| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| PJK |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 4:26:48 PM
Yesterday the Senate passed a bill attacking the organization of Moveon.org, an organization that I am proud to be a member of. Not only do I support this organization, but I put my money (and I don't have a lot of that) where my mouth is and make donations.
What happened yesterday is another step closer to loosing our rights of Freedom of Speech. YOU AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO CRITICIZE THE MILITARY, A MILITARY GENERAL, SOLDIER,THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES! ONE WHO DOES THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY UNPATRIOTIC! Uniforms and service do not make them right! I can point out countless men who have wore the "uniform" and did evil things. This is not to say that General Patraeus is evil, I don't believe he is, but I do believe he is a puppet for Bush and is saying just what is expected of him.
Funny how Bush and his cronies are in such an uproar over moveon.org's add, yet daily we are being bombarded with propaganda in the form of TV commercials promoting the war and stating that we MUST STAY THE COURSE! Bullshit, pure bullshit! I am sure you have seen these ads, they have either a pathetic mother of a slain serviceman or an amputee veteran who pleads us to stay the course. The serviceman goes even further to state the biggest lie yet, he says"we must win this war because they started it!" You and I know "they", the Iraqi people and leadership DID NOT start this. There is NO connection between 9-11 and the war in Iraq. Notice how Bush isn't talking about weapons of mass destruction any more! hummm????
This bill that was passed is errily similar to what happened in the two Red Scares in American history. People were thrown into jail simply because they were seen as being "unpatriotic."
It is important to remember that taking away the right to free speech breeds violence. If one has no right to speak, one will act!
I am not trying to tell you what to believe. I am not asking you to support moveon.org. What I am telling you is to be aware, BE VERY AWARE, of how our country is moving ever closer to a police state. Little by little our rights are being taken away. If you don't understand this, I would have to believe you are living in fantasy land.
In the words of John Lennon, "give peace a chance!"
Here is an article about this topic for anyone who is interested.
MoveOn Ad Sparks Anger, Senate Vote
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN,The New York Times
Posted: 2007-09-21 13:39:20
Filed Under: Iraq News, Politics News
WASHINGTON (Sept. 20) - The Senate approved a resolution on Thursday denouncing the liberal antiwar group MoveOn.org over an advertisement that questioned the credibility of Gen. David H. Petraeus , the American commander in Iraq .
MoveOn.org, with 3.2 million members, has become a powerful force in Democratic politics and the advertisement it paid for, which appeared in The New York Times, has come under sharp attack from Congressional Republicans and others as unpatriotic and impugning the integrity of General Petraeus. The ad taunted Petraeus as "General Betray Us."
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Senator Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut, both Democratic candidates for president, voted against the resolution, which passed 72 to 25.
But curiously absent from the vote was Senator Barack Obama of Illinois, also a Democratic candidate for president, who had canceled a campaign appearance in South Carolina so he could be in Washington for votes.
Mr. Obama issued a statement calling the resolution, put forward by Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, “a stunt.” Mr. Obama said, “By not casting a vote, I registered my protest against these empty politics.”
Mr. Obama had voted minutes earlier in favor of an extremely similar resolution proposed by Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California.
Ms. Boxer’s proposal, which failed, called for the Senate to “strongly condemn all attacks on the honor, integrity and patriotism” of anyone in the United States armed forces. It did not mention the MoveOn.org ad. Mr. Dodd and Mrs. Clinton also voted in favor of Ms. Boxer’s proposal.
Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, who is also seeking the Democratic nomination, was in Iowa and did not vote.
At a White House news conference, President Bush called the advertisement disgusting and said it was an attack not only on General Petraeus but also on the entire American military.
“And I was disappointed that not more leaders in the Democrat Party spoke out strongly against that kind of ad,” Mr. Bush said. “And that leads me to come to this conclusion: that most Democrats are afraid of irritating a left-wing group like MoveOn.org — or more afraid of irritating them than they are of irritating the United States military.”
Representative Thomas M. Davis III, Republican of Virginia, has urged the House to hold hearings on the MoveOn.org ad and to investigate whether The Times gave the group an improper discount. A New York Times Company spokeswoman has said that the group paid a standard “standby” rate.
MoveOn.org lashed out at Mr. Bush’s comments and pledged to double its spending on ads criticizing Republican lawmakers for blocking efforts by Democrats to change the war strategy. Eli Pariser, executive director of MoveOn.org Political Action, said, “What’s disgusting is that the president has more interest in political attacks than developing an exit strategy to get our troops out of Iraq and end this awful war.”
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| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PJK |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 10:43:45 PM
dan, I just got home from class, the one on Terrorism and Political Violence and I asked my professor his opinion of the whole Columbia U./Ahmadinejad event during our break. My professor was in the IDF for something like 7 years and held quite an important position. Being Jewish he of course took great offense at the fact that Columbia invited Ahmadinejad to speak. I was intrigued by some of his reasons, one of which was that the fact that he was asked to speak at such an esteem institution gave him validity, which he didn't deserve.
One of my professor's comments about the actual speech or "debate" was that he was disturbed by the applause after one of Ahmadinejad's comments, applause which was in agreement with one of his statements.
I didn't get to hear or see the debate or clips of it on the news because I have been swamped with work this week, I only read about it so I am not sure exactly what applause he was speaking of or the exact comment that elicited that response.
It was just very interesting to me to get my professor's views on it. I can't go into everything he said because it's late, I'm tired and I have a splitting headache, but I found his opinions interesting. I didn't agree with all his views, but he raised some points I hadn't thought of and we had an interesting exchange of ideas.
I was impressed with the way the President of the University told him he was either an idiot or uneducated if he believed that the most documented event in history is a myth. I don't really care if Ahmadinejad took offense to that or not, nor do I care if he cares what we think of him, I was just happy someone had the balls to say it to his face.
I realize I didn't really answer your question well and that what I just posted lacks detail, for that I apologize. After 3+ hours of very in depth lecture/discussion on Hitler and fascism my brain is fried.
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| Arthen |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 10:40:52 PM
I liked his answers. Bullshit almost all of them. "I never said the holocaust never happened, yadda yadda yadda." Uh...yeah. You have. "We don't have that problem (gays)". Huh? Cause you execute them all. It was pretty pathetic in general. I doubt he'll do another anytime soon. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 9:03:46 PM
so. he spoke. thoughts? younglings? anyone? |
| Hopeful Rolling Waves |
Posted - 09/24/2007 : 8:01:32 PM
Can we stay on topic here, please.  |
| Ranting Thespian |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 11:58:32 PM
This song is purely about Bush and his "advisers"
Mutiny's In the Air
When you took control
You said you'd join
The left and the right
The day and the night
But you left us here
In hurt and despair
You lied to us
Without a care
You flew us in
After the attack that day
You made a detour
It was the wrong way
I say we raid the cabin
Take him from his chair
Toss him out, without a care
Can you smell it my friends
Mutiny's in the air
You say you have privilege
To search and destroy
Anyone you want
It's all a decoy
That the captain can have
Whatever he wants
If he himself thinks it's right
And we are wrong
You flew us in
After the attack that day
You made a detour
It was the wrong way
I say we raid the cabin
Take him from his chair
Toss him out, without a care
Can you smell it my friends
Mutiny's in the air |
| Ranting Thespian |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 11:54:47 PM
I would like to post the lyrics to 2 of my latest tunes. This one is how I feel about politics in general here:
What Is History?
Conspiracies
Truths or mysteries
I contemplate
What's up to date
Who can I trust
In the times we live
Should I say "fuck them all"
Or learn to forgive
Oh give me a sign
Without weapons or terrorist strikes
Oh give me a line
For me to mock and deny
Or give me some truth
For me to believe
What is real
What is history
Our leaders today
Are all walk, no talk
There's no substance
Nothing but sugar and salt
Where's the land of the free
The ones dead were brave
The cowards stand above
And put the pons in play
Oh give me a sign
Without weapons or terrorist strikes
Oh give me a line
For me to mock and deny
Or give me some truth
For me to believe
What is real
What is history
Get up, get up now
Stand up, stand up now
Fight, fight now
Take it back, take it back now
Oh give me a sign
Without weapons or terrorist strikes
Oh give me a line
For me to mock and deny
Or give me some truth
For me to believe
What is real
What is history
. . . and yes, the first two lines came from many of Ruby's posts. |
| Hopeful Rolling Waves |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 3:52:36 PM
Ahmadinejad should be campaigning in the U.S. more so than the lame-ass '08 candidates (save Kucinich, Gravel, and Paul..who are AWESOME!) in order to lay rest the idea that Iran is looking to start trouble. He should concentrate on the U.S.'s shady dealings with the nation during its formative stages, and point to the horrible distribution of wealth in his region and ours. He could be a real positive influence if he wanted to be, Iran is on the up and up, hopefully megalomania doesn't set it...he is a bit nutty. |
| gnome44 |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 2:45:30 PM
Three reasons not to see him:
1.) He is short.
2.) He has a beard.
3.) He doesn't dress very nicely.
Anyone that resembles ME so closely obviously cannot be trusted and should not be tolerated.
 |
| dan p. |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 2:37:54 PM
i would enjoy hearing him speak and answer questions. i guess i never understood why people would not want to a) let him speak to a group full of grown ups and b) hear what he says.
like it or not, the guy is a leader of a nation that is, for a number of reasons, important right now. you can't simply say "omg he's evil let's pretend he doesn't exist except for bombs!!!!111one" the appropriate question isn't "why should we go hear him?" it's "why shouldn't we go hear him?" i defy anyone to give 3 good reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to talk and get asked questions. hint: "he's the enemy" and "he denies the holocaust" are shitty answers.
also, come on. you get to ask him questions. he denied the holocaust. frankly, i'd like to know just how he explains that. think of all the things you'd like answered from him. even if you hate him or whatever. there has to be something you'd like him to answer. you'd be hearing it directly from him, too. no filtered through anyone else.
there's a lot of talk about him "spewing his hate" or whatever. yeah? he spews his hate, then you make him justify it. besides, it isn't a room full of impressionable children. no one is going to start hating jews because this guy said some stuff. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 1:47:00 PM
I wouldn't be interested in hearing him speak, as much as I would hearing him answer questions, which is how the Columbia Forum is based. The president of Columbia, from what I read, will start the session by asking him about his denials of the holocaust. Interesting stuff. |
| PJK |
Posted - 09/23/2007 : 09:32:43 AM
Thanks Zack! VERY interesting. You know my man Obama didn't do well in his answering of the question by Bill, I was shocked at how many "ums" he used while speaking. Made it hard to follow what he was saying, IMO.
On another note: KUDO's for Columbia University for having Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speak tomorrow at the University! I loved the University Presidents response when reporters asked why in the world he would invite such a person. He told it like it is, you may not like him, but he is part of the global community, and this gives the students an opportunity to not only hear what he has to say, but also to ask tough questions. Remember, that evading tough questions can send deeper meanings than if answered with words, so however the response, there WILL be a message.
I for one wish I could be there for that and I have a hunch that I am not the only one. Ben, Zach, Nick, Jared, Dave, danP, I have a feeling any or all of you would be equally interested in hearing Ahmadinejad speak. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 9:43:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PJK
No I didn't get to see that, but wish I had. BTW, what was the question?
http://debates.news.yahoo.com/
Check it out. Bill Maher's questions are great. |
| PJK |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 1:51:33 PM
No I didn't get to see that, but wish I had. BTW, what was the question? |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 12:45:56 PM
I don't know if you saw the Yahoo debate (that wasn't really a debate). They had Bill Maher ask all the candidates one question. He had the best questions I've heard asked to the candidates so far. Edwards, Hillary, and Obama all tried to laugh him off though like he was joking. |
| PJK |
Posted - 09/22/2007 : 09:08:52 AM
quote:
arthen wins this thread.
Nah.....Zach, Jared, Ben and I all won since we were exchanging our thoughts and bouncing our ideas around. I can't tell you guys how much I wish we could all just sit around a room and talk about some of these things when stupidity hits the news. At least with the internet we can have this dialog.
Salman Rushdie said last night on Bill Maher's show that the attack on Moveon.org was because this administration wants to "talk about talking about the war instead of just TALKING about the war." He said its just a smoke screen because they don't want to talk directly about what is going on. Oh, and they also said there are more "contractors" in Iraq than service men/women. I knew there were a lot, just didn't know there were that many.
It was a fun show to watch and Bill's dialog about the moveon.org incident in the opening segment was priceless! He also showed the ad that got the Republicans so mad and followed it with several of his own which were hilarious!
I do agree that it was a huge waste of time to go after moveon.org and I see the Democrats are not fit to run this country either, so I guess we are pretty much fucked. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 10:44:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
The idea that moveon.org "earned" condemnation from the Senate, just shows how stupid and useless people in government are, wasting time with such an idiotic endeavor. However I don't find it an attack on the first ammendment. They simply condemned the group for saying what they did. That's stupid, but allowed. They have not arrested anyone related to Moveon.org or attempt to stop them from speaking again. In fact, such a reaction from the republicans, and every democrat that went along with their tail between their legs, would only encourage me to keep making such statements.
A note for moveon.org though, I don't think such advertisements are going to do much, and I've always felt so. They, like a lot of other groups, are just preaching to the choir. And while I may or may not agree with their messages, they aren't going to get much in the way of new recruits in that way. Especially using a message like that against someone who has a higher credibility than Pres. Bush on the war, at least in a poll I saw.
As for Petraeus, who has a badass name for a general he sounds like a Gladiator, I caught a really interesting interview with Gen. Wesley Clark on the Daily Show who knew and talked about Petraeus. Clark said something along the lines of Petraeus is a third string quarterback thrown into a football game in the fourth quarter where he's team is already down 20points and he's told to win the game. I think that's a pretty fair statement of the guy and at times I feel kind of bad for him, along with any other military member involved in Iraq bullshit.
arthen wins this thread. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 10:16:51 PM
The falling to chaos argument sounds just like Vietnam. The military in fact is the cause of much of the "insurgency". With the new oil law which is basically dividing the country up into warring factions which will individually profit from co-operating with different oil companies the country is being set up for ongoing civil war. Because of that the US makes a strong enough case to keep troops there back here. The majority of Iraqi people want them to leave and have for two years at least. The US however is building and maintaining forward operating bases in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Either the people in charge of the war are completely inept and stupid or this is planned. It calls into question the geo-political plans for the area in the next fifteen years. It's obvious they want multi theater wars that are perpetual. They also want to invade Iran based on the continued planning for it with Israel's cooperation. One of the main ideas in invading Iraq was being able to shift their forward operating bases from Saudi Arabia which was pissing off people like Bin Laden and plenty of other people.
There are several solutions to re stabilize the region which have been put forward. The best IMO is to involve other countries in the stabilization process. Another would be to bring the troops home and let the people decide it while blocking the borders off to outside influence. If the decide it by violence one way or another a side will lose and sue for peace. There are several theories posed by legitimate scholars who have put forth that what the US is really doing is continually destabilizing the country and stopping peace from happening so as to keep a presence in the region. The Project for the New American Century calls on the US to flex its military muscle so to speak rather than merely having a covert presence in the region.
So to put it succinctly I disagree and think that by examining the facts and putting two and two together we can say the US is not even looking to end the problems or for peace, but fueling a middle-eastern conflict. Either that or they are just completely inept and stupid, which I don't think is the case. Of course we could examine the motives behind this more deeply but I don't want to talk about peak oil or monetary policies that in depth unless other people do. |
| PJK |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 9:25:25 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We need to withdrawal by first making the gravest apology to the region for being an abusive, molesting step-father for half a decade, then help build a regional coalition of all those fucking oil-soaking rich countries to help rebuild Iraq AND Lebanon with NON-AMERICAN contractors. Our business there should have never been 'business' to begin with.
Amen!
Remember, Sadam was surprised when America got mad for the invasion of Kuwait. There was NO reason for him to think he wasn't justified to reclaim territory that was theirs to begin with. In his and Iraq's eyes, Kuwait was an annex.
Also, that there is NO solution to Iraq now that won't involve massive bloodshed. What will most likely happen is another divided country (just like the British and European countries had a habbit of doing, ie: Africa, and Middle East, etc etc)
We need to get out of Iraq, and get out NOW! Stay a year, stay ten years stay 50 years and get no where. There is NO WINNING this war, there is only greater loss. Don't believe for a minute that it can get better. This is very much like Vietnam.
****Interesting that we still don't know what target Israel hit in Syria. No one is talking.
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| Hopeful Rolling Waves |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 8:22:54 PM
We need to withdrawal by first making the gravest apology to the region for being an abusive, molesting step-father for half a decade, then help build a regional coalition of all those fucking oil-soaking rich countries to help rebuild Iraq AND Lebanon with NON-AMERICAN contractors. Our business there should have never been 'business' to begin with.
We've fucked up the world so many times for gain of wealth and power without any regard for consequences affecting anything other than our pocketbook or perceived power. I hate being an American. I fucking hate it. It's a perverse country built on top of the graves of those who first walked its ground, and respected it thusly. We're ALL second-rate citizens, and it's horrible.
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| Arthen |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 7:49:07 PM
Yeah, but Iraq has become the old joke my father used to tell me as a life lesson:
What's the difference between a lightbulb and a pregnant woman?
You can't unscrew a pregnant woman.
Iraq has become the pregnant woman. We've fucked it and I don't think we can leave, otherwise it'll just fall into more and more chaos. We have to clean up the mess as best as possible, so I think the military has a vital role, but I agree with your sentiments about them being unable to help political crises. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 7:20:47 PM
Ya, the congressional or political game now is to pretty much occupy us with divisive issues that waste everyones time. Confuse the peasants, Divide the peasants... That whole thing.
As for Petraeus, I think he's a douchebag of incredible caliber.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/12/1410237&mode=thread&tid=25
I especially like the part about 190,000 weapons going missing during his tenure, and him arming paramilitary forces. To say he is a quaterback coming in the 4th quarter and he's just screwed because things are too far gone is complete and total BS. He was totally involved in starting civil war in Iraq through arming and training militias. Of course I would expect that kind of BS from someone like Clark after the way he handled military actions in eastern europe. Also Petraeus' plan to stop counterinsurgency is to basically get a lot more troops over there to help the ratio of insurgents to troops.
When are people going to understand that the military is great at blowing things up and killing and all that, but they are horrible for solving political problems, which is what the issue is. You can not have a military solution to a political problem, and it drives me fucking nuts that people don't get this. That's why putting generals in charge of rebuilding Iraq and solving the problems is a joke. A very sick joke, and if you look at all the past generals from Iraq that have retired and stepped down they will all tell you that the don't know shit about fixing this stuff. They're really good at military stuff though. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 5:26:31 PM
The idea that moveon.org "earned" condemnation from the Senate, just shows how stupid and useless people in government are, wasting time with such an idiotic endeavor. However I don't find it an attack on the first ammendment. They simply condemned the group for saying what they did. That's stupid, but allowed. They have not arrested anyone related to Moveon.org or attempt to stop them from speaking again. In fact, such a reaction from the republicans, and every democrat that went along with their tail between their legs, would only encourage me to keep making such statements.
A note for moveon.org though, I don't think such advertisements are going to do much, and I've always felt so. They, like a lot of other groups, are just preaching to the choir. And while I may or may not agree with their messages, they aren't going to get much in the way of new recruits in that way. Especially using a message like that against someone who has a higher credibility than Pres. Bush on the war, at least in a poll I saw.
As for Petraeus, who has a badass name for a general he sounds like a Gladiator, I caught a really interesting interview with Gen. Wesley Clark on the Daily Show who knew and talked about Petraeus. Clark said something along the lines of Petraeus is a third string quarterback thrown into a football game in the fourth quarter where he's team is already down 20points and he's told to win the game. I think that's a pretty fair statement of the guy and at times I feel kind of bad for him, along with any other military member involved in Iraq bullshit. |
| KevinLesko |
Posted - 09/21/2007 : 5:26:25 PM
I saw that story yesterday on cnn.com and I too was pretty sickened.
AS IF THEY HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO?!?!?!?!?! |
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