are. Lets take the GOOD and make it BETTER. Second, and more realistically, I am not asking you to BELIEVE me. I think on many occasions I have encouraged you and others to READ and LEARN for yourselves. I have tried to get you interested in discovering and learning about the govt you so fiercely protect. I would never ask you to take what I have said as gospel. I would hope it would inspire you to go out and read and educate YOURself. I have only laid forth facts in an effort to show you there is another side to your govt and to hopefully inspire you to take an interest in it. Please do not think I am asking you to BELIEVE me. If you doubt my words, GO FIND OUT for yourself. That is all I ever really wanted. To wake others up to the injustices in the world so they would go out and take it upon themselves to get involved in something THEY feel strongly about. A govt is only as good as its people. If you sit back content, they will do everything to take advantage of that and use it in their interest. That kind of attitude makes it easier for them to make decisions for you. They get to feel like a)the public doesn't care what we do, or worse yet b)the public is too stupid to know whats good for them, so we must make the decisions. Unfortunately, I feel that it is B most of the time.
Isaac Said:quote:
Have you ever taken teh devils advocate on a discussion about how much the Gov't sucks?
Many times. When I travel abroad, I have many opportunities to defend our country and our way of life. I do not talk about this because I am not proud of it but I was in the ARMY. I have done my part defending this country and what it believes. I am afraid that because I have only spoken of the negative aspects since that is the side I thought needed to be brought to your attention, that you do not understand how much I love this country. I swore to die for it and I would HAVE. Guess What!! I still think it needs ALOT of work. Unfortunately for you noone has slagged the govt in such a way that I have had to come to its defense here for you to witness. So once again you have spoken without knowing all the facts, and I again have pointed out some new ones to you and I hope you will take them into account and let them figure into your thinking as well.
Isaac Said:quote:
, I guarantee you its hard as fuck to stand up to people like you. I think i've ranted about this before, but my generation is soo fucking easily brainwashed by people like you who can strongly present 1 side of an argument.
This may be the most OFFENSIVE statement you have EVER made to me! I must know: "PEOPLE LIKE ME" You mean people who are educated and willing to look at both sides of an issue and NOT try and FORCE my opinions and beliefs on anyone. If thats what you mean, I guess you are right. How in the fuck can you say I am trying to brainwash. I have provided you with both the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and asked you to read it(the words of your govt) and ask yourself questions. How is that brainwashing. I have encouraged you to read and learn on your own numerous times. I would hardly call that brainwashing. Brainwashing my friend has already happened to you from someone other than me. You are not even willing to read the info provided and arrive at your OWN conclusions which is what I suggested. How is that brainwashing. FUCK YOU!! Sorry to be so bold but that is a personal attack and really uncalled for.quote:
Your being nasty as hell Fluff.
I think you may want to RETHINK WHO is being nasty!!
Isaac Said:quote:
I don't trust any facts you tell me becuase I know how easy it is to say the right words and use my emotions and compassion against me.
GOOD!!!! I never said you should take them at face value, once again I would encourage you to READ and EDUCATE yourself. I never implied or stated that you should go on my word alone. I was just trying to open up a side of the situation that you had obviously never seen or been exposed to. Now that you have been I would hope that you would take it upon yourself to go out and FIND out about issues and way your govt operates and come to your OWN conclusions. By the way, brainwashers DO NOT advocate this kind of behavior. I DO!!!
Isaac Said:quote:
I think its kinda sad that its gotten to the point that I've grown so jaded towards peoples causes that I'll fight with anyone about anything these days.
Very possibly the first whole sentence of yours that I completely agree with!!!
Isaac Said:quote:
. And I know you can twist all this around to saying that i've been brainwashed by the gov't or something like that, and that'd be way easier then actually spending some time thinking about what I'M saying and where I'M going with this argument.
I don't think I have done either of the things to which you accuse me here. LMK if I am wrong. I would hope as evidenced by quoting EACH sentence of your post and answering it directly, you will see I AM spending some time thinking about what YOUR saying. I would hope you would do the same instead of just picking out what you feel are attacks on you and IGNORING all my other points. You have barely commented on any of my points except the ones that you feel are attacking you personally. It seems to me you are just looking for an argument and you read thru my posts with no interest in my points on govt, taxes, legalization, etc etc and spend all your time on these supposed attacks on you. I am not attacking you. I am trying to open your eyes to another side of life. I hope you will slow down and stop taking everything so personally long enuf to recognize my OTHER points.
Isaac Said:quote:
hehe that made me happy, though again it shows how high a pedastle you put yoruself on, even over people who agree with you.[/quote]
CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Isaac |
Posted - 01/17/2002 : 09:48:37 AM
"U implying that I quote you and then distort what you say. "
Absolutly, I'll try to give you some examples but I'm your you'll miss those too.
"I am not trying to CONVINCE you of anything. I am merely providing facts to SHOW you that this oppression you seem to think is over is still a matter of daily life for the Indians of this country. Isaac said:"
I NEVER denied that indians were oppressed.
"IF you you feel guilty that is your own doing and it is your moral side answering in a way it feels is the proper reaction. GUILT is all on you my friend. "
I made it very clear that I WASN'T guilty nor could be made guilty.
"am trying to give you info that you obviously never had before so you don't make stupid comments like that"
I coudl go on and on about how much I love those type comments. Its really easy to dominate an argument when you just keep putting down the other person's comments. You sound unbeleivably vein, its very difficult to talk to someone when they're putting themselves so high above you.
"You seem to have some compassion for these dregs but when it comes to the Indians you seem to think very little of them"
Where the hell are you getting this shit? Just like you think we have the greatest gov't on earth, I'm not against Indians here. I don't give a shit how why that guy got there, I'm just trying to say lotsa people got it shitty, why should we single out and elevate any one of them. You TOTALLY missed what I was saying, and you manage to make ME feel stupid for not explaining it well enough. But when I don't reply sufficiently to yours its STILL my fault. Your being nasty as hell Fluff.
"I will not even justify this paragraph with a comment. I think you are letting your anger get the best of you. Even you can read this and SEE just how ridiculous it is. I feel I have made my point. "
Again you must not have gotten what I was saying, many apologies for my half assed exlpination. I'm not saying the Indians were better off conqured. I'm just saying Indians aren't saints either, just because they were wronged doesn't exempt them from human nature, your people are no more enlightened then us, we just had more people and better technology.
"You with all your "Its too big a task to change anything"
Your the one sitting there bitching and not changing anything. I'm the one whose content, and i'm the one who feels like I could change things if I wanted. Your putting words into my mouth and yelling at me for it.
"That was a suggestion so you as an AMERICAN could see just how your govt walks all over you on a daily basis"
And a bullshit spouting politician could tell me 50,000 ways how the gov't has helped me. Why the fuck should i beleive you? Because your telling me the truth, and you have fact? I'm sure he can spin some facts around for his own bennefit as well.
"This is an idiotic statement. "
MWAH love ya Fluffy, feeling like were getting somewhere now!
"Taking an opposite viewpoint can be a very good thing for a discussion. Otherwise it can get very one-sided. "
Have you ever taken teh devils advocate on a discussion about how much the Gov't sucks?
"The problem with your statement is that you say you disagree with the majority"
Granted in a whole country where the majority is middle aged white males your right I'm in the majority. But on this message board and ESPECIALLY in Madison Wisconsin fucking hippie capitol of the world, I guarantee you its hard as fuck to stand up to people like you. I think i've ranted about this before, but my generation is soo fucking easily brainwashed by people like you who can strongly present 1 side of an argument. THATS my whole reason for fighting you so hard on this shit, I don't trust any facts you tell me becuase I know how easy it is to say the right words and use my emotions and compassion against me. I think its kinda sad that its gotten to the point that I've grown so jaded towards peoples causes that I'll fight with anyone about anything these days. And I know you can twist all this around to saying that i've been brainwashed by the gov't or something like that, and that'd be way easier then actually spending some time thinking about what I'M saying and where I'M going with this argument.
"I have ignored the other idiotic comments made on my behalf "
hehe that made me happy, though again it shows how high a pedastle you put yoruself on, even over people who agree with you.
"Should I be surprised when even reading something 15 pages is too big a task."
Ohhh ouch, SLAM! er ahh good point fluffy I'm learning! (must not have read that carefully enough)
"Well I am trying to help!! H-E-L-P Please read my words and LEARN! Even if you still don't agree. Just LEARN. I offer it up as knowledge."
Oh I'm learning from this (thanks for spelling out help by the way, you managed to add emphasis and be rude and condescending all with 1 word). I'm glad you see fit to help someone who makes as idiodic comments as me, but you have to know your extremely bias. Your filling me full of you propaganda to sway me to your cause so I'll go out and sway other people, and your doing it in the name of educating me. You can say I missed the point all day long, everyone has an ulterior motive whether they've convinced themselves otherwise or not.
Well Fluffy I'll be looking foreward to more of "no isaac you missed my point" or delightful comments about how stupid my comments are. Keep on trucking cheif (why do I get the feeling I'm going to get stabbed in the neck with a broken off cd case at the next TR show I see by a frustrated Fluffy hehe).
3----------------------->
Isaac |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/16/2002 : 3:29:21 PM
Isaac said:quote:
I feel the same way about your responses
I really don't see how you can say that. I have prefaced each of my comments with your comment that sparked my comment. Each is a direct answer/response to the comment(s) you made. Isaac said:quote:
So i could go point to point and quote you and distort what you said and reply but we wouldn't get anywhere.
RU implying that I quote you and then distort what you say. THOSE are YOUR words my friend. Quoted back to you. If you feel they are distorted that is the way YOU typed them. I have not said ONE thing in common with your words, so how could I possible be distorting YOUR words.Isaac said:quote:
If your trying to convince me that my ancestors did a shitty thing by stealing the indians land, then you don't have to I agree with that.
I am not trying to CONVINCE you of anything. I am merely providing facts to SHOW you that this oppression you seem to think is over is still a matter of daily life for the Indians of this country. Isaac said:quote:
If your trying to make me feel guilty about what my ancestors did, then its not going to work because I don't feel the need to apologize for them anymore then I'd expect some German foreign exchange student to apologize to my jewish ass for the holocaust.
I am CERTAINLY NOT trying to make you feel guilty. IF you you feel guilty that is your own doing and it is your moral side answering in a way it feels is the proper reaction. GUILT is all on you my friend. I again am merely laying forth facts to educate you. I have no ulterior motives behind my statements other than to correct YOUR comments which by your own admission are not very educated. So look at it as education. I could care less if you feel guilty. There is nothing for YOU to feel guilty about. But I bet the next time someone talks about Indian atrocities you will chime it with "You know that kinda stuff still goes on!" instead of "that was a long time ago blah blah blah". Imagine how you would feel if I said the Jews got what they deserved or the Jews should have stood up for themselves better, they just rolled over and let the Germans exterminate them. Of course none of us believe that because we have had a serious education in the holocaust. Thanx to TV, movies and even school. Well everyones education is a little lacking when it comes to the Indians. I am trying to give you info that you obviously never had before so you don't make stupid comments like that. Education conquers the ignorant mind. The closed mind is blind to the facts. So I could care less if you feel guilty about it or if you give money to help or if you even give a fuck. Makes no difference to me except that I would hope you would hold the Indians in the same regard as you seem to holdquote:
That poor guy who sleeps on the bench in the park across the street from me and digs through my garbage when I put it out. All those starving Somalians, Women who can's learn or show their faces in public, Afgahn kids who make bricks for 10 hours a day for a nickle.
You seem to have some compassion for these dregs but when it comes to the Indians you seem to think very little of them. Wheres the "poor" Indian who sleeps on a park bench in the park across the street from your house and digs through your trash, and all those starving Indians, Indian kids who make NO money for making the same brick. Remember them as well as the other wretched refuse you seem to have compassion for and generally feel like they got a bum deal. I don't hear that in your voice for the Indians. I get the feeling you think they brought it on themselves. Well you have compassion for all the other down-and-outs in the world. What about the down-and-outs right here at home. Don't forget about them. That is all I am trying to CONVINCE you of. Isaac said:quote:
at leat you've made me somewhat aware of the poor Native Americans (which if that was your intentions you've suceeded to a point).
Then I feel I have succeeded on 1 front, still 8,000 more to go.
Isaac said:quote:
This may also sound dickish, but you tell me that the Native Americans would've been any better off today if we hadn't conqured them? I'd find it hard to beleive that the Indians were at peace before we showed up, there was tons of horrific disgusting acts of violence between the tribes before we even showed up, I've seen Last of the Mohican's I know what its like (sorry just trying to loosen you up and remind you that were all friends here). Whose to say if we hadn't conqured the Indians they wouldn't have destroyed themselves, or if 100 years later they wouldn't have gotten on big steele boats and come over to europe and conqured us. Its human nature to do such things, don't go putting your people above that just because they didn't have the technology to eradicate us which they would've gladly done.
I will not even justify this paragraph with a comment. I think you are letting your anger get the best of you. Even you can read this and SEE just how ridiculous it is. I feel I have made my point. Either you get or you never will. I promise not to bring up Indians again if you WON'T. Now onto the govt!
Did you read anything I wrote above. How in the world do you think I was only talking about Indians. The basic and overall theme of this conversation was and has been the nature of the govt you so fearlessly protect. The Indians just happen to be a good example, as does John Lennon, the marijuana issue, the tax issue, the secret FBI agenda, etc etc etc. I only harp on the Indians because you kept slagging them. My mission is this is to help you realize that your govt is not the end all + be all that you think it is. Again, I state for the record, It is the BEST govt in the world!! But that does not mean it does not need some changing. Its as if you and I sat down to dinner together and the meal was DIRT and DOG SHIT. We would have to say that one obviously tastes BETTER than the other, but just because one is better does not mean I want to eat it for the rest of my life. Dirt(US govt) tastes better than Dog Shit(other govts) but I don't want to settle for either one. I want mine tasting like Cheese and Macaroni and that is gonna take change. Change, by your own words, can only come from the people. Well if the people fail to recognize that change is needed, then how is it gonna come? So you are telling me I should sit idly by while I have info that needs to be shared witht he world(including you). I cannot sit by and listen to you spout BS I know is not true. I take your points and 1 by 1 and address(distort) them. Isaac said:quote:
You also have to understand Fluffy, your very passionate about this because it pertains directly to you. This is just a friendly conversation to me, and I'm not interested enough to read 15 pages of legislation
I assume you meant the subject of Indians since you said it pertains directly to me and you are not interested enuf to read 15 pages of legislation. I am sorry you completely missed the point. Reading the Declaration of Independence and reading the Constitution has NOTHING to do with the Indians. That was a suggestion so you as an AMERICAN could see just how your govt walks all over you on a daily basis. Show me in that 15 pages where they have the right or priviledge to tell you you can't smoke pot. But you are content to go about your way and let them fine you and make you a criminal when they have no real leg to stand on. They have decided for you that THEY know what is best for YOU! I hope YOU are happy with their decisions. I for one am not. You with all your "Its too big a task to change anything". Should I be surprised when even reading something 15 pages is too big a task. All I am asking you to do is THINK. If you are happier letting the govt do that for you, that is your decision. I cannot make you THINK. You have got to want to think and want to take control of your own destiny.
Isaac said:quote:
I always take the hard argument and disagree with the majority no matter what the point being made is
This is an idiotic statement. I understand what you meant to say and I respect that. I often play devils advocate in a discussion. Taking an opposite viewpoint can be a very good thing for a discussion. Otherwise it can get very one-sided. The problem with your statement is that you say you disagree with the majority. Well my friend, as much as you may hate to have this pointed out to you. YOU ARE IN THE MAJORITY. If you weren't then the changes I have discussed would already be breaking YOUR back. As it stands, I am the MINORITY(and I don't mean INDIAN)I am arguing points you couldn't find 100 people in your neighborhood who would agree with me. You are going to have to face the hard cold truth that your views are very mainstream, I am sorry to say. Mainstream is the MAJORITY, and that is where your beliefs stand. Last time I checked, Libertarians were in the MINORITY and republicans and democrats were the MAJORITY. Notice I did not capitalize republicans and democrats as I did Libertarians. Neither in my book, in this day and age deserve the courtesy of capitalization. Our govt is often referred to as a 2 party system. How many parties outside of the repukelicans and democraps can you name? Guess what? That is because WE are the MINORITY. I know you would love to think of yourself as oppressed because you are Sooo different. Well honestly speaking, you share the views of the MAJORITY. I want to change the MAJORITY view and have them slide over to the MINORITY so that the MINORITY BECOMES the MAJORITY. Then there will truly be some change.
Isaac said:quote:
I'm not saying I dont' beleive the things I'm saying, but relize that I'm kinda on my own in this argument against the rest of the board so its easy for you to just overwhelm me because I'm not that smart or well read and I'm sure I'm missing good points left and right.
Well Isaac, I don't see anyone here but you and me. I have ignored the other idiotic comments made on my behalf and have chosen to take this to YOU. I am not trying to overwhelm you, although I realize I may have. You said "I am not that smart or well read". Well I am trying to help!! H-E-L-P Please read my words and LEARN! Even if you still don't agree. Just LEARN. I offer it up as knowledge. I pass on things I thought you might not be aware of and that I thought you might like to know to HELP you make your own informed decision based on the facts. You have shown that you did not have all the facts. I have tried to give you some. You seem unwilling to read or accept the alternative info for whatever reason. I am not saying you are WRONG, I am just saying you are young and need more INFO to make a better more INFORMED decision. Don't rest on what the govt and your parents tell you. Seek out knowledge. Educate yourself and the fight the system where you see it is not working for you. CHANGE THINGS!! Don't stick your head in the sand and let the govt walk all over you. None of THIS has anything to do with INDIANS. It has alot more to do with EDUCATING ISAAC.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Isaac |
Posted - 01/16/2002 : 10:42:54 AM
"Hey Isaac, I have taken the time to try and answer your points one by one. Hope you will take the time to read what I posted in the above POSTS because based on your responses you either did not get my meaning or you didn't even read it fully."
When I think of something, and write it down I can't stream what I'm thinking directly into text, it needs to be more or less translated into writing. Then when you read it yoru mind has to again inturpret the text and feed it to your brain and then your resulting thoughts are inturpreted into text and to make a long story short there's a lot of room for misunderstandings.
I feel the same way about your responses, were both off on our own tangents and they just happen to be bouncing off each other from time to time.
So i could go point to point and quote you and distort what you said and reply but we wouldn't get anywhere. So I'm going to take a step back, where are you going with this whole Native American conversation?
If your trying to convince me that my ancestors did a shitty thing by stealing the indians land, then you don't have to I agree with that.
If your trying to make me feel guilty about what my ancestors did, then its not going to work because I don't feel the need to apologize for them anymore then I'd expect some German foreign exchange student to apologize to my jewish ass for the holocaust.
If your trying to get me to donate money or time to your cause then good luck, I'm not vested enough in anyone's plight to deny myself the living I've grown acustomed to. That may sound extremely shallow but most of you are no better, and I could be much worse at leat you've made me somewhat aware of the poor Native Americans (which if that was your intentions you've suceeded to a point).
Whose worse off then the Native American's? That poor guy who sleeps on the bench in the park across the street from me and digs through my garbage when I put it out. All those starving Somalians, Women who can's learn or show their faces in public, Afgahn kids who make bricks for 10 hours a day for a nickle. There's always someone who has it worse, you'd drive yourself crazy trying to help them all. And if I were to get an excess of money or some motivation to help people in the future, I doubt I'd start with the Native American's.
This may also sound dickish, but you tell me that the Native Americans would've been any better off today if we hadn't conqured them? I'd find it hard to beleive that the Indians were at peace before we showed up, there was tons of horrific disgusting acts of violence between the tribes before we even showed up, I've seen Last of the Mohican's I know what its like (sorry just trying to loosen you up and remind you that were all friends here). Whose to say if we hadn't conqured the Indians they wouldn't have destroyed themselves, or if 100 years later they wouldn't have gotten on big steele boats and come over to europe and conqured us. Its human nature to do such things, don't go putting your people above that just because they didn't have the technology to eradicate us which they would've gladly done.
Bah I was attempting to stay away from ranting like this!
You also have to understand Fluffy, your very passionate about this because it pertains directly to you. This is just a friendly conversation to me, and I'm not interested enough to read 15 pages of legislation. I also realize that I'm probably the only pro Gov't person on this board or anywhere between the age of 15-25 for that matter. I'm also one of the few people you'll meet who will argue with a native american about the atrocities that have been done to them. Its my nature to "piss into the wind" so to speak, I always take the hard argument and disagree with the majority no matter what the point being made is, it keeps me on my toes. I'm not saying I dont' beleive the things I'm saying, but relize that I'm kinda on my own in this argument against the rest of the board so its easy for you to just overwhelm me because I'm not that smart or well read and I'm sure I'm missing good points left and right. So try to have a little sympathy there.
3----------------------->
Isaac |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/16/2002 : 05:22:51 AM
I realized that there is a good chance not everyone has read these documents. So I have enclosed them for all to read. I would like you then to think of some of our laws and find the justification for them in these documents. I believe that alot of you will feel they are not worth your time to read, but as they are the basis for YOUR govt you should be familiar. If you choose it is not in your interest to read these, pardon me for trying to help you understand YOUR govt a little better, and continue to live with your head in the sand and HOPE for the best. Good Luck!!
ps: I have read them and keep copies on my hard drive for reference. They are not the most exciting reading, but they are informative and enlightening. The govt hopes fewer people will read them and be less aware of their words as this apathy makes it easier for the govt to inact laws and make rules and regulations with very few words of opposition. You can not question what you don't know. So as long as you are uneducated on these subjects the more unjust laws they can inact and put in place on a supposedly FREE PEOPLE! But if the FREE PEOPLE do not question their decisions then the govt is FREE to trample all over YOUR freedom.
I had a button I acquired at school during my punk rock daze, It said "Question Authority". I put it on my leather jacket and didn't really think anymore about it, Till I got home. I remember thinking to myself, my dad is gonna have a hissy fit when he sees this button. Much to the contrary, he praised my choice of a button and sat down and talked to me to make sure I understood it. Since then I try to question everything. Take nothing for granted. Be the Creator of your own destiny. Do not let the political hogs run your life.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| TRent |
Posted - 01/16/2002 : 04:57:27 AM
Almost anyone who has read the bible knows that throughout the book there are apparent contradictions and inconsistencies. More than a few posts on this board have addressed this problem and by and large, nobody seems to have all the answers with regards to resolving these issues.
Some suggest that misinterpretation is at fault. Some suggest that the bible is just an inconsistent work of fiction.
Additionally, it has been suggested on this board that a modern, educated, faith is one that might be controversial in light of traditional, or literalist teachings. I agree with such a suggestion and as a student of reason hold many controversial views myself about what the bible may have to say.
... So, I will expound for you all just what I think is going on when we encounter inconsistency or contradiction in the bible.
Normally, (and without always realizing it) we reason using what is known as a bivalent, or classical conception of logic. This means that a given statement is either true or it is false. This gives rise to many logical rules like the law of non-contradiction, the law of excluded middle, and many other rules which govern what can be inferred from a given set of statements. This is all well and good when one deals with a purely logical language like the sentential calculus, or the predicate calculus, but when we try to map natural language onto a precise symbolic one, we sometimes run into inconsistency.
When this happens, logicians ordinarily chalk such errors up to faulty translation, equivocation, or extraneous meaning embedded in the context of an entire sentence that cannot be mapped by using (for example) a single atomic proposition.
Less often, logicians controversially suggest that reason itself my not be inherently bivalent. I take this stance, and I believe that is why the bible can contradict itself, and yet still remain unneringly true.
In case I have lost anyone with technical phrases, I will give an example of what I mean.
Consider the barber who shaves all people who do not shave themselves. Does such a barber shave himself, or doesn't he?
Well, it seems that if he does, he mustn't, but if he doesn't, then he must!!!?
Ordinarily, logicians argue that such a barber cannot exist by virtue of the self-referencing contradiction involved. It seems that if the statement "this barber shaves himself" is TRUE, then we can imply the the statement is also FALSE.
... And the traditional logic we were all raised with tells us that such a state cannot exist in nature.
I say it can. Now, I cannot imagine how exactly this barber could exist, but there are many other similar situations where contradiction seems to occur rationally in the world. Quantum wave particle duality is an example of this, as well as set theoretic paradoxes in mathematics, or for that matter, in staements about future contingent propositions that we cannot assign a truth value to meaningfully.
Now what does this have to do with the bible?
I think that contradictions that occur may be simply a way of conveying the inherent paraconsistency of of some of the bible's claims. Perhaps killing is right and wrong. Perhaps god is eternally merciful and capable of vengeance. Perhaps god is unfailingly benevolent and allows evil in the world.
How can these statements be true? Because god is no less subtle than the universe he placed us into. If particles can be both particles and non-particles why can god not be both forgiving and punishing. We may not understand it, but most of us do not understand transfinite set theoretic paradoxes eirther. Nevertheless, they exist, paradoxical though they may be.
The important thing to understand is that the structure of valid reasoning may allow these contradictions and still not be wrong.
Life, loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it. |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/16/2002 : 04:39:26 AM
Hey Isaac, I have taken the time to try and answer your points one by one. Hope you will take the time to read what I posted in the above POSTS because based on your responses you either did not get my meaning or you didn't even read it fully.quote:
Yes there is. You and Fluffy both missed my point I'm not comparing body counts I'm simply saying its silly and wrong to hate a people because of what their ancestors did.
Please show me where I said I hated someone because of what their ancestors did. If anything I was pointing out that people need to remember what their ancestors did and to not hide the fact that this country was built on bloodshed at the hands of the MASTER RACE. If I hated people for this reason I would hate all of you, for I suppose, with very few exceptions, everyone on this board is of the conquering MASTER RACE. I only know of a few Indians on the board. Myself included. I AGREE that it is wrong to hate for the behavior of those that came b4, but I also believe we need to remember the past and recognize the past. Lets say the local govt where you live came in and FORCIBLY removed you and your family from your home and forced you to live in a park. Then they turn the house into a school and "somehow" forget to mention how they acquired said school and started referring to you as that "troublesome Isaac" who just keeps spouting off about "so-called" injustices. And all your friends and neighbors kept telling you to just shut up about it and then 10 years from now you are still bitching and everyone keeps telling you "ITS IN THE PAST", just forget about it, whats done is done. I don't think you would take it so lightly my friend.quote:
There's another point to be made here, if any of you had happened to be born in those times you would've been out there shooting the natives with the rest of them, same if you were a German.
Just for the record, if I had been born in those times I would have been one of the INDIANS slaughtered for standing up to the murderous newcomers. I would have been one of the "SAVAGES" so pleasantly referred to in YOUR history books. Where are the history books that show OUR heros. I challenge you to find it in your school books. The only place the MASTER RACE really owns up is in its title for the "Massacre at Woulded Knee". Indians are fondly referred to as the ones who constatly hindered westward expansion. You will mind many Indian attacks that ended with Indians winning referred to in history books as massacres. It is all in your perspective or point of view and I am here to make sure no one forgets that THE INDIANS were not the BAD GUYS as the movies so love to make them out to be. We were resisting the insurgence. Freedom Fighters if you will. America loves its freedom fighters all over the world fighting for freedom not to be enslaved by foreign regimes. But when you are a freedom fighter in this country, you are referred to as an uncivilized savage. Do yo get my point? 2 sides NEITHER should be forgotten. Indian history is only recognized by Indians for the most part. Yet we are put in schools when we try to "come live with the rest of you" and taught that our ancestors were "savages" and almost every aspect of our beliefs and lives are constantly degraded. They do not teach that alot of YOUR govt and especially the Constitution are based on Indian practices. A little careful research on your part will reveal to you that most of what you call YOUR govt has it's roots in something called the "Iroquois Federation". FACT!! If we are such "savages" then why the hell would you base your form of govt on ours? Answer, because we were not "uncivilized savages". We had govts of our own and we were conquered. The USA would look ridiculous if they told the world their govt was based on the Indians, after touting to the world what a bunch of uncivilized, murderous, savages we were supposed to be.quote:
I guess what i'm trying to say is were all oppressed to various degrees.
Yes we are, by the GOVT, you so fearlessly protect.quote:
A lot of people get dealt much shittier hands in life then the native americans.
List please! In all my reading, in the USA, Indians are at the bottom of the social and economic ladder. Yes there are others in similar situations, but I am pretty sure that Indians are at the bottom. Those "dealt much shittier hands" are usually dealt those hands by the govt which sends millions around the world while neglecting their own problems at home. Which is one of the reasons I am so against the taxation system as it stands. Please read my above posts for details, which I have already laid out on this matter. Fuck it, I will make this as easy for you as possible. Since I don't think you are taking the time to read what I have already written.quote:
The tax system in this country sucks. The "poor" pay way to much, while big business and the millionaires get all the breaks. Those who are least able to pay are forced to pay a larger percentage of their income taking food out of their families mouths and in some cases roofs from over their heads. Sending them into the welfare system(which I don't even want to get into). Plus the taxes are then used how they see fit with no concern or imput from the people who are paying the taxes. If I could tell them where to spend my taxes I would be more than happy to pay my share. Instead they TAKE my taxes and wage war in foreign countries, give it strait out to OTHER countries while we have people starving and living on the streets right here at home. There has to be a better, fairer system. Our govt spends far too much money on things I don't think they should be spending it on.
Isaac said:quote:
I just see us all as a bunch of fat wealthy assholes standing around going "yup what we did was wrong, yup damn us" when anyone of us could be donating money, or time to indian rights organizations or writing congressmen or even visiting reservervations and helping famalies, shit like that. We're only interested in talking about the problem though.
I would love to see this happen. I already donate money and time to the organizations I support. I would love to see you join in as well as everyone else. I would love for you to visit a reservation 1st hand and come back and give me your views then. And I don't just mean visiting their casino. Go see how they live. Talk to them and find out their concerns and beliefs. I challenge you all to get more involved in YOUR world and YOUR govt. So far all I see is "talking about the problems". Unfortunately, not a whole lot of LISTENING going on. I challenge you to go back and address my points. I feel I have made very convincing and intelligent points. I do not expect everyone will agree, but I would like to know that you at least understand the point I made. Which, so far, has not happened! Isaac said:quote:
Okay as for the drug issue, first off if i got busted with pot 3 times I hope I'd be thinkng about quiting just because I'm an idiot and its costing me lots of money. Once you get busted you have to realize that your risking more everytime you smoke pot after that, and if you get busted twice your risking even MORE smoking up. Its meant to be a sobering slap in the face which the gov't hopes to scare you away from pot, and it DOES work sometimes i've seen 1st hand.
It's costing YOU lots of money. Well guess what? Your pot use is costing ME alot of money. It is people like you that the govt is spending MY money on to erradicate. This is bullshit. I have no concern over the casual user. That SHOULD be a personal choice with NO govt intervention. Aren't you the least bit outraged that you have had to pay fines for the 3 times you were busted for smoking pot? Do you actual believe the govt and police are justified in levying these fines and possible jail time against you for something that should so clearly be a personal choice protected by the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. The following are the words of YOUR govt Isaac:quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I particularly like the "Life, Libery, and the Pursuit of Happiness" line. Now were exactly does in either the constitution or the declaration of independence does it give permission to the govt to be MY moral conscience? For them to make decisions on MY or YOUR personal choices that do not affect anyone else. Again I want to quote Thomas Jefferson, "The only legitamate purpose of A government,is to protect ME from YOU and vice versa." We know who they are protecting in the "DRUG WAR", themselves!
Fluffy Said:quote:
I am not saying to stop trying to stop drug dealers from peddling to children. We all know and want them off the streets but you my friend, how are you endangering children with your pot use? Is it right that you cannot smoke if you want to? That should be a right that is given to you by the constitution as a free man. Not taken away by the govt because they think it is dangerous and you can't handle it. Which is actually only the reason they give the public. Really it is economic. Ending the drug war and locking up less individual users takes money out of their pockets. Less money next year when govt starts shelling out the portions. You have heard of the budget. Well if you don't use the money they give you this year you don't get it next year and you certainly don't get more. Also there are big corporate interests at work here that don't want alternative energy sources being used because it will drive their prices down and create competition. Do you think they want to lose money. An organization called H.E.M.P.(Help End Marijuana Prohibition) offered a $100,000 challenge to the world to prove them wrong. Here it is: If all the fossil fuels and their derivatives, as well as trees for paper and construction were banned in order to save the planet, reverse the Greenhouse Effect and stop deforestation; THEN there is only one known annually renewable source that is capable of providing the overall majority of the world's paper and textiles, meet all of the worlds transportation, industrial, and home energy needs, while simultaneously reducing pollution, rebuilding the soil, and cleaning the atmosphere all at the same time....
And that substance is-the same one that did it all before-Cannabis Hemp...Marijuana! http://www.jackherer.com
Cannibas Hemp was legal tender(money) in most of the Americas from 1631-until the early 1800's. Why? To encourage American farmers to grow more.
You could pay your taxes with cannibas hemp throughout America for over 200 years!
You could be jailed in America for not growing cannabis during several periods of shortage, e.g.,in Virginia between 1763 and 1767.
Benjamin Franklin started one of Americas first paper mills with cannabis. This allowed America to have a free colonial press without having to beg or justify the need for paper and books from England.
There are cities all over the country named for the fact that they were HEMP producing areas. Like Hempstead, Long Island. Which I think is near Jon Soldo.
Hemp is overall, the strongest, most-durable, longest-lasting natural soft-fiber ont he planet. It's leaves and flower tops were-depending on the culture-the first second or third most important and most used medicines for 2/3 of worlds people for at least 3000 years, until the turn of the century. Hemp is, by far, Earth's premier, renewable natural resource. This is why HEMP is so very important.
Just so ya know, I don't even smoke pot. I am an advocate on a whole different level. I do believe people should have the right to smoke pot, unobstructed. I do believe that if you want to smoke a joint in your house(or wherever) that you should be able to, BUT if you go out drive a car and hurt innocent people while on it, THEN you should be punished. Again, I believe the only legitimate purpose of a govt is to protect you from me and me from you. You are so worried about he drug dealers well if you legalize it, you put them out of business. No more dealers on the street. When was the last time you saw some guy on the street trying to sell you some cigarettes. If it is legal, the govt can tax it(like cigarettes), putting more money into the economy which is already struggling to make ends meet and you take the dealers off the street because you take away their clients and market. Everyone who chooses to buy it, knows what they are getting, instead of buying it from some anonymous street drug dealer who could have done god knows what to it.
Isaac said:quote:
Okay here's my theory on why pot is illegal and booze isn't. Pot robs you of your ambition where alcohol does not.
Show me the proof. I have lots of friends who smoke pot and run totally productive lives. They have families and homes and jobs and I have seen far more destructive effects by way of alcohol. Just look to your own experiences in the other posts. When was the last time pot made you forget what you did last night. I do not buy this argument as well. I want facts if you are gonna make a statement like that. I think it is totally lucicrous and I can come up with govt proof that "pot is far less destructive to the body than alcohol". These words coming from countless govt investigations and research. The govt just chooses not to listen to the people THEY pay to do the investigating. It is not in their interest to legalize. That is why it is still not legal. But I am willing to hear any arguments you have to the contrary, just make sure you have facts, not just statements that are just govt lines they want the public to BELIEVE.
Isaac said:quote:
Thats why when booze was made illegal the outcry was so strong that gov't had no choice but to reverse it a few years later. If potheads were half that outspoken then pot would've been made legal long ago.
Again I would request that you consult your history books on this one. Doah, bad idea since it gives the same version I am trying to fight. Anyway, RU really trying to tell me that you believe if the outcry were great enuf they would actually legalize it? Sorry you are saddly mistaken. The govt outlawed alcohol for very specific reasons that was very easy after a short amount of time to say it had been a mistake. Legalization of pot would be far to hard because they would have to admit all their lies for the world to see over a almost 50 year war against the "DRUG". Herein, lies the beginning. By making sure we all call pot a "DRUG" we already have it subliminally planted in the brain as a negative thing. I really believe that. Very few people refer to alcohol as a "DRUG", so in our minds it is not thought of as SO destructive. It is also so prevalent. It is everywhere. In ads, at sporting events, etc etc. Pot is LESS harmful than alcohol, and if it was as visible and not condemned the way it is, people would not think of it the way you do. As some DESTRUCTIVE force that will reek havoc on our society. That is what the govt would like you to believe. I have laid for many facts to the contrary, alot of which come from the govt that has so many BAD things to say about it.(See Above)
Isaac said:quote:
The problem is the only people who have anything intellegent to say about pot's legalization are those rare individuals like fluffy who don't actually smoke it.
Oh how I wish I could accept that comment. Most of the people at the NORML organization are lawyers. You should check out some of their arguments. Much better than mine. In fact alot of my info and belief come from them. There is another problem that I think you are overlooking. In a society where it is against the law to smoke, grow, or even possess, pot, most individuals cannot speak out for fear of retribution from their jobs, govt, police, etc etc. The fear of losing everything for speaking out for what you believe is directly attributable to the govt, and that is the way they like it. I aim to change non-users minds because we are the ones who can speak out without the SAME fear of retribution. There are many examples of the govt "shutting people up" because they spoke out against the system. John Lennon is the most visible example. I refer you to the book, "Gimme Some Truth:The John Lennon FBI Files" by Jon Wiener, to which I refered in my post just above this one. A clear and shining example of the govt extending its powers into the illegal because they did not like what someone said. ie: John Lennon. They waged a 14 year legal battle to hide what they had done to John Lennon(which was to watch and use any avenue, legal or otherwise, to deport him for his comments against the war in Vietnam and the govt supporting it) illegally for over almost 3 years as evidenced by existing FBI files. They hid them and fought to hide them in court under the grounds of "NATIONAL SECURITY". How ridiculous. After a 14 year legal battle, that the govt lost, they had to turn over the files that showed, more than anything else, the illegal means, and govt improprieties, that they has undergone in their effort to solve the "Lennon Problem".(I think it is ironically funny and scary that everytime the govt sees something as speaking out against them, which is protected by the constitution, they label it "A PROBLEM" to be erradicated. I would prefer it if they would listen and maybe learn and do something WE THE PEOPLE want, instead of what they think is best in our interest) It basically made the govt look bad. So they labeled the documents "National Security" which means, in the govt and the FBI's own words, "release of foreign government information in the Lennon file could LEAD TO FOREIGN MILITARY RETALLIATION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES." To truly understand how ridiculous and underhanded this is you must see the documents that were finally released. My point is that the govt says and does what it has to protect its own interests, with no regard for the legality or results of their actions. When we the people want to know what has gone on, the govt tries to hide behind phrases like "National Security" so they will not look bad or we will not find out what improprieties they have been up to. YOUR GOVERNMENT, my friend. I only throw out the matter of JL as an example, I by no means want to change the subject of this post, so for more info on this go get the book. It will really change the way you look at your govt. Hey Isaac, do you know what your FBI file says? I bet not, and I bet you would be surprised to find out exactly how hard it would be to get that info from them. The same govt that is supposed to be protecting you, looking out for you and your interests. YOUR government. BE AWARE! should be our motto not BEWARE! when discussing our govt. Hopefully someone more aware will be there when the govt runs amok at your expense.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/16/2002 : 02:27:04 AM
I would first ask b4 there are any more responses to this topic that you read it from the top. I just read a paragraph in a book that pretty much encapsulates my feelings on the govt and the way they operate to this day.quote:
......about the ways the Reagan, Bush, and Clinton administrations resisted the requirements of the FOIA(Freedom of Information Act). The basic issue here was not simply John Lennon. The basic issue here was that govt officials everywhere like secrecy. By keeping the public from learning what they have done, they hope to avoid criticism, hinder the opposition, and maintain power over CITIZENS and THEIR elected representatives. "Classified files" and "official secrets" lie at the heart of the modern govermental bureaucracy and permit the UNDEMOCRATIC use of power to go unrecognized and unchallenged by citizens.......Journalists, scholars, and activists have used the FOIA to scrutinize the operations of govt agencies and expose OFFICIAL MISCONDUCT and lying, INCLUDING the FBI's ILLEGAL efforts to HARASS, INTIMIDATE, DISRUPT and OTHERWISE INTERFERE with LAWFUL political actions."
The "principal" of the FOIA is the right one: democracy works best when the maximum amount of information is available to the public for review and debate. Geniune "national security" requires a vibrant democracy and a "WELL-INFORMED" citizenry, not a culture of secrecy.
So please pull your head out of the sand long enuf to at least look a an opposing viewpoint. Whether you choose to believe or accept it there are usually more than ONE side to every story(Dual Points of View) and who is to say they are not BOTH right in some ways. Society cannot change and does not change as long as its citizenry stand around with there hands over their ears and eyes unwilling to listen to ideas for positive change or if people believe it does not affect them so why should they care. For a people to be in power over their govt, people must be aware of what and why it's govt does what it does. Even if you think it does not affect you, I assure you letting the govt make its decisions FOR YOU, will at some point AFFECT YOU in one way or another. Maybe in the simple act of buying a house, which most of you could probably not care less about at this point in your life. But what if decisions the govt makes now make it harder for you to buy a house in 10 or 20 years. I think that affects you. So I really think you should all look at it as every decision the govt makes has the ability to affect you, even if not directly. Giving them the freedom to do as they feel may come back to haunt YOU in the future. As I finished my last big post with this comment, I feel it is very important to finish it with it again!quote:
I look forward to responsible comments on this subject.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/12/2002 : 04:48:45 AM
It depends who you ask.
teri
Did I mention that I finished a marathon? |
| FredDurst |
Posted - 01/08/2002 : 11:35:11 PM
Let me see if I have this straight. Marijuana is NOT legal?
FD "KING OF ALL I SURVEY" |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 01/06/2002 : 03:26:14 AM
Aww nuts, i wish i would have started reading this post earlier becasue it actually seems like an inteligent conversation.... i'll have to read all of it one day, soon i hope, and toss in my two cents... and you will get your pennies worth... but someone is making a penny. . . . . does penny look wierd to anyone esle... penny...damn english language.
Patriotism is a maggot in their heads. - Henry D. Thoreau |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/06/2002 : 03:12:44 AM
quote:
SAD SAD SAD!!!! COGS IN THE MACHINE!! Thank God I will be dead SOON!!
What the heck does that mean? Not a pleasant thing for your sister to read. ACK!
http://www.honolulumarathon.org (I ran under that sign!) |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 01/05/2002 : 3:46:38 PM
quote:
We need to learn about things like the holocaust because it reminds us of the atrocities that mankind is capable of.
Yeah but they don't need to teach it to us every year for eight years. I just get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again. It has gotten to the point where I'm almost completely desensitized to it, so I don't really care anymore.
quote:
pcbdmb, ever hear the expression "those who forget the past are condemned to repeated it"?
Trust me, I completely believe that statement. My freshman history teacher from high school said that if Hitler paid attention in his history class, then he wouldn't have marched on to Moscow in the worst Russian winter in half a century because that was what Napolean did. BTW, they both lost.
|
| Isaac |
Posted - 01/05/2002 : 10:22:54 AM
pcbdmb, ever hear the expression "those who forget the past are condemned to repeated it"? We need to learn about things like the holocaust because it reminds us of the atrocities that mankind is capable of. Granted maybe we should spread out and learn about some other types of historical tragedies but I beleive its very necessary to teach our kids about such things.
Dizan p. "well i'm assuming that i'd still have the frame of mind back then as i do presently," thats a falacy. You can't make that assumption, your present frame of mind has been sculpted by american culture, allowed to practice your own religeon and say whatever you want. You've been taught from birth that the holocaust was a horrible thing. If you'd been born in Nazi Germany your mind would've been poisoned into hating Jews from birth, and you would most likely kill to satisfy that hate.
"since a LOT of people did have the good sense to oppose the Nazis during their regime"
Yeah a lot of NOT Germans, and of the few Germans (Oscar Schindler) who had the balls to go against the Nazi's were all older and educated. Most of us are just young adults, extremely suceptible to brainwashing and conformity. I HIGHLY doubt any one of us would've had the freedom of thought to think against the rest of the Nazi's, and even if we did, it wasn't like you could just choose NOT to fight/kill Jews because you didn't beleive in it.
3----------------------->
Isaac |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/05/2002 : 07:01:54 AM
SAD SAD SAD!!!! COGS IN THE MACHINE!! Thank God I will be dead SOON!!
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| dan p. |
Posted - 01/05/2002 : 12:01:05 AM
well i'm assuming that i'd still have the frame of mind back then as i do presently, in which case i would not believe much of what the government said. but i hear how you can be sick of hearing about the holocaust. i'm sick of hearing out sept 11.
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 01/04/2002 : 6:29:13 PM
personally, I am sick and tired of hearing about the Holocaust. I mean, yeah it was a tragedy and six million were killed (but I've heard that the number is supposedly significantly less than that), but can't we move on from that? When I had to write my research paper last semester on Hitler's blunders that cost him the war, I stayed as far away from that topic as possible. I just feel that it has been beaten to death. And for all the Jewish people who always go back to the Holocaust, all I have to say is: were you even alive when it happened? They claim Anti-Semitism and all that which is bullshit (pardon my French).
Although my personal favorite is when ignorant people ask stupid questions. Like one time a friend of a friend, trying to sound intellegent, asked "Why didn't the Jews resist?" This question coming from the Diary of Anne Frank, which was their only information about the Holocaust. Well simply put, the Nazis tricked them into thinking they were going to some resort. I've watched that special on the History Channel like five times.
Anyway, some of this might sound a little harsh, but I just think that there are others things that occurred in this world beside the Holocaust. I probably don't like it because I was forced to read books on it and take tests on it through grammar and high school.
|
| tericee |
Posted - 01/04/2002 : 5:47:57 PM
quote:
but, i would NOT partake in the holocaust
I'm not saying I don't believe you, since a LOT of people did have the good sense to oppose the Nazis during their regime. (I love those specials they have on HBO about heroes.) I just wanted to ask if you have ever been to the Holocaust Memorial in Washington, DC. It takes you through a history of the whole thing, including the propaganda that the Nazis started with to "ease" the non-Jewish citizenry into apathy about the Jews.
In a depressing way, I could sort of see how so many people could be lured to the side of the Nazis without realizing what sort of evil they were supporting.
http://www.honolulumarathon.org (I ran under that sign!) |
| dan p. |
Posted - 01/04/2002 : 5:03:17 PM
touché, dude. i reckon you have a point. but, not having the time or funds to drive out to reservations and help them out, i can't. i'd write to a congressman, but i have no faith in them. the difference between the nazis and us beside 16 million deaths, is that germany was already a country when hitler came into power. this country is based on the stealing of the lands. this country wouldn't be here if that didn't happen. chances are if i existed when this took place, i might have been party to it. but, i would NOT partake in the holocaust. that i can garuntee you. however, i agree that we shouldn't hate germans for the holocaust. and i won't comment on the drug thing, because i don't know much about it and am not interested.
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| Isaac |
Posted - 01/04/2002 : 10:28:09 AM
*sigh* I dunno if I have the energy to keep argueing on this one hehe. I'll insert a few jabs though.
"the nazi's killed 6 million. we killed 20 million. there's no comparision to be made here."
Yes there is. You and Fluffy both missed my point I'm not comparing body counts I'm simply saying its silly and wrong to hate a people because of what their ancestors did.
There's another point to be made here, if any of you had happened to be born in those times you would've been out there shooting the natives with the rest of them, same if you were a German.
I guess what i'm trying to say is were all oppressed to various degrees. A lot of people get dealt much shittier hands in life then the native americans. I feel sorry for them all, just like you do. I just see us all as a bunch of fat wealthy assholes standing around going "yup what we did was wrong, yup damn us" when anyone of us could be donating money, or time to indian rights organizations or writing congressmen or even visiting reservervations and helping famalies, shit like that. We're only interested in talking about the problem though.
Okay as for the drug issue, first off if i got busted with pot 3 times I hope I'd be thinkng about quiting just because I'm an idiot and its costing me lots of money. Once you get busted you have to realize that your risking more everytime you smoke pot after that, and if you get busted twice your risking even MORE smoking up. Its meant to be a sobering slap in the face which the gov't hopes to scare you away from pot, and it DOES work sometimes i've seen 1st hand.
Okay here's my theory on why pot is illegal and booze isn't. Pot robs you of your ambition where alcohol does not. Thats why when booze was made illegal the outcry was so strong that gov't had no choice but to reverse it a few years later. If potheads were half that outspoken then pot would've been made legal long ago. The problem is the only people who have anything intellegent to say about pot's legalization are those rare individuals like fluffy who don't actually smoke it. And I don't see how you can blame the general public or the gov't for not taking the pot smokers seriously. Don't even get me started on the crazy shit i've though up stoned.
3----------------------->
Isaac |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/03/2002 : 4:17:49 PM
To the top, in honor of Isaac's return to the board. The prodigal son returns!!
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/01/2002 : 03:05:10 AM
Hey Dan, the point was made, but thanx for backing me up! Especially with so few words. I wish I could do that. I have a tendency to ramble on and on! Nice to hear it short and sweet! SAME POINT, FEWER WORDS, Same great sentiment. Guess you could call it DIET POST. The choice of the NEW GENERATION!!!
ps:Still waiting to hear back from Isaac on this one!
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/31/2001 : 6:37:58 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
while I'm not proud of what my ancestors did to the Indians, were surely not the worst offender when it comes to oppressing/destroying other races and as long as we learn from our bloody history then i don't see why we generations of sensativity later should be hated for it what our ignorant ancestors did. That'd be like hating all German's for what the Nazi's did.
the nazi's killed 6 million. we killed 20 million. there's no comparision to be made here.
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/31/2001 : 10:58:00 AM
indians can take advantage of whatever they want, as far as i'm concerned. remember, they were here first, then the white guys came and killed 20 million of them. then they herded the rest on to the worst land they could find. i'm glad indian cosinos are taking money away from the rest of us. and as for taxes, the US government is not their government. it was placed here without their concent. was this point alreay taken?
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| Evergreen |
Posted - 12/30/2001 : 03:45:54 AM
Fluffy, why arent more people with minds like yours running this country and I mean that in the most serious sense. It's my greatest hope that we give up the fossil fuel way of life and give all the great lands, air and water back to mother nature. I could go on for days about burning fossil fuels. I have long detailed theories on the beginning and continuation of the industrial age coinciding with the decline of human spirit and health. One example being the fact that cancer never existed before factories were built. Or SACRED places like the Adirondack Mountains in upstate New york, my birthplace and home for 27 years, would not be severely threatened to cease existence by acid rain and pollution from burning fossil fuels and the industrial belt in the Ohio River Valley(a lot of car factories too). The issues you raise about hemp products should be screamed from every roof top.
Sometimes it seems to huge and overtaken by power hungry idiots for any of it to change. The medical marajuana DC thing was a great example of that. The same kind of thing happened for years in the Adirondacks with the acid rain issues. The common folk who lived there(many indians) and appreciated it for its sacredness and beauty wanted something done about it. The politicians didn't want to say anything to the industries creating the pollution because of their money donations to the state. Gee I wonder where that money was going!! Eventually after 10 yrs the people won out and only 2 years ago did the Adirondack Park Association go after all of the factories and were able to at least begin the process of reducing their pollution gradient. Many of the thousands of lakes in the Adk's are already dead, but at least The Peoples voice did win out eventually. And the Park will be saved from total destruction of which did happen to the Black Forest in Germany from the same types of pollution. That's why I think people like Fluffy and forums such as this should continue to speak out about it. If enough people become educated to the benefits of alternatives to fossil fuels, the wisdom of Indian people, and the REAL definition of the drug war, maybe we really can change things.
I refuse to give up!!!!
Let the trees decide
EVERGREEN 143  |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 12/29/2001 : 12:37:52 AM
Whoah Fluffy! There's probably little competition for a lengthier post. A lot of great points though on all those issues and I'm with you on all of it. I can't even begin to say how ridiculous it is that marijuana is illegal. Even if not for recreational use, like you said there are just so many things you can do with it. For instance, the seeds have more protein than soy beans. That's pretty interesting and that alone would be a huge benefit. It would save taxpayers so much money if it was legal, and as you said would probably actually MAKE money from taxes (don't give me that crap about the gov't not being able to tax it because people will just grow their own plants because I think you'll agree that most people will not do that, and even if those who did grow wanted to sell it to those who didn't grow, they wouldn't be able to compete with the prices that commercially produced pot would carry). The most frustrating thing about the whole issue is ignorance. There are still people who think if you smoke some reefer then it'll make you kill someone. Ugh. Anyway, that was a great post Fluffy and I agree with all you said. I just tend to take special interest when there's marijuana involved 
Peace,
Patrick
http://members.tripod.com/one4tim/index.htm |
| BigJollyGiant |
Posted - 12/29/2001 : 12:13:08 AM
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| enthuTIMsiast |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 10:22:27 PM
so you think hemp is a good thing, right? [hehe]
-Jason-
I am a servant of the power behind the nothing. |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 9:47:12 PM
Hey Isaac:
quote:
if I got busted smoking pot, i'd get a healthy fine and sent on my merry way
The first time maybe but what about the 3rd time you get busted for smoking. You are not a drug dealer but your 3rd offense will get you drug dealer time. I am not saying to stop trying to stop drug dealers from peddling to children. We all know and want them off the streets but you my friend, how are you endangering children with your pot use? Is it right that you cannot smoke if you want to? That should be a right that is given to you by the constitution as a free man. Not taken away by the govt because they think it is dangerous and you can't handle it. Which is actually only the reason they give the public. Really it is economic. Ending the drug war and locking up less individual users takes money out of their pockets. Less money next year when govt starts shelling out the portions. You have heard of the budget. Well if you don't use the money they give you this year you don't get it next year and you certainly don't get more. Also there are big corporate interests at work here that don't want alternative energy sources being used because it will drive their prices down and create competition. Do you think they want to lose money. An organization called H.E.M.P.(Help End Marijuana Prohibition) offered a $100,000 challenge to the world to prove them wrong. Here it is: If all the fossil fuels and their derivatives, as well as trees for paper and construction were banned in order to save the planet, reverse the Greenhouse Effect and stop deforestation; THEN there is only one known annually renewable source that is capable of providing the overall majority of the world's paper and textiles, meet all of the worlds transportation, industrial, and home energy needs, while simultaneously reducing pollution, rebuilding the soil, and cleaning the atmosphere all at the same time....
And that substance is-the same one that did it all before-Cannabis Hemp...Marijuana! http://www.jackherer.com
Cannibas Hemp was legal tender(money) in most of the Americas from 1631-until the early 1800's. Why? To encourage American farmers to grow more.
You could pay your taxes with cannibas hemp throughout America for over 200 years!
You could be jailed in America for not growing cannabis during several periods of shortage, e.g.,in Virginia between 1763 and 1767.
Benjamin Franklin started one of Americas first paper mills with cannabis. This allowed America to have a free colonial press without having to beg or justify the need for paper and books from England.
There are cities all over the country named for the fact that they were HEMP producing areas. Like Hempstead, Long Island. Which I think is near Jon Soldo.
Hemp is overall, the strongest, most-durable, longest-lasting natural soft-fiber ont he planet. It's leaves and flower tops were-depending on the culture-the first second or third most important and most used medicines for 2/3 of worlds people for at least 3000 years, until the turn of the century. Hemp is, by far, Earth's premier, renewable natural resource. This is why HEMP is so very important.
Just so ya know, I don't even smoke pot. I am an advocate on a whole different level. I do believe people should have the right to smoke pot, unobstructed. I do believe that if you want to smoke a joint in your house(or wherever) that you should be able to, BUT if you go out drive a car and hurt innocent people while on it, THEN you should be punished. Again, I believe the only legitimate purpose of a govt is to protect you from me and me from you. You are so worried about he drug dealers well if you legalize it, you put them out of business. No more dealers on the street. When was the last time you saw some guy on the street trying to sell you some cigarettes. If it is legal, the govt can tax it(like cigarettes), putting more money into the economy which is already struggling to make ends meet and you take the dealers off the street because you take away their clients and market. Everyone who chooses to buy it, knows what they are getting, instead of buying it from some anonymous street drug dealer who could have done god knows what to it. blah blah blah on and on and on. I really feel like we should be having this conversation on the phone. It is so hard to type and keep the STREAM of thoughts in line this way. I hope I am making my point WELL and CLEAR. I don't feel like I am.
quote:
I'm not terribly well read up on the native american injustices (so correct me if i say anything horribly ignorant) but I beleive that they aren't forbidden to leave their reservations. So if they want a better standard of living maybe they need to leave their reservations and come live with the rest of us.
First, you need to remember that this country and YOUR way of life were not CHOSEN by these people. It was forced upon them by forcible removal from THEIR lands. If they want to return to THEIR way of living it requires all of you to pack your bags and hit the high road to wherever you all came from. They are not allowed to live THEIR way even on the reservations. They are still fighting over fishing rights and many other issues detriental to THEIR way of life. It is not that EZ. For alot of them "leaving the reservations and come live with the rest of us." is not an option, by their own choice. Say I came to your house took away everything that was yours and forced you to live in the backyard, and you looked into YOUR windows and saw the way I was living and said, "I don't like that way of life" so I am gonna stay here in my backyard where at least I can live free and not have to conform to their way of living since it does not appeal to me.
You were not given a fair choice, were you? Nope, you were told, live as we do or fuck you. That is no choice. Their lands, their language, their way of life, their religion(including prayers and rituals), their heritage, and their future were all changed. Not by their own doing but by the arrival of settlers who claimed this already lived in land. The govt would love it if the Indians would "leave their reservations and come live with the rest of us." That would end what the govt calls "The Indian Problem"(the govts words, not mine) Indians are a thorn in the side of the govt. A problem that WON'T go away. They sit there on capital wishing they had not given Indians so much freedom, way back when. To hard to control. Keep in mind Indians were not even considered citizens of the US until earlier in THIS century.
quote:
while I'm not proud of what my ancestors did to the Indians, were surely not the worst offender when it comes to oppressing/destroying other races and as long as we learn from our bloody history then i don't see why we generations of sensativity later should be hated for it what our ignorant ancestors did. That'd be like hating all German's for what the Nazi's did.
This by the way is no excuse. WORST offender, LEAST offender, who cares. It was done to the INDIANS. That is like saying " I feel bad for what we did to the Indians, but look at the Nazis, they were worse." That is a bullshit excuse. Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one. I am not looking for the govt to save the Indians. Only Indians can to that. They want to create their own life for themselves and the govt just won't let it happen. First they say one thing and when the Indians start to make a move they step right in front of them and say, "You can't do that in this country" Well on an Indian reservation they are supposed to be Sovereign nations. Not under the control of the USA on alot of levels, yet the govt keeps stepping in. I just want the govt to stop throwing up roadblocks to the Indians search for self-determination. Let them make the life they want for themselves. You want them to have a better life? Let them DO IT then. Why should they have to fall under the guidelines set by a govt that really does not control them or was forced upon them. They did not choose our system, it was forced upon them in THEIR country. Again I am starting to ramble and feel that my point could be better made over the phone. It is a much to widely encompassing topic to have to type it all. Sorry for the ramblings!
quote:
As for the casinos, I'm sure there are thousands of capitolizing native americans who took advantage of the tax breaks our gov't gives them and made millions upon millions with their casinos, and I doubt they're giving all their money back to fix up their reservations.
I know Moonhawk already pointed out the pertinent section in this story, but I would really suggest you go to the story and read the WHOLE thing. It is not that long. Isaac, my friend, I think you will be truly surprised by what you read. Here is the link again:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/15/tribal.casino.ap/index.html
The govt issue is far to big a topic to type all my objections here. I will answer one of Isaacs comments with a story that will hopefully convey my disillusionment with the govt and Isaacs belief that they are FOR THE PEOPLE and OF THE PEOPLE. Keep in mind that this is only ONE example and I really do believe that we have the best govt in the world, I think it just lost its way and needs some major attitude adjustment and really needs to exert less control in our personal lives. The govt has inserted itself into many areas of OUR personal lives that I believe they have no business in.
Here in DC they finally put the Medical Marijuana issue to a vote. They put it on the ballot, let THE PEOPLE vote on it. When the voting was over they refused to release the results. The govt was drug into court and forced to release the count. When they released the count, which was 69% in favor of Medical Marijuana, the govt also said "That regardless of the outcome, they would not support or endorse that bill to pass." Now what is that? The people have spoken, and they still think THEY know whats best. Well I feel they are supposed to represent us REGARDLESS of their personal opinions. We put them there to represent us, and when WE tell THEM what WE want, they treat us like children who don't know whats good for us. I think that is a load of crap, and really does not help me believe what Isaac believes about them representing us and us being able to make a change. They will have it the way THEY want it despite our letters, votes, etc. Of course I don't know all the answers but I am entitled to my opinion as are all of you. That is one of the great things about our country. I just want everyone to have all the facts or at least some facts they may not have had b4. I look forward to responsible comments on this subject.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Isaac |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 09:57:24 AM
Thats very cool, I stand corrected.
3----------------------->
Isaac |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/28/2001 : 01:46:30 AM
quote:
Fluffy thanks for the comment on my name ( it comes from the heart)
Hey Moonhawk, it gave me goosebumps reading that. Seriously.
Thanx for posting from that article, I was gonna do it, it seemed so appropriate in light of Isaacs comment. I had not gotten to it yet. Glad to see we are on the same page. More to come on this topic, I promise.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| MoonHawk |
Posted - 12/27/2001 : 7:20:09 PM
In response to Issac quote:I'm sure there are thousands of capitolizing native americans who took advantage of the tax breaks our gov't gives them and made millions upon millions with their casinos, and I doubt they're giving all their money back to fix up their reservations.
from the artical tericee linked us to (THANKS)
Then, eight years ago, the Tiguas opened Speaking Rock Casino, giving Hernandez's far-flung family reason to return. The casino offered some 850 jobs at about $18,000 a year -- $2,500 above El Paso's average. It generated enough revenue last year to disburse $15,000 to each of 1,200 members while supplying housing, health care and scholarships, and in the process, injecting millions into El Paso's struggling economy.
All the hope to Tiqua Indians!
My new song (All the hope) will be dedicated to thier fight.
Fluffy thanks for the comment on my name ( it comes from the heart)
Not to touch the earth |
| Isaac |
Posted - 12/27/2001 : 09:16:28 AM
"when you smoke the herb, you are supposed to become at least a little bit enlightened. You are smoking the burning bush my friend"
I dunno about your getting closer to god when you smoke, I usually just eat a lot and laugh at the stupid shit i say. I guess mabye if i habitually smoked I'd clog up enough brain cells to start beleiving the bullshit I sputter when i'm baked.
"GOD made the herbs, and Man made the booze."
Booze, or the act of distilling grains and berries is as natural as harvesting buds de-seeding and smoking them. Jesus turned water into wine for christ sake, he didn't turn hay into pot.
"Me and millions more kept smoking and dropping "
Acid is about the most synthetic drug imaginable, there's absolutly nothing that can be mistaken for natural in that.
"FACT: The CIA is the largest and most powerful drug and terror ring in the world. The war on drugs is a way to thin out their competition and get free money from the taxpayers to do it. You pay your taxes and support it? "
I'm not sure thats a fact cheif, sounds like an outlandish conspiracy theory to me.
"Anyway as you have admitted Isaac, you reek of forced fed opinions"
Your reek of crazy drug enduced opinions, get off your fucking high horse your, opinions are no more fact then mine. Quit trying to cover up the lack of fact in your argument by condeming me as a zombie.
Christ I don't even want to touch the rest of that drivel, even if you could convince enough ignorant fools to gather strength and bankrupt the gov't it'd just plunge the nation into chaos. You ideals are easy to back up because they involve you staring at "the machine" and telling everyone how awful it is and how we should destroy it, but you know you can't so you don't even try. You just keep up your normal lifestyle under the machine like the rest of us drones. God forbid actually DO something to fix up an over active but still functioning government, instead of sitting on your ass doing drugs and making crazy plans which you have no intentions of implementing.
3----------------------->
Isaac |
| tericee |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 7:39:47 PM
quote:
hey tericee, does your moving signature thing mean 1 love, one way? and if so, why?
Good guess, but not quite! My brother wanted to know the same thing. See my answer in the smiley thread.
http://www.timreynolds.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=790
(posted 12/26/2001, 3:44:22 PM)
teri :)
  |
| Micheal |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 3:12:14 PM
I love these topics! The truth is the truth, everthing else is bullshit. Isaac, when you smoke the herb, you are supposed to become at least a little bit enlightened. You are smoking the burning bush my friend. As far as the war on "drugs", GOD made the herbs, and Man made the booze. Who do you trust? I've known a few dealers in my day, many were musicians just like TIMMAY! Never have I seen or heard of anyone having to sell to "hundreds" of kids let alone selling to just one kid to make a living. FACT: The CIA is the largest and most powerful drug and terror ring in the world. The war on drugs is a way to thin out their competition and get free money from the taxpayers to do it. You pay your taxes and support it? Bah Humbug!
Anyway as you have admitted Isaac, you reek of forced fed opinions. You're just like the zombies in the Matrix. "Billions, oblivious". But don't worry, you are still young. Me and millions more kept smoking and dropping and evolving and have learned, without trying, to see, hear, and speak the truth for ourselves. CNN, parents, teachers, peers, message boards, TV comercials, football announcers etc.. constantly try to tell my conscience otherwise, just as Jesus was tempted 3 times by the anti-truth.
The planet is fucked because mainstream (corporate and dogmatic) people are fucked. Fixing the government is not realistic because it is a creation of fucked up people. We can only govern ourselves. ha! The founding fathers knew this when they invented the bill of rights. That government no long exhists, except of course in our force fed mind. Our only hope is another "american revolution".
We get pre-approved credit cards everyday in the mail. Sign up for as many as you can. On a premeditated day (like senior skip day) millions of drop-outs (read freedom/earth/truth lovers) attack the "machine" with our wallets. Quit your job to cut off the government of some tax dollars, then go shopping. Max out every credit card, drain savings accounts, and "cash out" the equity in your house with home equity loans. Purchase things like non-perishable food, gardening tools, seeds, high quality camping gear, construction supplies, solar equipment and anything else that we need. With enough people and credit line, we can only hope to create a crippling and un-surmountable dept to the machine by legally defalting on our "bills" (yeh, the checks in the mail, ha). Afterall, money is the fuel of the machine. I'm not talking about starting another comune that exhists within the machine. This re-evolution will only work *if* enough people (100 monkeys) do it. They won't hunt us down unless they are getting paid. We will have the safety in numbers thing. "They got the guns but we got the number.. gonna win yeh were taking over..COME ON!".. the american poet Jim Morrison.
I doubt that my mother and those that share her bullshit reality will play along, but her lifestyle and beliefs and those of the machine that she supports threaten my future and the future of things stuggeling to live on our planet. Chaos of this sort looks cold, and risky on paper. But is it any worse than the chaos and injustice that we see and perpetuate everyday anyway, by driving to "jobs we hate", watching broadcast TV, eating fast food, drinking booze (the blue pill) wearing NIKE shit etc....We, the slaves, are keeping their bullshit world afloat. That can change if we change.
We are in debt to the planet, to nature. It created us! We belong to it, it does not belong to us.
Thanks for your time and thanks for you being you Isaac. PEACE micheal |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 10:28:50 AM
hey tericee, does your moving signature thing mean 1 love, one way? and if so, why?
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| Isaac |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 09:28:38 AM
Hey, sorry it took me so long to reply but I haven't been swept up in a wave of last minute chirstmas shopping and family visitings.
Okay for the drug war, if I got busted smoking pot, i'd get a healthy fine and sent on my merry way. I try to be careful, I know when I smoke pot that i'm taking that risk and i'm okay with that. Our system has the potential to be extremly harsh on the end drug user, but even for harder drugs so long as the person shows a genuine desire to get help with their addictions they can usually get off without extended jail time.
The people who are in jail for longer then the rapists are usually people who get caught with tons of drugs and get labled with an intent to sell. Now i understand needing to be harder on these people, they're a lot like child molesters actually. Instead of receiving sexual gratification for molesting a few kids, they make a cash proffit off of getting hundreds of kids addicted to their drugs, I really don't see how anyone can consider that a victimless crime.
I agree that forcing someone to share your beleifs is bullshit. I do often wrestle with the fact that the bible says that to be a good christian I should go try to spread the word. I'm not comfortable trying to inform my friends about christianity, I feel my relationship with god is a very personal one and I don't really feel the need to go to church or convert friends in order to maintain it. The problem there is that I don't know if god's cool with that or if i'm just basing my religeous beleifs off of whats convenient for me.
Anyway religeon is definatly a double edged sword, a lot of people use it properly for guidance or to give them comfort in our chaotic society, but at the same time its also weilded by many fools and unfortunatly those fools have a nack for convincing everyone else to join their evil causes. I guess its kind of like handguns, it all depends on whose fireing/practicing it.
I'm not terribly well read up on the native american injustices (so correct me if i say anything horribly ignorant) but I beleive that they aren't forbidden to leave their reservations. So if they want a better standard of living maybe they need to leave their reservations and come live with the rest of us. I understand that a lot of them want to stay with their traditional way of living, and if so then isnt' the idea to live off the land? I don't see why they'd want the gov't to be helping them. As for the casinos, I'm sure there are thousands of capitolizing native americans who took advantage of the tax breaks our gov't gives them and made millions upon millions with their casinos, and I doubt they're giving all their money back to fix up their reservations.
As for the gov't as a whole, sure I think I could take the helm as president and put all the shit strait. All of us probably think similarly, we've all got our own opinions on how the gov't could be done better, but we all feel like there's nothing we can do so we just bitch about it. The thing is, we all have lots of power over our gov't, on one level we could all be writing letters to our congressmen or going around printing up pamphlets and making others aware of things that are wrong in the world, or on another level we could all be grass roots campaigning and running for city offices and chaning the way our local communities are for starters.
Most of you will just blow that off saying "I don't have enough money to campaing for shit" but it is possible for people with good ideas to get noticed and work their way up in the political world, to sit back and say I don't have enough money or its to corrupt is a fucking cop out preventing any of us from trying. Our whole country is based on small bands of people with similar beleifs rising up and fighting for what they beleived in and most of the time it was against things scarier then "wealthy corrupt politicians".
3----------------------->
Isaac |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 03:21:33 AM
Moonhawk wrote:
quote:
Some deep stuff going on in this forum.
Yes there is, but there is also alot of mindless drivel and that stuff is alot of fun too. Glad you joined us. Look forward to hearing more from you in the future. Welcome aBOARD Moonhawk!
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 02:38:18 AM
Thanx Teri, you sure are a whiz at finding stuff on the internet, that was like in less than 5 mins from when i posted my message. I guess we see who got the brains in the family. HEHE
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| tericee |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 02:26:19 AM
Here's something from CNN.com/AP on two tribal casinos in Texas. It sounds like they got a reprieve until January. I vote in that state, so if I get a chance, I'll support the tribe.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/15/tribal.casino.ap/index.html
 |
| tericee |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 02:15:32 AM
Nice to see a lot of intellectual discussion going on here. I'm not sure where I stand on this stuff though. As a Christian & libertarian-leaning republican, I'm where Isaac is on some issues. But as a person of American Indian heritage, I can understand where Fluffy's coming from too. I'll just sit on my fence a while longer while I read my new book about the Navajo Codetalkers.
teri :)
p.s. You guys really should try to improve your spelling... There's nothing like trying to appreciate a person's point and then get sidetracked by grammar and spelling errors.
|
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/26/2001 : 01:56:10 AM
I had seen a small blurb in the paper but have not been able to find out anymore. If you have anymore details, I would love to know about it. Maybe a link to a paper or story about it. Thanx Moonhawk! and welcome aBOARD! Love the screenname. RU in TX?
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| MoonHawk |
Posted - 12/25/2001 : 9:39:35 PM
Fluffy did you know a cosino on indian land was just shut down because it falls under texas law? They spent alot of money to make it nice and only after it was complete did texas officals say it could not operate.
Some deep stuff going on in this forum. |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/25/2001 : 9:13:40 PM
Hey Isaac, haven't seen you post since I posted this. Just hope you are busy for the holidays. Still wondering what you thought of it. Hope I have not scared you away. I am not at all angry, just hoping we can have a FRIENDLY conversation on the topic. You have struck a topic that is near and dear to my heart. Anxiously awaiting your response.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/22/2001 : 04:24:00 AM
Isaac my friend, INDIAN opression still goes on today. Just visit a reservation. Lowest income per capita, very little good plumbing and electricity. They are 3rd world sovereignties right within our own boundries. Not to mention INDIANS are still fighting for land rights, fishing rights(that were promised to them in every broken treaty of the past). Then when the INDIANS exert some self-determination in the form of INDIAN casinos the govt freaks because suddenly they will be a financial force to be rekoned with. In this great country of ours, MONEY is power. The govt does not want to see INDIANS with power. To hard to control, they will actually have to listen to them and they really DON'T want to do that. If the Indians have power they could change things but the govt does not want to see that happen. Indians were not even considered citizens of this country until this century. As far as Christians go. I consider myself CHRISTIAN(or at least hold some christian beliefs), but the point they were making is the things done in the name of Christianity or any religion for that matter. What they are saying is more people need to stop spouting Christianity and start showing it. Any killing or genocide in the name of religion is just fucking ludicris. Forcing people to share your beliefs, even you, I hope, would agree that that is wrong. Coersion in the name of God, Allah, Jaweh, etc is bullshit. As far as taxes go, I would not have a problem with taxes if it was a more balanced system. The tax system in this country sucks. The "poor" pay way to much, while big business and the millionaires get all the breaks. Those who are least able to pay are forced to pay a larger percentage of their income taking food out of their families mouths and in some cases roofs from over their heads. Sending them into the welfare system(which I don't even want to get into). Plus the taxes are then used how they see fit with no concern or imput from the people who are paying the taxes. If I could tell them where to spend my taxes I would be more than happy to pay my share. Instead they TAKE my taxes and wage war in foreign countries, give it strait out to OTHER countries while we have people starving and living on the streets right here at home. There has to be a better, fairer system. Our govt spends far too much money on things I don't think they should be spending it on. The drug war for instance. By your own admission you "do do drugs from time to time", so let me ask you, Do you think it is fair that if you are caught doing drugs you should be locked up in prison for longer than a murderer or child molester or rapist? That is what our legal system does on a daily basis. It takes "NON VIOLENT OFFENDERS"(I am not talking about the drug dealers and there murderous lackies but drug users) and locks them away for ridiculous sentences and that is what they call success in the WAR ON DRUGS. While the govt funnels your tax dollars to countries active in the drug trade where in alot of instances the govts of those countries are either turning a blind eye or actively participating in the drug trade. This in turn puts undo financial obligations on the tax paying public to take care of these NON VIOLENT OFFENDERS while they are in prison. Filling up an already overcrowded prison system with NON VIOLENT OFFENDERS with ridiculously long sentences when compared to the sentences handed down for violent crime. So lets say you get busted for doing your drug of choice and you go into prison and because of MANDATORY MINIMUMS you have no chance of parole and you watch violent offenders getting out quicker than you. First off I don't even believe you should be in there in the first place but I would much rather see you get our sooner and leave the child molester in there to rot. I would much rather see him off the street than you who was caught with the drug of your choice. It is just a ridiculous system and it has proved time and time again that this war on drugs does nothing to stop the problem. It only creates more criminals for an already overburdened judicial and penal systems. It is time to re-examine the situation and come up with a better policy than locking up otherwise harmless individuals for doing what is there GOD given right. I thought we were supposed to live in a FREE society. To quote Thomas Jefferson(another so called patriot with a list of his own problems I will not go into here) "The only LEGITAMATE purpose of a government is to protect you from me". The govts job is NOT to protect me from me. In a free society I should be FREE to do whatever I want as long as it does not hurt anyone else. I welcome you comments and hope that we can continue this discussion. LMK what you think.
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| Isaac |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 10:17:07 AM
Okay you don't really think I'd write a paragraph in the LOTR thread bitching about peoples attention span and then complain to Fluffy for making too long a post did ya?!
I suppose I might as well get this out in the open. I may technically be a kid, but somehow I didn't get the political opinions of a kid. I was brainwashed at an early age by staunch republican parents, and it resulted in me being one big hairy asshole conservitave myself.
So I'm all super cool with Taxes, I do do drugs from time to time, but I understand and concur with the Gov't desicion to go to "war" against them, if nothing else then as a means to keep drug use from getting toooo out of hand. I'm a christian and while I'm not proud of what my ancestors did to the Indians, were surely not the worst offender when it comes to oppressing/destroying other races and as long as we learn from our bloody history then i don't see why we generations of sensativity later should be hated for it what our ignorant ancestors did. That'd be like hating all German's for what the Nazi's did.
Reguardless though i'm all about people expressing their opinions, I give the Corporate Avengers credit for being so forthwright with their opinions, so long as they're not just being opinionated to sell records.
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Isaac |
| Isaac |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 09:57:54 AM
Man I really want to read all of that but I go crosseyed after the first paragraph hehe
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Isaac |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 12/21/2001 : 01:57:35 AM
I have been waiting for the right time to spring this on you. Here it is:
Even in the initial stages of contact between European Christians and Native Indian people the stage was set for ethnocentrism, and the attitude towards the Indians was that of Christian superiority. The Indians were read a proclamation IN SPANISH which they had no hope of understanding, they had no hope of understanding the death sentence they were being read, and it went something like this:
"We ask and require you to acknowledge the church as the ruler and superior of the whole world and the high priest called pope and in his name the king of Spain as lords of this land. If you submit we shall recieve you in all love and charity and shall leave you, your wives and children and your lands free without servitude, but if you do not submit we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against you, we shall take you and your wives and your children and shall make slaves of them and we shall take away your goods and shall do you all the harm and damage we can!"
2000 years ago we were all tribal
Then came the missionaries with their fucking bible
1492 began the termination, the holocoust of our Indian Nations
Yeah, with Christian love and a moral authority
They killed our medicine men and stole our country.
I never claimed this shit was poetry
It's just the fucking lies of Christianity
You will pray to the lord and get down on your knees
Here's a cross for your back and the coughing disease
Though you helped us survive we will laugh while you bleed
Then deny what we did, write our own history
We will kidnap your children and cut off their hair
Silence their language and outlaw their prayers
Beat them blind until they believe
In the blood of Jesus Christ our KING
Christians Murdered Indians
Columbus murdered children and now we have a holiday
Still you want to deny your history
Look to the sky for your God to justify
As you commit cultural genocide
Christians came and the natives they did hang
13 at a time for Jesus and his gang
We are the ones you had to dehumanize
So your murder and greed could be justified
Christians Murdered Indians
We believe in the earth, the sky and dreams
The universe and the creator who gave us these
The sacred gift of life and human beings
That makes you perpetrate the hate to annihilate
So here I am the savage civilized
Voice of the dead, and my ancestors cries
And like the ghosts of this land you can't erase
I see blood on the hands of the master race
500 years of manifest destiny
500 years of resistance to the enemy
You have faith in the rivers the mountains the trees
We've a murdering God to replace all of these
With the blood of forgiveness you too can be free
Or the wrath of Jehovah you're sure to recieve
We will baptize you with the blood of the lamb
With the sword and the gospel we will conquer your land
You will join our church and be glad to be saved
Or we will slaughter your children and your women we'll rape
Christians Murdered Indians
In the history of the human race
Of all the inspirations for the separation of man from his true tribal culture
of all the inspirations for acts of violence from one man onto another
From one nation onto another, from one oppressor onto the oppressed.
There is no more guilty party and inspiration than those books known
as the holy bible, the Koran, and bagavad gita to spread separation of mankind.
The Bible is Bullshit
the Koran is a Lie
the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
There are the books that were written by men
They've caused wars, now follow if you can
They took away our love and gave us fear
Tried to make us hate THE ONE who put us here
Then they took our sacred songs and made them wrong
Then took away our prayers and gave us theirs
The Bible is Bullshit
the Koran is a Lie
the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
There are the books that were written by men
They've caused wars, now follow if you can
First they created Sin so they could win
Then they built the cages they could put us in
Then they took away our tribes and gave us jail
They they took away the earth and gave us hell
The Bible is Bullshit
the Koran is a Lie
the bagavad gita did not fall from the sky
There are the books that were written by men
They've caused wars, now follow if you can
Its TIMe for you to love one another
Its TIMe for you to recognize your brother
Its TIMe for us to stop killing our MOTHER
Its TIMe for us to take care of each other
Seemed very appropriate given the discussion. These are lyrics by a band called Corporate Avenger. I highly recommend everyone run out and get this album(or ask for it for Xmas) These guys are Rage against the Machine with Bigger Balls. Every lyric on this record is amazing. They are apparently and offshoot of the Kottonmouth Kings with the addition of a native american singer and many worthwhile topics for discussion. I think they have raised the bar for socio-political rock. The album is called Freedom is a State of Mind.
Taxes are strong armed robbery, the collectors of taxes funnel the majority of funds to policies and institutions counter productive to spiritual advancement
Well Taxes are stealing and I get the feeling
That we're getting fucked in the ass!
They take what they want to, whenever they want to
and our needs they always come last
They Lie They Cheat They Steal From you and me
Their hands are in our pockets, they're bleeding us to death
They fucking keep on taking till theres nothing fucking left
Its a federal invention, they set the goddamned rate.
Its a little paper portrait with a legacy of hate.
They're numbing all our senses with their bullshit and their lies
It's no goddamned secret its done right before our eyes
And if you don't cooperate they'll lock your ass away
With the very fucking money that they fucking took away
Well Taxes are stealing and I get the feeling
That we're getting fucked in the ass!
They take what they want to, whenever they want to
and our needs they always come last
They Lie They Cheat They Steal From you and me
The IRS was not there the other day when I was unloading truck after truck into that hot fucking warehouse. The IRS was not here the other day when I was pulling weeds in the fucking hot sun. The IRS was not there when I needed money to pay my bills, but they sure as fuck were there on Friday to take almost half my pay again and again and again and again
Your constitution, the laws that they've made say that they can tax your income so they do it everyday.
The IRS policeman they take and take and take
We've got free Masonic symbols in a free Masonic state
Lest you forget about your cozy little home, that very place you live in but you never fucking own
Its the craft of their creator, we act our their design.
A society of secrets with a television mind.
and another:
The war on drugs is a war on people
and peoples rights are being violated and your incarcerating
and caging human beings often times who are simply victims
of the sickness of addiction, who have become sucked up in this
giant war on drugs, which in fact is a crime against humanity
The war on drugs is a war on people!
FBI got a file on me
To many cages in the land of the free
Join us now as we make our plea
Set all drug offenders free
FBI got a file on you
think they don't but they goddamn do
All seeing eye is watching you
Everything you say and everything you do
FBI got a file on me
Another red man in a stolen country
And I don't give a fuck about the USA
just give me back my tribal ways
FBI got a file on you
I don't think how they taught me to
They rule by fear, but I am not afraid
Just give me back my tribal ways
FBI got a file on me
FBI got a file on me
Cuz I speak of what I see
Crimes against humanity
The drug war fought upon the free
FBI got a file on you
Had one on John Lennon too
and don't forget PELTIER
Why is he not free today?
FBI got a file on me
too many cages in the land of the free
join us now as we make our plea
set all drug offenders free
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 6:11:09 PM
Oh yeah, the Onion kicks ass!
Peace,
Patrick
http://members.tripod.com/one4tim/index.htm |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 6:10:40 PM
Though I don't believe in God, I really think there's a lot to be said about this article. This is more than just a joke, but really a look into how twisted religion has become. Whether there's any truth in it or not, people have definitely distorted whatever "the message" is quite a bit. Very well written.
Peace,
Patrick
http://members.tripod.com/one4tim/index.htm |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 3:12:46 PM
seems to me god would have done this after the nazi's, where, you know, 6 million people died, as opposed to our 4,000. that was very funny, none the less. i enjoyed it.
when you think about it, mud is just wet dirt. |
| Black Lotus |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 2:55:37 PM
quote:
nice sig lotus.
that artical actually came out like a week after the towers fell.
but it is still funny.
Patriotism is a maggot in their heads. - Henry D. Thoreau
Hey, I never said I was up on current events ... Speaking of which, the towers fell?
Sorry, bad joke.
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Look ma, new signature!
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| Saint Jude |
Posted - 12/19/2001 : 1:48:29 PM
nice sig lotus.
that artical actually came out like a week after the towers fell.
but it is still funny.
Patriotism is a maggot in their heads. - Henry D. Thoreau |
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