| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| therippa |
Posted - 09/30/2004 : 11:29:47 PM
It's 30 minutes in, and Kerry is making Bush look like a silly bitch.
Thank god. |
| 100 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 12:56:02 PM
s'alright. there was a lot of big words there i don't understand and wanted to see if the site you got it from explained some of it. biology isn't my thing. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/28/2004 : 10:59:38 PM
Sorry dan it was off the web, but I forgot to post the link and now I don't know where it was from. The first time I heard about this stuff a guy on democracy now was talking all about this stuff. Google will bring up all kinds of stuff though. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 10:45:00 PM
where's that from? |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 10:24:49 PM
Yeah Arthen they've actually been doing that too since some antibiotics have become less effective. Just so long as people realize that antibiotics should be used as seldom as possible and when you use them you have to make sure that you use a full prescription to make sure the bacteria is killed off. Often people use them and start to feel somewhat better and quit. By that time the bacteria has become immune to the antibiotic. That's what's not good. You have to make another antibiotic then to kill off the new bacteria. So eventually a situation could arise where the bacteria is so resistant to our antibiotics that it would be very deadly. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 4:01:24 PM
I don't know if it is in argument to that idea, but I have heard of ways that scientists can alter (probably genetically) the current antibiotics to create different forms that can still combat bacteria, etc. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 1:24:04 PM
See dan that's why I like you because you look past all these nationalities and that and just hate everyone equally.
Now antibiotics. Some go as far to say they are going to be the death of man. I don't know about that I think we'll be gone before then but that's just me. So Arthen pretty much said it. It's about the overuse of antibiotics and bacteria evolving and becoming immune to them. So that in theory we are creating new bacteria so strong it could wipe out man or at least have devastating effects on man. Also there is a far greater chance that childeren who have over three cycles of antibiotics will experience developmental delays.
quote:
Acquired resistance
Many bacteria acquire resistance to one or more of the antibiotics to which they were formerly susceptible.
Example: In the U.S. in the decade from 1985-1995, resistance of Shigella (which causes gastrointestinal illness) to ampicillin grew from 32% to 67%. And, while only 7% of these isolates were resistant to the combination of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim at the start of the decade, that figure had grown to 35% by the end of the decade.
Bacteria develop resistance by acquiring genes encoding proteins that protect them from the effects of the antibiotic. In some cases the genes arise by mutation; in others, they are acquired from other bacteria that are already resistant to the antibiotic. The genes are often found on plasmids which spread easily from one bacterium to another — even from one species of bacterium to another.
Examples:
Synthesis of the enzyme penicillinase — or other beta-lactamases — provides protection from the beta-lactam antibiotics. These enzyme break the beta-lactam ring at the position shown with the green arrow in the diagram of penicillin G.
Likewise synthesis of cephalosporinases defeats the cephalosporins.
Some bacteria modify their DNA gyrase thus defeating quinolones.
Some bacteria synthesize "pumps" in their plasma membrane through which they remove antibiotics like tetracyclines from the interior of the cell.
Bacteria may methylate their ribosomes obscuring the target of antibiotics (e.g., erythromycin) that ordinarily bind to and inactivate the ribosome — or conversely
they may enzymatically modify the antibiotic (e.g., kanamycin) so it can no longer "see" its ribosomal target.
Bacteria may modify the structure of their peptidoglycan wall and thus avoid the inhibitory effects of antibiotics like cycloserine.
An alarming number of human pathogens have acquired genes to combat all the presently-used antibiotics except vancomycin and recently vancomycin-resistant bacteria have appeared. These multidrug-resistant strains are particularly common in hospitals where antibiotic use is heavy, and the patients often have weakened immune systems.
So the fact that we are constantly injecting cows with them to keep their swollen udders (BGH hormones) from infection could have disasterous results. It isn't a very wise use of medicine just to get some more milk from cows. Besides the quality of the milk drops. It's nasty. I'm probably not the most qualified to talk about this stuff but that's basically it. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 1:09:16 PM
I don't get Columbus day off anymore. Or Veteran's day. The two holidays that CSU Chico have deemed appropriate to cancel classes for are Labor Day and Cesar Chavez day. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 12:23:57 PM
Fair enough. I was just saying it's a matter of respect. Without stating that there's no offense intended, I could easily see someone assuming that there was. Like you, it wouldn't personally offend me if someone were to insult my not-so-homeland, it's just the concept in general that bothers me. The same goes for black people being called the words you mentioned...while I'm not black, I still find it offensive. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 11:27:23 AM
no, i wouldn't call a black person a nigger because that specific slur is used against black people. i wouldn't call them thick lips or spear chucker for the same reason.
alright james. if you want to extend that slur to apply to americans, then so be it. but then more or less every term is an insult to an american, because americans have so many different nationalities mixed within them. is that something you really want to deal with? my way is easier, though. you can call me a kraut, a guinea, or a mick until the moon falls from the sky. it won't offend me because, although some of my relatives in the qucikly fading past are from the countries those words slur against, i am not. and you can make fun of them all you want, but they're all dead, so they can't hear you. besides all of which, i can't recall the last time i cared about anything a racist said.
i agree that racism shouldn't be tolerated, but unless lovetoday is a racist, which i'm going to go ahead and assume she isn't, then i still fail to see the problem. her use of the word guinea seems to have been made to take colombus down from his holiday man status, not to make fun of italians. words mean only what the speaker intends them to mean. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 11:05:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LoveToday
Or do they teach what REALLY happened when Some frigging guinea stumbled into someone
Mind your tongue. And Dan, that slur has just as much to do with Italian Americans as it does with Italians. I'm not even remotely Italian, but racism or "nation"ism or whatever you want to call it shouldn't be tolerated. I have no problem with people that have pride for a land they are descendent from, but did not live in. Their ancestors came from there and it's a part of who they are.
I'm mostly English, and while I don't have a lot of homeland pride, lol...it'd still bother me to be generalized by some ignorant slur.
quote:
Math is another one..... my daughter can do long division in her head. WHAY IS THAT NOT ENOUGH?
For a number of reasons, not the least of which is to prevent cheating. There's also a large group of people that can do most simple mathematics such as long division in their heads, until they reach a certain number of integers in the divisor/dividend/quotient. Good luck dividing a number that has 50 digits in your head and remembering it all. I can do a fair amount of calculus in my head...but believe me, if I just wrote the answer down when I was in college, that wouldn't fly, and for good reason.
It's like saying "I know the answers, why do I have to take the test to prove that I know the answers?!". It sucks, I hated solving simple algebraic equations with 4 lines instead of stating the obvious, but sometimes you have to go through the motions. Consider the alternative of not being able to do long division at all...I'd be happy and not "put so much emphasis on the small stuff".
|
| LoveToday |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 10:54:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Miss Sorrel
And by the way Love Today, Columbus wasn't a guinea, at least that's not what they were calling him the 15th century.... And even if you wanted to toss around racial slur, you are actually generalizing him as being from a place that he is not.
Not to sound like a bitch... and I really like and agree with many of the things you said... but that just made every Italian bone in my body ache.
I am sorry. I am usually so much better than that.
I didn't mean for that to sound like a racial slur, it just came out that way. I was getting pretty aggravated writing that post. I have this debate at least twice a year. I can't help but to stand on the side of the natives that were here already when he discovered this place and took credit. The hunters/gatherers who knew how to take from the earth and give back so that there would always be enough for the future, those are the ones who got screwed and now our pansy-ass kids get the day off in celebration of such dastardly deeds. Christopher Colombus could have been from Mars and it still would piss me off. |
| Miss Sorrel |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 08:54:12 AM
Dan P. I understand what you are saying, and I was waiting for somebody to make some comment like this. You got it, I am from America, 1st generation... I have pride in my background, but don't parade it. However... I know the struggles that my family went through... The racism, that isn't even worth getting into over this board... Please forgive me for being compassionate and empathetic for the people that I love. Do you call black people the "N-word"... and say, "why does it bother you?? You weren't a slave?" And please don't jump on the oppurtunity here... I am not comparing my family's issues to slavery... Just struck a chord.
And besides, what I was saying was that it was actually the wrong racial slur. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 02:11:22 AM
I'm not too sure about this, but I always believed that the over use of antibiotics would eventually lead to infections (and such things) becoming immune to the antibiotics.
I could be completely wrong though. I've got not facts. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 12:24:25 AM
i'm going to have to plead ignorance on this one, zach. what's harmful to me about anti-biotics injected into cows? i'm not disagreeing or challenging you, i just don't know for sure what the danger is. if you want to hit me up with some information, please do.
miss sorrel, you're from italy? or are you an american that takes offense to racial slurs that don't apply to americans? there's a lot of this. i know this girl, and i absolutely adore her, but she's very into this whole "irish pride" thing. and she gets super pissed whenever anyone says anything about the irish. what i don't understand about that kind of nationality pride in general (this goes for "proud to be an american" too) is that, in short, there's nothing to be proud of. why take pride in something you had no part in doing. these people must really flip their shit when they actually accomplish something. how come there's no "brown hair pride?" about as much effort goes into that as into being, say, german or italian. save pride for things you do, not for things that you are by happenstance.
if you're from italy, ms. sorrel, then i understand you're disapproval of the word. but if you're american, i can't see how it bothers you. it's for italians. not americans. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:36:31 PM
If it wasn't for my high school teachers, I never would've become interested in becoming an educator. |
| Miss Sorrel |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:34:15 PM
Oh no! I know that you weren't saying that our fellow h.s. Aboard Friends don't have valid opinions... it was more of my opinion! I just had to toss in my experience... If it weren't for Miss Kepler, I'd still be working at the Bubble Room... uugghh |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:27:15 PM
I'm glad to hear that a high school teacher had such a big impact upon your life. I feel quite lucky that I had a handful of teachers that had an impact upon mine. Unfortunately, now a days I don't see this as being typical.
And by no means was I trying to say that people in high school don't have valid opinions. I think it's a far statement to make that the people on this board who are in high school seem more informed than the high school students I normally deal with. But then I'd make that statement about the people on the board, seeming to be more informed than the populous as a whole. |
| Miss Sorrel |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 10:13:00 PM
And by the way Love Today, Columbus wasn't a guinea, at least that's not what they were calling him the 15th century.... And even if you wanted to toss around racial slur, you are actually generalizing him as being from a place that he is not.
Not to sound like a bitch... and I really like and agree with many of the things you said... but that just made every Italian bone in my body ache. |
| Miss Sorrel |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 9:57:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
It's completely ridiculous to expect a high school history class to analyze the actual reasons the US did something. The point of high school history classes are to provide a solid background in events that happened, not why they happened.
High school is for learning what happened.
College is for learning why they happened.
And if I understood your post correctly Zach, you want us to go back to being a hunter/gatherer society?
I know this is so random and less serious than what is being said, but Arthen I beg to differ with you. In many cases, I am sure you are right, but this isn't always true. My history teacher literally changed my life. I learned more from her in my Junior year of high school then I did earning my minor in Political Science... That's not to knock my college education... it's been a fantastic one... But there is no denying that a high school teacher taught me more of how and why American government is the way it is.
There are a lot of high school people on this board, and I wouldn't knock their opinion because they haven't reached a higher education... Otherwise, you know I love everything else that you say... but, whoa, had to put in my 86 cents here!
|
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 9:06:53 PM
I love animals. They taste delicious.
How do you know a hunter/gatherer lifestyle is TOTALLY gratifying?
Actually, under a certain set of beliefs Jesus was perfect. But that would depend on one's ideas of being perfect. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 8:54:58 PM
Everyone should drink organic milk for two reasons... One it just tastes so much better and two the fact that cows are constantly being injected with anti-botics is frightening. I don't think everyone (including myself) fully understand how dangerous anti-biotics are to the world.
Dan it's so true that some of the people I know who are all into animal rights stuff are still dicks but even Ghandi wasn't perfect and neither was jesus. So I think where the real problem with animal abuse stuff lies is in changing our culture. Like once people are no longer so damn athropocentric it goes with out saying that the animal rights problem would disappear. |
| LoveToday |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 6:02:22 PM
It just makes me feel better knowing that the way I handle the food issue is "to the best of my ability". If everyone did that and really strived to be aware of where their food comes from, it would inevitably bring down the level of disease not only for animals but for people.
In case you didn't notice in my post, I have a 6-point deer in my garage right now. It's not so much about animal rights as animal skank. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 5:42:50 PM
quote:
Thats too bad. It's strange to think that such a hard working and TOTALLY gratifying way of life is no longer needed. We don't have to hunt (Tell that to the 6-pointer hanging in my garage right now) because we can just go to SHAWS and pick up some hormone infested mad cow burgers plated with pesticide laden vegetables and fruit picked by 4th grade chilean graduates all washed down with a tall cold glass of antiboitic puss from some poor cow stuffed into a 3 foot wide stall for it's ENTIRE life.
oh yay, you're one of these people. i eat hormone infested mad cow burgers. i eat pesticide laden vegetables, i eat 4th grade chilean graduates, and i drink antibiotic puss from some poor cow stuffed into a 3 foot wide stall for it's entire life. and you know something? i feel fucking great, because it doesn't matter. first of all, how does it feel to know that these cows either know about you nor would care about you if they could. stop worrying about animals that too stupid to know the difference and start caring about people who no one cares for. and when i say "you" i don't mean lovetoday, i'm sure you're a fine person. i mean every animal rights activist i know, which is a lot. these people treat their fellow man like shit and then think they're fucking heros for standing up for livestock. they're still bad people for being jerks to humans. i was arguing with a vegan not too long ago and he tried to fucking hit me. yeah, a real purehearted humanitarian. they hep animals because the animals won't notice their gaping personality flaws. again lovetoday, not you. well maybe you, maybe not. i don't know you. i'm assuming not you.
about pesticides. you. . .you do WASH vegetables before you eat them, right? because water gets a lot of that stuff right out. it also gets out insect shit, as i understand it. and if it doesn't, so what? your body isn't going to turn to dust by eating some insecticides. in fact, it makes it stronger. a lot organic food eaters i know, and again, i know a few, are frail, weak and constantly sick. it's because they treat themselves like they're made of glass. i eat like shit, and i'll be dead around 10 years before i should be, but the last ten years of like usually suck anyway. |
| LoveToday |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 5:04:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
It's completely ridiculous to expect a high school history class to analyze the actual reasons the US did something. The point of high school history classes are to provide a solid background in events that happened, not why they happened.
A solid background... in American History? Is that why we celebrate Colombus Day? Or do they teach what REALLY happened when Some frigging guinea stumbled into someone elses backyard and decided to not only PRETEND he discovered it but also decided genocide would be the best bet?
As far as political history, the text books read like novels more than lessons. They teach us what they want us to know.
Math is another one..... my daughter can do long division in her head. WHAY IS THAT NOT ENOUGH? Why must she write everything down in long form to prove to the institution that she knows what she is doing? The correct answer is not enough? Will she be tested as she is counting her money at the grocery store, will she be forbidden to leave until she can put in writing how she came to her conclusion? Or will handing the person the right amount of money and leaving with her stuff be all right? If so..... then leave the kid alone. We put too much emphasis on the small stuff and all it does is freak the kids out and make them not want to learn. |
| LoveToday |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 4:49:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
I think it's a safe assumption to make that we're not going to be switiching back to a hunter/gatherer society.
Thats too bad. It's strange to think that such a hard working and TOTALLY gratifying way of life is no longer needed. We don't have to hunt (Tell that to the 6-pointer hanging in my garage right now) because we can just go to SHAWS and pick up some hormone infested mad cow burgers plated with pesticide laden vegetables and fruit picked by 4th grade chilean graduates all washed down with a tall cold glass of antiboitic puss from some poor cow stuffed into a 3 foot wide stall for it's ENTIRE life.
whew... needed to get that out!
I don't know if anyone watches Last Comic Standing but one of the comedians Dave Mordall made a funny point.
"If we didn't eat cows, there wouldn't even be cows. Ever seen
a wild cow?"
So basically I agree but only to the point of raising your own food. Or better known as "Hunting and Gathering".
|
| LoveToday |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 4:38:53 PM
I give it 10 years and we will be "affectionately" known as.........
The United States of WalMart......brought to you in part by China. |
| therippa |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 2:24:31 PM
Breaktime everyone...click the pic for stuff that's funny
 |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 3:18:46 PM
Sorry if I made schools sound evil I only meant to say they were flawed. In the same respect though they fufil the need that our society has. It's just it doesn't fit with any notion I have of what a good working society.
Our culture may not go back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle but I think if they don't make a change in that direction the species and maybe the world will be done shortly. Considering we are the only species living outside of the basic right way to live that is followed by all the other species on this planet it's just a fundamental thing that the earth will right itself by destroying us that is if we don't destroy it first. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 04:19:44 AM
I think it's a safe assumption to make that we're not going to be switiching back to a hunter/gatherer society. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 01:12:35 AM
so you're fine with people conforming. . .as long they're conforming to something YOU think is right. and then you turn around and speak ill of school for getting kids to conform to something IT (and let's say corporations, just for kicks) thinks is right. and the difference between you and them would be what? besides they're doing a better job getting kids to conform.
i don't blame you for not being impressed with the school system. it's not impressive. but it's not a tool of evil, either. it's just flawed.
my school wasn't great either. i mean, they tried to get more than one view out there. that's a plus. but they weren't very focused on making the kids learn. they were more focused on getting them to look good on paper, so they can get into a good college and make the school look good. the kids jump through some hoops, get rewarded with grades they don't deserve. here's a perfect illustration. in most of my classes, i almost never got below an a on tests. but because i'm a lazy son of a bitch, i never bothered to do homework. a missing homework assignment resulted, in many clases, as a percentage point off the final average. and we have homework 5 days a week. i did maybe, half of those. i failed the class because i didn't do work i didn't need to do. it's also a practice at my school to give someone a minimum of 55 for a class if they get below that the first two semesters. obviously i only did that in health class. my real average the 2nd semester was a 29 or something. but before i had got a 90. the 29 turned into a 55 and i ended up with some grade i didn't earn. my own music teachers gave substandard, and sometimes absolutely incorrect answers and instruction rather than taking the trouble to explain a little extra to the class. and that hurt me later. my school looks great to the state of new york, because they don't keep track of the number of people from there who fail out of college.
if you want to live a hunter/gatherer life, then go live it somewhere, if that's what you want. it's not a bad idea. but if it seems a little too impractical for you, then don't dwell on it. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 10:50:40 PM
Dan it's not the conforming that bothers me. It's what people are conforming too. I don't know what else to say about the education system other than I am not impressed. I didn't go to your school and it may have been better than mine but that's not sayign much considering we had half of our class left at graduation. That's why I say if you are going into education read some John Dewey. I think you'll agree with his views on education and don't worry it's not even really all that close to what I'm saying about schools.
I know I'm a little over the top in haitng realists but it's just one of those things that annoys me is when people tell me they are a realist cause it doesn't mean shit to me. Everyone analyze what's realistic and it just seems to me that people to often let someone else decide it for them. So everyone is a realist I just don't like people going around telling me they are like it means something.
Arthen to keep it simple yes I do want to go back to a hunter gatherer lifestyle. It sounds good to me. 10 maybe 20 hours of work a week at the most. Food is plentiful. Lesuire time is plentiful. It worked for over a million years till 10,000 years ago people started to aggressively encourage their favorite foods to grow and now look how screwed up the world is. I mean it's literally and overpopulated time bomb. Food production goes up every year though and every year we kill off more animals and yada yada yada. It's the only way man can surrvive because it's the only way to follow the laws that govern life. It's simple biology or anthropology. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 12:39:32 AM
the people you met who claimed to be realists weren't realists. they were, in fact, quitters. they took stock of whatever situations effected them, and then, rather than do what they can about it, they just went "well, fuck it." and conformed. that's not realism. that's failing humanity, and it's failing yourself. a realist, at least the kind i am, would see a problem, let's say education, and say "i want to do everything but i won't waste myself on working towards the impossible." really all you can do is the best you can. i believe large scale media reform is possible. you and i may be dead before it's complete. do what you can to change it. i know i won't single handedly reform education. it's not my goal. my goal is to help create as many talented, creative, intelligent musicians who are honest and strong willed as i can. these people may in turn help save the dying art of music, and teach others to do so. so you can tell me i conform too easily to other people's ideas of what's possible, and you can call me a passive learner. i know that's not true. and what i know about me is ultimately what matters.
it's weird you mentioned zinn books. because "you can't be neutral on a moving train" was required fucking reading my sophmore year. people failed because they didn't read it. we also went on a field trip to see "bowling for columbine." (as well as the two towers!) i passed off your anti-school statements as childish ranting, because i've heard most of the things you're saying from people i have no respect for. they too are conforming. conforming to the stereotype of a young liberal. i generally hold low opinions of liberals my age and younger. obviously someone like you is a little better read than others, although i noticed you mention larely books that share your view. what do you read from the other side?
you also don't need to graduate to be part of society. well first of all, knocking a school you barely attended and got out of is absurd. and secondly, a friend of mine dropped out of high school, and he's doing fine. he's happy. sure, he'll never be wildly wealthy. he'll never own a whole lot of stuff. but he's happy with what he has. that right there is more sucessful than so many money hungry pricks who end up sucking down a hot 9mm of lead because they realize their existance is defined solely by materials and nothing else. dropping is not something i'd do, but it's no sin, and not a sentence to failure. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 11:32:25 PM
It's completely ridiculous to expect a high school history class to analyze the actual reasons the US did something. The point of high school history classes are to provide a solid background in events that happened, not why they happened.
High school is for learning what happened.
College is for learning why they happened.
And if I understood your post correctly Zach, you want us to go back to being a hunter/gatherer society? |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 9:36:01 PM
Well if it sounds like I've got something against realists it's because I do. Everyone who has ever said to me I'm a realist I usually dislike already. In fact I've never met anyone I've liked who has come out and said I'm a realist. It's just if you try to have a conversation about anything with someone who is a realist and you are talking about media reform or anything they always just say that they are realists and it just won't happen. The problem is that anyone who is a realist often too easily accepts someone else ideas on what is realistic and conform to that.
Anyway I agree that at this point it's useless to vote third party and expect results. It's going to take a large cultural shift to make that possible. That's another reason why I dislike this realist stuff because people are all conforming to the idea that a third party will never win so even though I think a majority of people would go third party these days it won't happen. It's the way things work though.
Now as for me being a conspiricy nut or something like that it made me laugh. Look corporations shape our society and in fact dominate foreign and domestic policy. I'm not really going to get into it. If you don't think it does read some chomsky. Now as for the education system I might have gone a little over the top but still do you really think the goal of the education system in this country is to teach them to think? No it's always been to conform to society and learn skills so they are useful to the business world. Read John Dewey and some of his writing on education it's genious at least. Sure school teaches you to read and write and really that's all it taught me or close to it. I always say I got two educations. One taught me to read and the other was from reading. Also the propaganda in history especially but in other areas is so bad and a short comparison in the average school curriculum compared to a peoples history is astonishing in that it covered almost nothing Zinn did. It's not the facts they mentioned it's what they didn't mention. I mean I learned in high school the US went into Vietnam to stop communism. Which of course is total Bull Shit. Then the problem with the war wasn't the war itself but that we couldn't kill charlie good enough and win. It's just sick. The WWII is sick too. It's just that history is written by the ruling class and so you get their version and that's what people think is truth.
Now the worst thing though is that school is by design meant to turn people into passive learners. Look at how almost any class is structured. I'm a believer in what dewey said that you learn by watching then doing. So when kids sit around in class and just listen to a teacher tell them how to get the right answers for a test so they can recieve accredidation they become passive learners. It really institutionalizes them. Chomsky on Mis-Education is a great book for a look into our education systems. Also Jane Jacobs has written some great things about education systems in her books and she knows what's up. Now textbooks whether they are in date or out still suck pretty bad and because they are made and approved by what? Hmm book comapies (I won't call them corporations so no one freaks out). Hmm what intrest would a large business have in continuing to raise kids up to support the corporate system? I mean just look how they idolize leaders and shoot out patriotic BS. The curriculum sucks.
Dan I will say there are a few damn good teachers out there but where I went to school it was far and few between. I would like to mention that I was fooled and a part of the propaganda and system BS and only after I got out of school was I able to break away from it and begin to learn how to think. It's just that schools are in terrible shape and that's sad since we really could have a better education system. I hated school though and I never went and I barely graduated but I know that you have to jump through the hoops and get accredited if you want to be part of society and I don't but I'm at a loss of what else to do right now so I'm conforming because that's my choice. Conform to this way of life or be wiped out. So I'm saying it did control my mind whether or not you think school has shaped your mind is up to you but I think that you probably didn't escape it if you graduated.
James I don't know why you think that it should be easy for a corporation to do what they do and then it should be hard for everyone to do what it is they do. Look if you want a society to change and people to help themselves you have to make it easier for them to do so. It's harder for some then others. The thing is that it could be done too, but that means economic restructure and that's just not in with the ruling classes ideas of how to run things. I just find it amusing that you will obviously state that the world has a lot wrong with it and always will because people a are greedy and then you turn around and support the greediest mother fuckers on this planet. The top 10% of the country is who profits and benifits from big business. If you realize that greed is not a good thing how can you support it? Have you ever analyzed our banking system. Look at this idea that says well we are going to make the price of living so high that people pretty much have to get loans so they can afford shelter or the have to pay into a rent system. So that way we can give them say $100 and they can pay us $10 on top of it. It's the way to make money. If you ever have time look at the control Citi-bank has over the world financially. I'm not just anti-big business for no reason. It's because there are a minority of greedy assholes running the world and damaging people's lives and the earth itself.
I can discuss this more in depth but I'd rather you just read some different stuff and looked at the data. If you can't explain to me at least generally how the propaganda system works in this country and how corporations affect the shaping of culture and minds and policies domestic and foreign it means you are a part of it and you're being taken in with the propaganda. I'm alway glad to hear there are people who work hard and stop at nothing to surrvive but it just goes to show how into the system you are that you think everything should be hard and that humans should have a hard life. Go live with some bushmen and see all the lesuire time they get in life. See how easy it is for them to surrvive. Look at the studies done when people move from a foraging or hunter gatherer lifestyle into an agricultural lifstye and how much harder it is on people. Our society sucks ass. So either be anti-greed and thus anit-big business or just say that you fucking agree that all men are not created equal and that there should be rulers and servants. Or that you agree completely that the top 7% of this country should hold almost 70% of the countries wealth. This all might sound ridiculous to you as it would to anyone who hasn't really looked into it but it's the truth.
I also urge you to study some of things Jefferson said about what would happen when the moneyed powers took over. Look at the things they pointed out that was wrong with Brittian and it's no surprise that the same stuff is going on today only the US is now doing it. The fact that you might not know this stuff or realize how the system works just shows how you are being indoctrinated by the system. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 5:09:34 PM
your over the top fbi angent thing made me smirk a little bit. but i don't understand something. you're an idealist when it comes to hopes/dreams thing, but you're a realist in practice? i don't know. maybe other people understand what you're getting at better than i do, because i've always felt it's what you do counts. that was one of the big problems i had when i was a catholic. they told me that adultry in action or thought is a sin. and i think that's absurd. the thought process doesn't make a person anything. what you do is everything.
zach, while maybe a little extreme, does recoginize the cookie cutter style teaching method that a lot of teachers use. it's easier that way, because there are so many kids that teaching becomes exceedingly difficult when taking into account every kid, as opposed to viewing the kids as one body. being able to not do that is what, in my mind, seperates the great teacher from the average teacher. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 3:22:42 PM
I agree with pretty much everything you said, Dan. Earlier when I said I was a realist and an idealist, I realize the paradox there. What I was implying is that I'm an idealist when it comes to hopes/dreams/thought processes and what "could be". I'm a realist in practice. I won't vote for some 3rd party candidate whose opinions I fully support if I know for a fact that he isn't going to win the election. Yes, I realize the problems inherent with that philosophy...but say I was a huge Nader supporter. We all know he isn't going to win the election or do anything other than piss off some democrats. Voting for him is pointless until/unless you can get massive support for him nationwide.
You're so anti-"big business" that you honestly believe that corporations are shaping the school's "agenda"? After pondering this for five minutes, I was hard pressed to recall a single example supporting this theory (from my education anyway). Every history book I read was almost entirely fact based, and the parts that were opinion based were well delimited. Almost all references to big business had to do with the whole Rockefeller/Carnegie monopolies and failed to mention any current world examples (textbooks are out of date, that's another problem).
If you believe that the "agenda" of the school systems is to support big business and turn us all into drones that take our place in society without aspiring for a better world, wow. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You sound like some conspiracy theorist who fears everything. Are teachers all FBI agents who went to special training courses on how to manipulate our minds into becoming "passive robots"? Or maybe they're alien life forms that have been conforming us for years. I think you need to relax.
"If you want people to be working parts of society you have to provide an enviroment in which it's an easy choice for them to do so."? Bullshit. Why does everything have to be easy? God, I am so sick of this "woe is me" crap. "But it's not easy to get a job!". No, but it's not easy for anyone. It took me 6 months to get a job, but I didn't give up and I didn't file for unemployment. This sense of entitlement is what really frosts me. |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 1:46:02 PM
although this probably belongs in the conspiracy theories thread...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=15&u=/nm/20041022/pl_nm/campaign_skullandbones_dc |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 12:33:07 AM
realists conform to reality? what's wrong with that? they've made an assessment on how they think something is and they go with that. that's all anyone has is their perception of reality. i mean, yeah, if you see something you don't like, you do what you can to change it. but the changes you're talking about, although undoubtedly good, are so profound, so fundemental and equally complex that the idea of it just seems absurd. a good realist understands the difference between working for achievable change and wasting time and enegry. they all too often get hit with the "pessimist" label because they don't share in fanciful pipe dreams.
i also find your take on school disturbing. as an aspiring teacher, it's very frustrating to see someone pass off school as a conformist, mind control prison or whatever you called it. it sounds like typical teenage rebel stuff. generally from juniors and seniors who slant decidedly to the left. but let me ask you this. you like books, right? where did you learn to read? where did you learn to write? think about everything you know and do. how much of that would be left to you without your education? that's rhetorical. you learned at school. before you knock it, realize what exactly it did for you. i know it's not perfect. it's far from perfect. history and music ciriculum, i noticed, generally lack greatly. also, you say it's a mind controling institute. but it hasn't controlled your mind. it hasn't controlled my mind. it hasn't controlled all my friends minds. are you saying you're somehow very special? am i? no. we're just dudes. maybe schools just controls people who's minds are weak. and if that's the case, i'm not worried about minds weak enough to be controlled so easily. not much good would come from them.
also, if you don't like school, don't fucking go. i'd be hesitant to teach some kid who so violently opposes school. why be in my class if not to learn? it'd be a waste of your time and it'd be a waste of my time. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 11:12:30 PM
Ok now that I'm done with school for the day I have to just add to the above post that I think the rhetoric about helping people to help themselves is kinda funny. I agree with the statement whole heartedly. If you can help someone help themselves it is much better than just having them relying on you for the rest of their lives. The thing is that it's not the statement I disagree with it's what's usually behind the statement. What it usually seems to imply is that welfare spending needs to be cut. While people usually offer no alternative to the problem of poverty. However if you really want to help people help themselves then you need do everything in your power to get large corporations and minority interests of the upper class out of power.
People's minds are being controlled from a young age when we institutionalize them and send them to prison like learning centers from a young age. The agenda shaping the minds of the future is not to have them change things for the better but accept their place in the world and become passive robots. I think it's safe to say that the business world has shaped education. I don't know if you have any idea or not what it's like to be born to a really poor family in a bad neighborhood. You have to except that the system shapes people into what they are and it's a huge part of our culture. So the basic idea is to use public funding to try to declare a war on poverty. Not perpetuate the welfare state that will eventually fail. That would cost more then welfare.
If you want people to be working parts of society you have to provide an enviroment in which it's an easy choice for them to do so. It's not the way it is now. You don't support people whose answer to crime is build more prisons. You also don't keep repressive economic and social policies around. Basically if you want people to be able to help themselves you have to actually make that a real possibility which is going to require a fundemental change in this countries policies. The best help is always self help but it's to a point where people really can't help themselves and the best that a lot of people can expect out of life is that they will be able to surrvive and raise kids that might be able to bust out of the cycle of poverty. I just want you to realize that for the first time ever since polls have really been going kids are now saying they don't think that they'll have a chance to live as well as their parents did. That's pretty shitty since the majority of people I know work 40+ hours a week at a job they dislike just to be able to get by.
Society will just go on though keeping it's food under lock and key and making people work so hard just to surrvive. All the time thinking that it's the way humans were meant to live. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 4:31:50 PM
James I don't have time to re-read my post but I meant to say that middle classs people pay more then the rich percentage wise. There's a good book about the US tax system called America who really pays the taxes(If my memory serves me correctly). LIke you said the average american gets screwed while the poor and the rich pay less and less all the time.
I'm glad you've read Zinn and Marx and all but I never said you didn't it's just most of the people that start using the same logic as you do about stuff never have and don't know shit about it.
At the same time though you say communism doesn't work but how the hell would you know because it's never been tried. It's just like me saying the free-market capitalist system doesn't work because that has also never been tried. Elements of both systems have been enacted in one way or another but a full system has never made it.
Also if you get pissed at comments about the hard working guy vs. the cushy job man I don't know what I get because it's just ridiculous to think that because one guy went to college he obviously works harder or because he makes more money he works harder. You should do some research and look back at the histories of some poor families. I mean one friend of mine who is poor his dad and mom work there asses off. Talk to them about their parents and they also worked there asses off but they didn't ever get the opportunity to really take off and get rich they had to work hard to surrvive. Then keep following it back and all the sudden you're into his ancestors that were slaves. I mean ya you might be able to find a slacker somewhere along the line but it's not like every generation participated in some sort of slave labor so far.
So I don't buy it. Ya I realize that people work hard and they deserve the money they worked for. However it's in no means fair that someone makes more money for equal work than someone just because they went to school and got accredited to do something specialized. In a working society everyone plays a role and if you take away any role then the society will collapse or adjust probably but it will be hurt. So why does the guy that came out of high school and works hard have to make less then the guy who was privleged enough to go to school. They both put in hard work and continue to do so. Also an education can't be bought with money but you can get accredited with it. The problem is that we are always going to have poor people busting there ass living a shitty life while the upper classes and privledged people with money have it comparitively easy. So the system we have today fails to treat all men equal as it always has.
Now the fact that you support the corporate government policies just shows that either you don't get what's going on or you agree that the government should legistate and push the economy to the favor of the corporate businesses. Thus helping the upper class. I mean do realize how far apart the money structure in this society is? For example if we were to model a room full of a hundred people with a total of $100 in the room as our country. We would have the top one guy with aobut $40 and the top 7 people with about $67. So between the other 93 people there is about $33 floating around. Less then the top one guy. That to you seems fair and you support legislation that adds to that? That is fucking cold.
You also need to take a look at property rights. I mean Zinn points this out in his Peoples history about how a coal company can be given land, huge tax breaks, and all this and yet it is still private property serving private intrests when it was basically given to them by the government. It still happens today. Also you have to realize there is already a fine line between public and private property and the laws basically bestow public land to people to manage privately while the public still owns the land though. The government or the public owns all the land basically. They can take it away if they so desire. Try not paying your taxes. So what needs to happen is a more balanced approach to property rights to even begin to tilt things in the way of justice. I mean it's pretty fundamental and I think any scholar that has done research on this will come to the same conclusions upon exaiming all the data.
Also realists are fucking stupid. Realists are always conforming there idea of reality to meet with everyone elses or the standard realist idea of the time. Idealists are the only peole that have ever really changed anything in the world for better or worse. Only someone who thinks the world can change will try to change it. Realists only do it if they think it's realistic and it very seldom is considered realistic.
Gotta go I'll continue this later. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 11:03:40 AM
you can't be an idealist and a realist. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 10:52:46 AM
I have read the Peoples' History of the US and I have read Marx; don't make the assumption that someone that disagrees with you must be uneducated or naive. My opinions may differ from yours, but that doesn't mean that I haven't done my homework. As much as there are obviously great books on these topics, I still prefer to come up with my own "belief system" that merely takes into consideration the opinions of others.
You're saying that poor people pay a greater percentage than rich people? Are you out of your MIND? If you fall under the poverty levels now, you basically get all of your tax money back, come return time. I know, I was there once. I only worked about 2-3 months out of the year and I got an enormous percentage back when I filed my tax returns. Can't remember the exact numbers now, but I did the math on it and I was basically paying about 3% of my check to taxes (both state and federal combined). Now that I'm making a lot more and working full time, I get destroyed with taxes (upwards of 30%). I always claim 0 to get the most taken out of my check possible, and my return is nominal at best.
Have more kids? Here's a tax break. Divorced? That must be rough, here's a tax break. Single parent? Oh, for shame...here's a tax break. Hardworking, middle class, white American male who keeps a steady job, maintains a good family life, goes to church and has 1.5 kids on their way to a university? Muahahaha, yer done.
Communism n. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The fact of the matter is, communism doesn't work...period. I love the concept, it's phenomenal on paper. If we could pull it off, the world would be infinitely better. It's idealistic, and I love that...I'm an idealist. But I'm also a realist. Communism doesn't work for one simple reason: human greed.
I do agree, that we are all capitalists. I never meant to imply that we're heading toward some kind of "red state", because it won't happen. I get pissed at comments like yours about the hard working guy who busts his ass vs. the guy who has a 4 year degree and has a cushy job. I wish we could have a society where the amount of effort you put in was directly reflected in your paycheck, but it just doesn't work that way. In this case, an education costs a LOT of money anymore, and they deserve the higher pay because they shelled out the cash/loan to become a more "important" employee. Work of the mind is just as relevant as work of the body. Then someone will say "well, they didn't pay for it...their daddy did" or whatever. Well, someone along the line earned that money. Take it back 200 years, when there were no cushy desk jobs. Someone had to bust their ass to provide opportunity to the next generation(s). Yes, I realize there are a lot of spoiled brats out there and that the system isn't always fair.
I may come off as a cold hearted right wing guy who doesn't give a shit about people, but I do. I am perfect willing to help people help themselves. Teach someone to fish. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 11:06:05 PM
rubylith I've seen stuff about this before but that was way detailed and thanks for posting it.
Tericee I'll have to check out that book. This guy Obeidi isn't the guy that was living in the US though was he? I remember reading something about the head nuclear scientist that Iraq had was thorugh this whole build up to the war living in the US. The thing that I want to make clear for everyone is that I realize that Iraq had a weapons program. However not weapons as far as anyone has been able to prove. That's where inspections and working through the normal proccess. One key thing though "What he turned over to U.S. intelligence in the summer of 2003 proved to be the entire remains of a program put on hold since the last Gulf War." I'll definitely put this book on hold though at the library. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:52:15 PM
amusing. |
| rubylith |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:40:51 PM
http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/french-911.htm |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:10:41 PM
of all the writers and speakers the lefties like to toss around, mr. zinn is probably the only one i have respect for. the man knows his shit. he's seen it, he's lived it. i'm always glad to hear what he has to say.
few things are more absurd than seeing someone on the right call someone on the left a communist or socialist. or someone claiming to be one of those. we're all capitalists. all of us. do you buy things in america? or have you sold something in america? capitalist. you are partaking in a capitalist system whether you like it or not. there are no socialists in america because we're all, perforce, unless you want to find a socialist country and go there, doing capitalist things. a violin player who doesn't like violin but really wants to play piano isn't a piano player. he's a violin player. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 2:05:03 PM
Sounds like a very interesting book... |
| tericee |
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 04:35:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
The other thing is that all this talk about disarming Saddam I still have heard nothing about anything being found and have heard no proof that they had these WMD's and were building nukes.
I found this book on Amazon.com. It sounds like a good one to read if you want an insider's account of Iraq's nuclear goals:
From the Inside Flap: No one knows more about Iraq’s nuclear weapons program than Mahdi Obeidi, the man who headed its successful uranium enrichment effort. In the immediate, chaotic aftermath of the 2003 war in Iraq, Obeidi contacted the arms inspectors he had been forced to lie to for so many years, and voluntarily turned over the key plans and parts to U.S. intelligence. Among the revelations reported by the international media at the time: In the early 1990s, under orders to hide the core of the program from UN weapons inspectors, Obeidi had buried in his backyard garden the critical elements necessary to build uranium-enriching gas centrifuges. What he turned over to U.S. intelligence in the summer of 2003 proved to be the entire remains of a program put on hold since the last Gulf War. Now, at last, Obeidi tells all, taking us inside Saddam’s regime and revealing the truth about its quest for nuclear weapons. He captures in nail-biting detail what life was like directly under Saddam’s watchful eye–the intimidation, the paranoia, the impossible deadlines...
Read more at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0471679658/reviews/102-1257814-6591303#04716796585010 |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 9:54:56 PM
Ok first of all James the unemployment rates have a lot to do with a hit that the economy took after 9-11. Now these tax cuts you said went in to place before Clinton I would like to know a little bit more aobut them. As I recall Bush I raised taxes after the promise not to of course. I however don't profess some huge knowledge about the petty political BS that the media concentrates on like that. Then please elaborate on how Clinton caused the unemployment rate we have now or whatever else. Then anytime someone wants to talk to me about how great the economy was under Clinton I always realize how little they know about economics. I'm no expert, but I at least have common sense.
Back in the latest boom what you saw was profits going through the roof and that's basically what people where using as there measure of the economy. However how can you say an economy is booming when the median (not average) wage continues a steady decline. How can you call the economy booming when the seperation of the Rich and Poor increases. So when you talk about the economy taking a huge turn for the better you can apply the same things to this so called boom or increase. The median wage is lower now then it was in 1979. That's how good our economy is doing.
Now before I go off on your free market BS doctrines I'd like to point out one little thing. The US has no free market. It's all controlled! If you don't already know that you have some research to do. Ever hear of a subsidy. IBM and thus Bill Gates would not be shit if it weren't for government paying for all the R&D that went into developing these computers and the high tech field in general. Then they hand the developments over to corporations to make profits. So socialism is cool for big business but fuck the poor because those complaing bastards need to stay in there place because they just don't work hard for their money. Everyone deserves a level playing filed man. Sure it's never going to be perfect but still the people I know that work hardest are poor. The well off people I know I have easy jobs. They were just able to go to school and had slightly higher intelects so they obviously deserve a better life? I mean it's about opportunity as much as work if not more. The oppurtinuty you speak of is great but not everyone has it sorry to burst your bubble but it's not realistic. I mean in capitalist society there has to be a poor and rich for it to work at all and anyone who has studied the system especially the history of capitalism would know that.
Then you want to go into communism. First I have to ask if you have ever read the communist manifesto or anything in depth by Marx? If you haven't then quit talking about communism. You already are indoctrinated to think that communism is the plague of the earth. Like most americans have. Your history teacher lied to you though. I mean there has never been a communist system on this earth ever! Why you think that it's cool for the government to give money to big business so that they can make a killing profit wise off of America is just beyond me. That's the way it works. I mean explain to me how you are ok with the government giving money to people who are already rich and subsidizing their business but you can't stand to be forced to give money to people who need it? It just blows my fucking mind. Communism basically is a system that would stop anyone from being able to put themselves over someone else by capital gaines and stops exploitation of people. However there just hasn't been communism set up on this earth yet.
Flat tax is a damn good idea. Because the Rich would actually have to start paying there share. Ya I know rich pay more than anyone else capital wise but not on the percentage. Rich people pay less percentage wise then the average joe. It would be great if they could pay a flat percentage of what they earned.
Now do yourself a favor and read some Zinn. The Peoples History of the US and The Zinn Reader are good places to start. Also War and Terror is a good one. Then just start reading some Chomsky specifically profit over people, Mis-Education, The indespensible Chomsky, Manufacturing Consent, and Hegemony or Surrvival. You won't be able to bust out of the prison of thought you're in till you see the prison man. I'm not trying to be a dick either I'm just saying you need to study some stuff out. I've done pretty extensive reading and research into political theory and the politacal science field and would welcome anything you have to offer for reading suggestions. I just think your view is pretty limited. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 9:38:52 PM
presidents have less to do with the economy that everyone thinks they do. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 7:29:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i don't know about you, but i love wal-mart. whoever they're employing and what they're doing to local business is not my concern. my money either goes one place or the other. except less of my money usually goes to wal mart because it's cheaper. and everything's all right there. it's not like mom and pop places are helpless anyway. i don't do most of my grocery shopping at wal mart because they don't carry a lot of things i like. they have all the shitty beef jerky, for example. and the deli at the other place, privately owned, that i go to, is way better. way.
I don't particularly care for Walmart, but I don't have a problem with it. Big business runs this country. Yes, the rich get richer, but so what? If they're providing us with a service we need at a very low/efficient cost, by all means! Sorry mom & pop, it's $5 cheaper at Walmart. Case closed. If you want to support the mom & pop stuff, go for it.
As far as trickle down economics being "way off", look at the unemployment rate in this country. It isn't because of Bush. It's because of Clinton. Everyone LOVES Clinton because the economy was great during his presidency. He walks into office and 3 months later the economy's in full swing. Do people honestly think that he made such stunning changes to economic policy in the 2.5 months he was in office that the entire economy turned around? No. We were reaping the rewards of the previous tax cuts that took four years to get into place. The same thing will happen if Kerry gets elected.
The economy is a year or so away from taking a huge turn for the better...because of the support for big business. All the jealous poor people hate big business because they see that one guy at the top (Bill Gates for example) and think they somehow "deserve" a piece of the pie. Screw you. When you invent/market an operating system that has such market penetration that you basically can't use anything else, come talk to me. This is America, the land of opportunity.
As much as some staunch Republicans piss me off, the hardcore Democrats make me sick. This may sound alarmist, but so be it...I think they're one step away from Communism. Now before you go ripping me apart and calling me Joe McCarthy, take a look at far left wing democratic policy and the "ideals" of Communism. They're incredibly similar. Tax the people that have more money than average and give it to those who don't have "enough" (and they decide what's enough). So, pretty soon you have a flattening of the economic system to a point where everyone's equal. How they can penalize someone for making a really nice living for themselves and essentially say "you HAVE to give back" is beyond me.
Inheritance tax is bullshit, income level based taxing is bullshit, extra taxes levied on big business are bullshit, equal opportunity is bullshit, basically everything is bullshit. The government feels that it's fair to take an ENORMOUS chunk of the money my parents leave me because my father made a decent living and busted his ass for years and years. That's stellar. Wonder where that's going.
As much as the guy would have been about the worst President ever, I can't help but think back to Forbes' flat tax. How the hell can you argue that? Everyone's taxed the exact same amount for every dollar they earn. If you get a paycheck for $100 every two weeks, you get a little bit taken out. If you get a paycheck for $100,000,000 a week, you get a lot taken out. It's all proportional, and those who make more, pay more...but it's not disproportional. I have yet to hear an argument that can even remotely challenge the flat tax that isn't some BS whining about big business and how Bill Gates has it better than them. Your damn right he has it better than you, and for good reason.
/rant
|
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 4:42:17 PM
i don't see why anyone cares about mom and pop places being pushed out by big business. you're nothing more than potential profits to both. why should you care about a mom and pop place when all they're ultimately interested from you is money?
i don't know about you, but i love wal-mart. whoever they're employing and what they're doing to local business is not my concern. my money either goes one place or the other. except less of my money usually goes to wal mart because it's cheaper. and everything's all right there. it's not like mom and pop places are helpless anyway. i don't do most of my grocery shopping at wal mart because they don't carry a lot of things i like. they have all the shitty beef jerky, for example. and the deli at the other place, privately owned, that i go to, is way better. way. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 4:29:42 PM
James I feel ya on the taxes but still you shouldn't be mad that you have to pay your taxes you should just be pissed at what the government does with them. How they control the economy and all that. I mean it sucks that they'll give corporate handouts left and right and continue to keep the high tech business in full swing by paying for their research for things that are nice, but insignificant with all the problems going on. If you consider that with all the money spent on healthcare in the government they can't make it so that half of the people in this country have no healthcare. We pay for so much stuf that we don't get like decent schools and healthcare and look at our military budget and aid to countries and our foreign policy. It's got us spread out across the world in everyone's government (it's been this way before Bush too) in places we shouldn't be. We pay for all of that.
The fundamental role of the government is to protect people. In our government it's suppposed to protect everyone. It would be great to not have to pay the government money for welfare and all that other stuff and if people would just take care of each other unregulated. The problem is that people don't so with government we are all consenting to work together. Government isn't in and of itself a bad thing. It can be a good thing if it involves people working together for the good of each other and playing their roles. The problem is that our government has slipped a long ways from that. The fact is that people that are just middle class or the rich don't go giving their money to poor or try to help them for the most part.
You don't have to pay either but you'll go to jail. Same with me. I could not pay taxes because I don't want to support war but I'll just end up in jail. So you consent even if it's by force. You just have to change things. Considering what our government has been doing over the last hundred years making a few people rich it is the governments job to protect people whether it's by sharing the wealth or giving someone somewhere to live.
I don't think I have time to tell you how far off you are on economics though. One thing money trickles up not down. The guy at the top is making the most profit and thus he begins to collect more and more money. Look at the widening gap between rich and poor. That's fundamental. Having a few really rich corporations or big business in no way does a good job of spreading wealth. You're just way off. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 4:20:50 PM
the fact that anyone gets "stuck with kids" at all is absurd. it totally blows my mind. if you can't afford to have a child, don't fucking have a child. there's nothing more to it than that. the best way to not have a kid is not have sex. yes, that's possible. you can do that. all it takes is some self-control. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 3:17:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
because every system can be exploited.
Good point. I know that it's not possible to have a perfect system, it's just frustrating (i.e. the situation you mentioned). Sometimes I get my paycheck and just start blankly at the amount taken out in tax and wonder how much of that is wasted.
Fundamentally, I'm a republican. I'm not your typical right wing all the way kinda guy. I just tend to be a little more on the conservative side. For a few pretty simple reasons.
1.) Less government. I believe a government should exist to do things that people cannot do individually. Build roads, run the military, establish/enforce laws, keep the peace, etc. Nothing more. I favor spending on defense, without it we're sitting ducks. This does not translate to a blanket support of war (including the current one).
2.) I think taxes are way too high and that people are constantly being forced to support others, indirectly, through taxes. Keyword: forced. I don't believe that someone should *have* to give a part of their paycheck (no matter how miniscule) to someone else. That should be a matter of choice. I consider myself a nice guy and I'll help my neighbor in any way that I can, but I don't believe that I should be forced to. When 1/4 of my paycheck is out the door in federal taxes alone, you can rest assured that the governmental necessities were covered a long time ago.
3.) The government can't legislate morality. It simply doesn't work. You can't make someone obey the rules, you can't make them "nice". You have to set standards, and punish accordingly. I fully support the death penalty (obviously in extreme cases only), but I'd have no problem flipping the switch on a serial rapist or a child molester.
4.) I do think that the concept of trickle down economics works in the long run, I just think that we've never had a long enough run for it to work. It's always democrat/republican/democrat/republican going in every 4-8 years and undoing everything the other one did. I do support big business as it obvious gives the consumer good prices and creates thousands of jobs. As much as it sucks for the mom & pop places, in the long run for urban/suburban areas, it's helping.
Anyway, all this partisan crap gives me a headache. Back to the lecture at hand. Still can't vote. Bush isn't nearly strong enough and Kerry would be a disaster. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 12:58:22 PM
Ya it sucks when people just sit around on there ass and do nothing and get checks and it does happen. The problem is is that I know people in this situation and I don't give a shit about the parents but the kids are who I'm concerned about. The idea is that the kids will be able to have some opportunities to get out of that situation when they come of age. Welfare is a good program overall though. It helps a lot of people. Considering more than one of my friends basically wouldn't have been able to eat growing up without assistance tells me it's helping. Now it's got it's flaws and all and it's not really attacking the root of the problem (poverty), but that won't happen until things fundementally change considering there have been poor people since our history can remember. It's usually the parents that piss me off no matter if they are nice people. What business do they have having all these kids with no money? Ya sure some get stuck with 4 but after that come on.
Oh and James I think were clear now on the prayer thing. We agree on what you said in that last post. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 11:43:44 AM
i don't have a specific problem with wellfare. obviously some people are going to just sit back and not even bother looking for work. that's something i expect, because every system can be exploited. i'd be a little taken back if no one did. you obviously can't just stop welfare because of a couple jerks.
i worked at a grocery store, and a lot of times i'd get a woman with wic checks. i'm fine with that, too. the only time i get a little miffed is when a single mom comes through, with like 8 checks and as many kids. one will be like 12, the other a couple years younger and so on. and then there's usually an infant or a toddler, too. the kids are usually acting like monsters, too. i understand if the father dies or leaves the family, but if you can't afford 1 kid, why have 4 more? just stop having kids. not having kids is real easy. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 09:01:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
Ok ya the thing with prayer is it should have nothing to do with school. If people want to pray or start a prayer group that's fine with me but it shouldn't be an in class thing or anything like that.
I don't know if I said this, and if I didn't, I am remiss...but I don't believe a teacher should lead a prayer in class at all. I completely agree with you there. I'm just saying if a teacher/group of students want to have a collective prayer during a break at school or after hours, without using additional school resources, I don't see any problem with it whatsoever.
I'm not an overly religious guy myself, catholic school since I was in Kindergarten, but never catholic. I wouldn't participate in prayer groups, I believe that prayer/religion is a deeply personal thing and have never been a large fan of organized religion. Regardless, I support other peoples' right to express their beliefs anyway they want, so long as it doesn't affect others.
And you're right Dan, I'm sick of the whining. If we catered to every group that felt they were discriminated against, we'd all be pretty screwed. I realize discrimination isn't something that directly affects me very often, being a white American male, and that there are very obvious times when discrimination is a blatently bad thing that should be handled accordingly. I'm just sick of people looking for every excuse in the book to sue someone or whine about how the white man is holding them down.
Take welfare for example. What a joke. Yes, I realize there are people out there that can't get jobs and are legitimately trying. Good for them, and I have no problem assisting them. Then there's the people with 14 kids, no motivation to get a job and I have to pay their tax burden. Sorry, not a fan. The concept of workfare is one I support. Like I said, I have absolutely no problem footing the bill for someone who's legitimately trying to get work. It's the ones that sit on their couches all day and collect checks while I'm working that piss me off.
I have a lot of friends that come from "wealthy" backgrounds. For the most part they're good guys. But when I hear that one of them is collecting unemployment checks because he was laid off (when he should have been fired) and driving his BMW around, I have a SERIOUS problem with that. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 8:49:13 PM
Ok ya the thing with prayer is it should have nothing to do with school. If people want to pray or start a prayer group that's fine with me but it shouldn't be an in class thing or anything like that. It's just a matter of that they don't teach it in school and all. What people do on there own time or by them self is fine. Or people want to get together in a group ok. Just it can't have anything to do with the school organization.
As for morals and culture... Everyone no matter what is brought up into a culture that teaches you a right way to live. While people may differ about certain things that are right and wrong like abortion or whatever the fundamental things are usually pretty damn close inside the culture. Like there are very few who believe murder or theft is fine. It's just basic ethics that follow the golden rule. It's a cultural thing and not a religious thing. Religous morals go beyond everyone's basic right way to live ideas by stating that certain border line things like abortion or whatever is wrong. That's a belief from religion not ethics for most people.
As for the discrimination stuff the problem is the discrimination not the complaining. Ya sure there's a lot of people out for money and are a little ridiculous but the problem with civil rights wasn't people whining even though most of the country wished those "coloreds would stay in their place and quit causing so much toruble." I just am sick of people saying that they should be able to do this or that because other people shouldn't be offended by it. Like if a teacher were to lead a prayer in school everyone else should chill out and if they don't want to participate that's fine. That's ridiculous. I am not religious and I don't want to hear that shit in school because it has nothing to do with it just like most people wouldn't want to hear someone worshiping satan. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 6:12:21 PM
what i think it ultimately comes down to, what cppjames is driving at is simply this: just quit crying. the only thing i don't agree with it allowing a teacher lead prayer. not because it's discriminatory, but just because it's a waste of fucking time. the teacher is there to teach the kids, and chances are they can barely do that anyway. keep it out of the classroom. that's learning time.
but let's suppose it's allowed. non-mandatory. first of all, maybe the teacher doesn't want to and it doesn't get done. but if it is, as long as the kid knows what he or she believes, or doesn't as the case may be, what the hell does it matter? he'll probably just finish some homework he should have done last night. if you know what you believe, that's all that matters. and if you don't, then that's a problem you need to work out. stop shrieking every time someone mentions god in a public place. |
| rubylith |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 10:43:13 AM
http://infowars.com/print/news/bushwired.htm |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/18/2004 : 09:07:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lindalu
CPPJames- I had to chuckle (just a little)....At the end of DMB at the vote for change concert,they weren't "booing", they were chanting "Bruuuuce". Sorry, had to lighten things up a little.
You could hear subtle boos when he came on stage for sure. I realize the Bruce thing but even during the time between songs I could hear some people moaning. Oh well.
Most people would agree that humans aren't born with morals. Hence we have Mother Theresa and Charles Manson. People are a product of their environment. Why is murder wrong? Do you honestly believe that a child, born and left to its own devices until it reaches a mature age, would have the same "moral" beliefs as someone who was raised in a Christian or Buddhist household? Certainly not. I, for one, don't believe that a human being knows or feels that murder is wrong unless they are cultured to feel that way. Guilt is not instinctual. While morality and religion are certainly not one and the same, they're very much related...and to suppress the expression of religious beliefs is absurd.
Allowing people to express their religious beliefs in any context should be acceptable. To say that optional prayer in schools should be banned is just bizarre. How is it harming anyone? If you're a buddhist and all they have is a Christian prayer group, then start a Buddhist one. As long as you're not "discriminating" (God that word symbolizes almost everything I hate about this country), what's the problem?
This whole "oh my God I'm being discriminated against"/frivolous lawsuit crap is half of what's wrong with this country. Next thing you know people will sue when turned down for a job because they're discriminating against the less intelligent. Alright, enough ranting...back to work. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 7:49:21 PM
nukes are the only thing that concern me a little. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/16/2004 : 1:07:12 PM
Look Bush isn't doing it all but him and his buddies policies are working towards the end of the world. I'm also not near as worried about the greenhouse effect as I am the worlds shrinking supply of drinking water. The oil production throughout the world has peaked as well. So how much longer is oil going to be readily available to those who need it? We won't run out any time soon but it's not going to be able to continue to fuel our economy and support the population. Just take a look at the food industry alone and how it will be effected. The world has some serious issues to face and here you have some jackass and his buddies in powerful position working towards a state of perpetual war and keeping america addicted to petro-chemicals. The continued development of nukes and the militirization of space should really open peoples eyes.
The earth will surrvive unless we blow it up with nukes but humans have no chance unless we change the way we've lived for the past 10,000 years. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:34:34 PM
if you really think man has that much effect on the earth. i think the earth is stronger than you give it credit for, and that we're weaking than we give us credit for.
the earth is a self-correcting system. if we were to move, for example, from the current greenhouse effect that's responsible for life here at all, to a runaway greenhouse effect, the earth will correct itself over time. it's possible the ice caps, melted by the warmer temperatures created by releasing co2 from fossile fuel into the atmosphere, will result in increased surface area and levels of the oceans, with reduced salinity. evaporation rates increase with sruface area and increased temperature, resulting in more clouds, who's high albedo reflects much sunlight. precipitation at the poles falls as snow, and the ocean, with the reduced salinity, freezes at higher temperatures anyway. that's not really a complete picture, but you get the idea. ultimately the earth rights itself. we may die, but the earth will be just fine. |
| Lindalu |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 10:33:09 PM
CPPJames- I had to chuckle (just a little)....At the end of DMB at the vote for change concert,they weren't "booing", they were chanting "Bruuuuce". Sorry, had to lighten things up a little. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 9:46:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i'm always a little dubious when i hear these alarmist type things. i think we'll be just fine for quite some time. and if we won't, then there's not going to be anything that will mourn the loss.
Look this isn't a scare tactic or just some alarming piece of BS. How long is man going to be able to continue to live like this. We are seriously fucking up the earth and I think that if we continue in this way with our effects on the enviroment increasing exponentially over time due to population growth that we will make earth uninhabitable. As to when this would happen I think it's a good idea to see how much more screwed things are now than a hundred years ago and then compare that to the last hundred years etc. Things are getting worse faster. So I don't think it's unreasonable to put give a prognosis that man will be around for only another 250 years max. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 9:38:27 PM
Ya ok well for some one like me who is the anti-christ I think relgion should be kept as far away from state as possible. It has nothing to do with it. Our nation under god doesn't belong in the pledge. We are not a relgious nation. Prayer in school. Really who is going to know if you bow your head and start praying unless you are praying out loud. If someone wants to pray that's there thing and they should go for it. But I think it better be a private thing and no optional teacher led BS. They have no part in teaching a relgion unless they are teaching a comparitive religion class. It's discrimination. If they pray one way they beter damn well pray every way and bring in there carpets to pray to allah and do some buddhist stuff and pray to Baal as well and don't forget the satan worship. Religion has not part in government and visa versa. Why you think that the constitution when it says seperation of church and state really means government stay out of relgion but religion is fine in government is beyond me.
However you realize that the whole murder thing would never happen. Look there is an idea that man has had for a while. Don't even try to tell me jesus invented it. It's the golden rule and it's what ethics is based from is that whole hypocritical thing. It will never happen. People didn't just get morals from religion. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 7:53:55 PM
Guess I don't see the disagreement, heh. I agree with what you said. I wouldn't mind a teacher leading an optional prayer group or something along those lines. If something is optional, what's the question? No one's forcing you to do anything. It doesn't harm you. I can understand not using the school for organized religious activities in off hours, or if the school catered to certain religions (or a religion at all).
If it harms you in no way shape or form (including miniscule amounts of tax dollars), what the hell is the point in bitching about it? |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 6:35:28 PM
james, once again i find myself almost, but not quite, agreeing with you.
the "under god" thing. people got so pissed about it. so pissed. buy let's step back a second. yes, i guess you can call that a violation. but it still doesn't matter. don't like it? don't say it. it couldn't be less simple. you don't even have to say the pledge, really. so why get pissed about something in a statement you don't have to say? it doesn't matter. it's been around for 40 years. it didn't matter then. it doesn't now.
prayer in schools is something else that isn't important. if you want to say some prayers at one point during the day, say some fucking prayers. but keep it individual. don't have the teacher lead or anything, but if you think you need to say a prayer at one point, no one should stop you. |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 2:08:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
haha. christ! and you thought bush was destroying the seperation of church and state. at least no one will bother assassinating him. we already know you can't kill the son of a bitch.
More random tangents...
As far as separation of Church and State goes, it was designed to keep the State out of the Church, not the Church out of the State (i.e. preventing a "national" religion, preventing infringing on someone's relgious liberties, etc.). Any documents referring to the concept from that era will confirm that. I think it's one of the most misused political arguments ever.
This whole not allowing prayer in schools is bullshit. Granted, I certain don't feel that children should be obligated to pray. Allowing it in no way infringes on the meaning behind the separation of Church and State.
As far as the whole "one nation under God", the bibles in courtrooms, the inscriptions at the Supreme Court, etc., that gets a little sketchier...but these people that take cases all the way to the supreme court because they don't like their kid having to say "under God" is insanity. It's amazing that people have nothing better to do with their time.
Next thing you know someone will use separation of Church and State as some twisted defense in a murder case. They'll claim that murder is related to the 10 commandments and it therefore religious, blah blah blah.
America's been proving Darwin's natural selection theory wrong for the past 100 years. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 1:18:36 PM
haha. christ! and you thought bush was destroying the seperation of church and state. at least no one will bother assassinating him. we already know you can't kill the son of a bitch. |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 1:07:14 PM
http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4041
pretty funny. somehow seems to have dan's writing style...if that is his real message board name. |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:57:04 PM
doesn't jesus usually get about 3000 votes a year? there's your trustworthy leader dan. and you know where he stands on things. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:53:49 PM
that sounds about right, except for the voting part. people have explained protesting before, but i still don't get it. if you want change, that's the reason you're protesting, but you know protesting doesn't change anything. so. . .what's the deal there? i've heard a lot of people say it's to raise awareness about how they feel. we know. we don't care. the cutesy slogans and those adorable little signs, i'd say they only grate my nerves a little. but if i'm driving somewhere and your nonsense gets in my way, that's unacceptable. do your thing if it means that much to you, but don't drag me into it. leave everyone alone. if we wanted to, we'd be there with you.
take it to the voting booths. yeah, we did that last time, as i recall. fat lot of good that did. let's look at our options. we have the returning champ, bush. oh. he's a real treat, isn't he? we know he sucks. then we have kerry, and i don't trust this fucker at all. how could you? listen to him real carefully when he talks in the debates. i have no idea where he stands on anything. nothing he says means anything. and then you have third party candidates, which is like not voting except you have to go to the booths to get your not voting done. give me candidate worth my vote, and i'll vote for him. i wouldn't buy a substandard product, and i won't vote for a substandard leader. |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:53:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
[quote][i]
Otherwise get your irritating noise and cheesy slogans out of my way.
pick-a-pack-of-fire-crack-ers sis boom bah. bugs bunny, bugs bunny, rah rah rah! |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 11:18:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by GuitarGuy305
Ladies and gentlemen: Dave Matthews.
LOL, as unfortunate as that is, you're exactly right. I didn't go to the vote for change tour, because the name says it all. It'd be one thing if there was a great candidate that I fully supported and they were touring based on support for someone...but essentially it was an anti-Bush bash.
I watched the final show online and you could hear the boos when DMB left stage, which I assume are from Bush supporters. In an effort to show my non-extreme conservative side, I think that's stupid. You're at basically a glorified Kerry rally with music, either suck it up or don't go.
I'm getting sick of protesters. If you're that passionate, take it to a voting booth or to a court of law. Otherwise get your irritating noise and cheesy slogans out of my way. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/15/2004 : 12:20:10 AM
Man will become extinct. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 10:30:09 PM
i'm always a little dubious when i hear these alarmist type things. i think we'll be just fine for quite some time. and if we won't, then there's not going to be anything that will mourn the loss. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 9:51:28 PM
Check out the project for a new american century and that's what you'll say that is. It's a little extreme. Man is going to be extinct if we don't change the way we live. It's just a matter of when. All I'm saying is that Bush is taking us there faster then I think Kerry would. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 4:23:37 PM
zach, i tell you what. i think that's a little extreme. |
| GuitarGuy305 |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 2:15:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CPPJames
I am SO sick of people that will vote for Kerry because they dislike Bush.
Ladies and gentlemen: Dave Matthews.
Adam |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 1:40:14 PM
Ok I'm going to say this one more time. The facsists have to be taken out of power. Look Bush and the people on his team are really dangerous. They have implemented a new step in foreign policy that Cheney has really bluntly talked aobut in the debates. The reserve the right to pursue an aggressive foreign policy and pre-emptively strike other countries. It's not only immoral but illeagal. It's also sickening to see that people call the president the leader of the world.
The bush adminstration has been taking giant steps towards a perpetual war state in the world. By attacking Iraq and declaring a war on terror they are doing the same thing as people did during the cold war by putting fear into people to control them so they can have consent to impose their will on the world. Not only does this feed the mitlitary industrial complex that makes all their friends rich it gaurantees US control over the riches and resources of the world. The fact that they are resuming the star wars program and moving to militirize space should be alarming to everyone because they are creating an emergency by planning for a war. They also have continued to try to improve the nukes we have.
They also have implemented the unarmed combatant rules so that they can hold literally anyone including civilians without charges. Also you can fire upon unarmed combatants. They are fighting against human rights and against international law that binds them. Look they also have voted against the world court again and again realizing that our generals and the US in general would now have to be held responsible for it's war crimes. The Bush adminstration plain and simple is leading us into a state of perpetual war and a state in which the US dominates the world even more so then now. It's a path to destruction. He also has driven this country into a huge debt and I don't really care what he has to say about Kerry's record on voting or whatever else because he really fucked up this countries finances while making his friends rich. I should say that it's congress' fault too. Since they are really the ones in charge.
Now you know I don't support Kerry. I also know that it's not all that important if I vote since I think Kerry has a lock on Oregon. What this comes down to is that for things to take a change for the better in the US it's going to take a change in the culture of the US. The reason we have two candidates that are complete asses running is because people put them in there by voting for them in primaries and Bush won his in 2000. So the reason these candidates are so shitty is because the american system is so shitty and that these are the best people the system could produce. So what everyone needs to do is to try to have an influence on the people around them and educate yourselves as much as possible so that people will break away from the pop culture here in the US and begin to think for themselves. Escape the propaganda and help others to see some of the light of what a future the earth could have.
Contining on at this rate where we continue the addiction to petro chemicals that fuel our society is bringing us closer to doomsday. You have to realize that once these resources become so scarce that we can no longer fuel our agriculture and foods services that are based from petro chemicals there is going to be some real problems. If we also continue to throw poisions into the earth like it's a bottemless pit and destroy nature the earth will no longer be able to support human life. This huge population the earth has built up will be wiped out. Not only in a couple hundred years could we have wiped out all the other species living in the wild and the few cultures that still live in the bounds of nature but we could ensure human extinction.
Bush is propelling us towards this faster than I think Kerry will. That's the only thing Kerry has done to deserve my vote. If things are to change it will change from the ground up not by electing in someone who is going to take care of everything. If you are comfortable with the steps the Bush adminstration has taken in foreign policy and also domestic policy you need to do some more research or have your head examend. You just have to ask yourself where the human race will be in 100 years if Bush or others like him continue to make steps to ensure war throughout the world. Examine his policies and you'll see that that's what they are creating is a US dominated world by fueling our industry through war just like the Romans did and you'll see the same results. Another dark age. Everyone should read Dark Age Ahead by Jane Jacobs. It's a strong case to show that we are headed in this direction. Thus ends my rant... |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 1:38:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LindaluAll I can say to them is to do me and yourself a favor and do the research or don't vote!
exactly. i absolutely hated those commercials that said to go out and vote. i mean, if you don't know shit about either candidate, then it's simply a popularity contest and not about who's more qualified. i'm disgusted by people who say "i'm a republican", or "i'm a democrat". does either side always have the better candidate? how about "fuck you guys, i think for myself."
for anyone who's done the research and says "a, b, and c are why i'm voting kerry/bush", all i can say is that you've made the right decision. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 12:49:17 PM
If Kerry is elected, I highly doubt he could do anything substantial to prevent the outsourcing of jobs.
My cousin worked for Earthlink, and in order for him to keep his job, he would have had to move out to Atlanta. He decided not to, so he lost his job. Now, that side of my family constantly bitches about how his job was outsourced to India.
That's not really an argument for or against outsourcing, it's just a funny story about my stupid family. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 11:15:33 AM
is being gay a choice or are you born that way? i'm no scientist or psycologist, but i do know the the answer: it doesn't matter in the least. there is seriously nothing less important than who someone is having sex with. who cares? why is it being discussed? it's not hurting anyone. leave it alone.
i don't know that they'll do the draft. for one thing, the army doesn't want it. and secondly, and we've talked about this before, they'll meet massive resistance if they do. and hopefully it won't be one of those slogan chanting, sign waving resistances. unless the signs double as a battle axe. if your son really doesn't want to go to war, he'll go to jail, or canada, or both. yeah, he'll be marked as a draft dodger, but he'll sure as hell be alive. unless he gets shivved in jail.
cppjames, i'm with you. voting is a lose lose situation. one my professors told me that if i don't vote, i deserve what i get. as if voting is going to put a capable man in office. here are our options: vote in bush, who undeniably sucks. vote in kerry, a man who we have no idea where he stands on anything. or waste your vote on a third party that will never win. yeah. no thanks. i'll save the gas and stay here. |
| Lindalu |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 09:27:19 AM
We can let the immigrants in every day to work for 5.15/hour as long as no Americans want those jobs.We can also tell all of those poverty-level children, whose tummies are growling because their single mommies only bring home about 150$/week, that if you go to school, you can afford breakfast in about 15 years (because edumacation is the answer to job loss). Oh- and we'll raise the standards and make the tests harder while we're at it. Oh- and to all of those employees who've been laid off due to outsourcing, your bachelor's and master's degrees that you attained to get those jobs (Kodak workers as a huge example) mean nothing and you should really go back to school. Don't worry, you can put food on your table and gas in your car in another 4 years.W is also going to introduce and guest lecture at your geography classes- he's going to explain to you how Iraq is in Afghanistan(what the hell-they all look the same, don't they?) My favorite line from the first debate-"It's hard work loving this woman, knowing I put her husband in harm's way....and after we prayed and teared up and laughed...." (Bush's compassion towards a soldier's widow).Oh- and W's response to whether or not being gay was a choice-"I don't know...I just don't know". What do you mean you don't know?! All of those scientists, psychologists and sociologists who have time and time again proven that it's a genetic pre-disposition are just blowing smoke? Oh and you've increased the veterans benefits? How many VA hospitals were shut down this year?
My son is 16 years old and if W wins, he'll turn 18 during W's next reign and I don't believe him when he says there will be no draft.This freaks me out like you can't believe!If I sound passionate about politics, it's because I have become that way in the last few years because now it's personal.I work with a couple of idiots that spew comments like "we should just bomb everyone in Iraq to get back at them for bombing the WTC (really! That's almost a word-for-word quote)". All I can say to them is to do me and yourself a favor and do the research or don't vote!I have so much more to say, but I'm getting a little uneasy about how all of this will be recieved, so I'll stop-for now.
Let a gynecologist practice his love on you today!!!! |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 10/14/2004 : 08:51:19 AM
I'm looking for any possible reason to like Kerry more (or some alternative) and I simply can't. While I'm generally more on the conservative side, I'm not a huge Bush supporter by any means. Despite the criticisms (while some are valid), I think Bush has held his own in the debates. Kerry, on the other hand has given me absolutely no reason to vote for him. Somehow I don't think I'll be voting based on the fact that someone's more eloquent, or simply because I dislike the current President.
I am SO sick of people that will vote for Kerry because they dislike Bush. 90% of the people I meet instantly say they'll be voting for Kerry, but when I ask them why, 80% of those people immediately start with a Bush criticism. Half of them can't even name the way Kerry stands on any issue (hell, I wonder if Kerry can sometimes). I just want to slap them and say "If you don't like one candidate, find one you like, not just 'something different'". I, for one, think Kerry would be a terrible President.
Still not voting...for lack of a decent candidate. |
| therippa |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 10:25:16 PM
"She speaks english a whole lot better than I do."
idiot. |
| Miss Sorrel |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 9:42:07 PM
i am going to have to vote Kerry if Bush doesn't wipe the spiddle off the coner of his mouth |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 5:26:50 PM
very true. that's pretty much what brian williams said after the debate.
as for not being coherant, i was reading a book of bushisms yesterday at barnes&noble that was similar to dubyaspeak.com, minus the comments. sometimes even the press don't know what he's saying, as they are forced to ask the question in more simple terms. i sometimes feel sorry for the guy when i hear him speak, but then i remember what a pompous, arrogant, war-mongering, religious zealot, sexist, crack-head, election fixing, slimy corporate-centered screw-up of a president he is.
|
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 3:49:38 PM
well it's a dangerous question. you can't sit there and openly admit your failures, because that leaves you open to attack from the other side. besides which, that's honesty, and america isn't ready for that yet. at the same time you can't say "i've made no mistakes. not even one. ever." actually, i'd rather like to hear that.
besides, when is anything bush says ever coherent? why would this question be any different, if not more muddled and confusing? |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/13/2004 : 1:01:18 PM
did anyone else find bush's responses to the questions about the environment and the "name 3 mistakes you've made since you've been president" questions amusing?
for the first one, his response was incoherant rambling of complete question evading bullshit, including his remarks about the hydrogen fueled car (which he eludes to as if he invented the fucking thing). for the second one, the "if history faults me, then i'll take the blame" (but otherwise claim no faults) shows once again how truely arrogant he is. needless to say, i was once again wowed by his incompetence. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 5:47:01 PM
"thank god we've got heroes like you/who bravely stride forward when duty calls/just slow enough that people can still whisper in your ear/and if compassion means biting your lip/and posing for the cameras/then bravo! well done/skull and bones"
|
| rubylith |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 4:13:17 PM
skull and bones...no matter who we vote for we are voting for less freedom.
its the military industrial complex |
| pants_happy |
Posted - 10/11/2004 : 2:46:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
Well you know, everyday after I shower with Bush Rhetoric Shampoo, I sit down and have a nice bowl of Bush Rhetoric Shampoo. That's why I'm ALWAYS spouting it out.
i could make a case for a strawman argument here, but i'll choose not to...
quote:
Please, I ask the question because I don't believe he has provided a good reason. It was a big fuck up on his part to vote for the war. Just because I happen to ask a question that is used by the Bush team, doesn't make it an invalid qustion.
i never said that using a question posed by the bush administration = an invalid question.
i said:
"if you are really looking for answers, you would've gotten most, if not all of them by watching the debates, because he's stated his reasons for his votes in context, not singularly and out of order like the bush administration makes them out to look like. do some research on your own, even if it is just for the sake of argument.
if you didn't see the debates, or can't remember what was said, then try looking for a transcript of it on the internet (perhaps at pbs, since jim lehrer was the moderator).
if you can't get past said answers simply because you don't believe him, then fine, that's as good a reason as any. but simply using answered bush rhetoric as an attack and not even considering a different perspective is ignorant."
the question has already been asked-and-answered, and it's up to you (the voter) to decide whether you believe him or not. to answer your question about his reasons, i believe kerry was initially for the war because he believed that saddam was a threat, but later against it because of the way bush carried it out (not going to war as a last resort, going to war without an exit strategy, ect.)
quote:
That's like saying no one can question Bush's service record, which is obviously shitty, because John Kerry's team is always talking about it.
no, it's not. all bush has to do is provide conclusive and tangible evidence of the claims he makes about his service, which would prove both him right and his opponents wrong at the same time. kerry on the other hand can do nothing more than state his reasons for his votes, which as of right now, cannot be scientifically proved or disproved.
some other topics to keep in mind:
a partisan website showing a different perspective behind the military budget cut claims against kerry:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127
and a nice little story that should appease the undecided voters:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=3&u=/latimests/20041011/ts_latimes/majorassaultsonholduntilafterusvote |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/07/2004 : 2:37:36 PM
As long as it's Bush Rhetoric Shampoo. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 10/07/2004 : 10:17:38 AM
you eat shampoo? |
| Arthen |
Posted - 10/07/2004 : 03:27:18 AM
Well you know, everyday after I shower with Bush Rhetoric Shampoo, I sit down and have a nice bowl of Bush Rhetoric Shampoo. That's why I'm ALWAYS spouting it out.
Please, I ask the question because I don't believe he has provided a good reason. It was a big fuck up on his part to vote for the war. Just because I happen to ask a question that is used by the Bush team, doesn't make it an invalid qustion.
That's like saying no one can question Bush's service record, which is obviously shitty, because John Kerry's team is always talking about it. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 10/06/2004 : 9:01:04 PM
I wonder what comes first... a black president or a female president or that we kill oursleves in nuclear war. |
|
|
