| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| PJK |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 1:09:14 PM
Maybe I am opening a can of worms here. I don't mean to sound like I am pushing my political views because I am not trying to do that. I just would like to know what all you guys (and women) are thinking about this.
I will tell you up front that I am registered Republican, but really feel I am a Libertarian. I will probably be changing my party to that in the near future.
I support our service men and woman, but not the war. This is why.
1) I don't believe the war on terrorism is one that can ever be won. It is the new tactic, the new type of war.
2) I don't believe in fighting an unconventional war, with conventional means.
Let me explain. Take the American Revolution. At first the patriots would fight the British European style, lines facing each other. Then learing from the American Indians they found that hiding behind something was more effective. I don't believe we could have defeated the British if not for this lesson learned.
Now look at terrorism. To fight it using the conventional methods seems futile to me. To fight you must think like a terrorist. It is strictly a war of prevention, staying one step ahead of the terrorists.
3) Although this sounds politically incorrect and I don't mean to offend anyone (I had a brother in law that was at the WTC on 9/11 but luckily survived) I am still in total awe at how ingeneous their plan was. The cost to them was minimal, the timing perfect, the effect was achieved. It didn't take a rocket scientist to do this, no weapon of mass destruction had to be created. They used ordinary objects, in this case jets, to do their dirty work.
I believe changes in our government system should have been the first means of defense. Our FBI and CIA should have been more coordinated.
4) When will people learn that retaliation is a futile defense? Retaliating for the death and mutilation of those contract workers and Nick Berg is not worth the downside.
Nothing will ever bring back the lives lost on 9-11. It makes me sadder Knowing that daily our servicemen and women are being killed and injured and something could be done to stop that from happpening.
5) If you want a peaceful nation, you must act in peaceful ways. Do not confuse this with being a whimp. I am not saying that. American does have a lot of enemies in the world. Many are understandable because of the way we act both militarily and in the business sector. I couldn't agree more than I do with Dennis Kucinich that we need a Cabinet for Peace.
6) No amount of good justifies going to war for the wrong reasons. I don't think too many Americans are fooled by the real reason we are in Iraq, a country we actually supported years earlier.
7) I see this war as another Vietnam. I don't think even if power is transfered to the people of Iraq in July as promised, that American forces will be coming home.
8) I am concerned about a draft being reinstated. If things go on the way they are now, that will likely happen....after the fall elections! Many of you and my son will be affected by this.
I still don't know who I am going to vote for but I know it won't be Bush. The candidate that gives me the most hope doesn't have a ghost of a chance of winning but I may vote for him anyway.
Sorry if I bummed anyone out. Just venting. I don't think I will watch the news for a few days. I feel like I have "war overload" and there is nothing I can do about it but pray. |
| 50 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 2:44:58 PM
Very true Tericee. I still feel like this is far from being over. A look at the other countries where the US has tried to impose "democracy" makes me depressed for the Iraqi people. They still have a lot going on ahead. I really do hope that the Iraqi people can dictate their own future even though they are not there yet. |
| tericee |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 09:56:56 AM
Here's an interesting note on the recently touted "sovreignty" of Iraq:
Sovereignty is the ability of one government to act without being subject to the legal control of another government, country or international organization, restrained only by moral principles.
Sovereignty was (in theory) transferred to Iraq on June 28, but when the question came up at a U.S. Senate hearing as to whether Iraq can the order U.S. troops to leave, the official answer was: not yet. Iraq won't become truly sovereign until it can do that, which won't happen until elections establish a permanent government. |
| tericee |
Posted - 06/02/2004 : 02:07:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by PJK
I will tell you up front that I am registered Republican, but really feel I am a Libertarian. I will probably be changing my party to that in the near future.
Libertarian Party Says It Will Drain Votes From Bush
(CNSNews.com) - The Libertarian Party nominated a presidential candidate on Sunday, and party officials said he "could attract enough votes from angry conservatives to cost President Bush his job."
The nominee is 49-year-old Michael Badnarik, a computer programmer from Austin, Tex., who has worked on defense-related projects.
Badnarik won the Libertarian Party's presidential nomination with 54 percent of the vote at the Party's national convention in Atlanta over the holiday weekend.
A Libertarian Party press release said Badnarik's victory was considered a shock because he had been beaten in the polls and primaries by two other candidates -- movie producer Aaron Russo and radio talk show host Gary Nolan.
"According to many undecided delegates, Badnarik's superior performance in the Saturday debates propelled him ahead of the other candidates," the press release said.
Badnarik, in his acceptance speech, said he would keep his campaign focused on the Constitution -- and forcing the government to abide by it.
According to the Libertarian Party, various political analysts say that frustrated conservatives may swing their votes away from President Bush to the Libertarian Party in 2004.
The Libertarians quote David Paul Kuhn, the chief political writer for CBSNews.com, who wrote in a May 21 article, "While Democrats fret over the possibility of Ralph Nader causing them to lose another election by stealing votes on the left, President Bush may face an even greater third-party threat from the right wing. The Libertarian nominee could cost Mr. Bush his job in 2004."
Kuhn reportedly said Libertarian nominee Badnarik "could be the Ralph Nader of 2004." He said Badnarik could attract enough conservative votes in Wisconsin, Oregon, and Nevada to affect the outcome of the presidential race.
The Libertarian Party says its presidential ticket received 382,892 popular votes in 2000. It also notes it ran 1,430 candidates in 2000 -- more than twice as many as all the other third parties combined.
"We fielded candidates for 255 of the 435 seats in the U.S. House, as well as 25 of the 33 Senate seats up for election, making the Libertarian Party the first third party in 80 years to contest a majority of the seats in Congress," the Libertarians' website says.
The Libertarians say they believe in a "free-market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above all others; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade as prescribed by America's founders."
The party also advocates the legalization of marijuana and other drugs; the elimination of the U.S. Department of Education; "free and open" immigration; personal retirement accounts; the right of self-defense; smaller government; and lower taxes.
|
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/23/2004 : 2:48:48 PM
that's because when i type, i like to leave out words sometimes. it's the cool thing to do. |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 05/22/2004 : 10:02:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
i'm here, you're we're here, we're discussing this. we all believe it's real, don't even try to deny anything. so why say something just self-destruct the second you open your fucking mouth.
No, there is a very good chance you are there, I am here, and we are here discussing this. Absolutes do not exist unless you are speaking of personal faith, in which case, you can believe that something is an absolute, like the existance of a diety or that we are all here. I am not denying anything, I am just conveying what is known or rather unknown. I could not quite decipher your last sentence there, but I appreciate the aggressive colloquialism. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/22/2004 : 6:57:04 PM
i'm here, you're we're here, we're discussing this. we all believe it's real, don't even try to deny anything. so why say something just self-destruct the second you open your fucking mouth. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/21/2004 : 2:06:09 PM
Exactly! |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 05/21/2004 : 12:50:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
because bread mold is here. we know it exists. there's something to talk about, to hold, to study, and for the daring, to eat.
Do we know it exists? Are we really here right now? Can you define this reality with 100% absolution?  |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/20/2004 : 3:25:48 PM
Correction:
If the world was a loaf of bread, politicians would be the mold.
It doesn't do any good to single out one, but any with power will not have your interests in mind. |
| rubylith |
Posted - 05/20/2004 : 2:49:06 PM
if the world was a slice of bread, bush would be the mold |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/20/2004 : 12:57:17 PM
God I love bread mold. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/20/2004 : 12:47:44 PM
because bread mold is here. we know it exists. there's something to talk about, to hold, to study, and for the daring, to eat. |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 10:29:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
there's no point in discussing theology because literally no one knows anything about that. it all boils down to "i think there's god." "i think there isn't." how futile.
It depends what you consider theology to be. I see it as the study of religious beliefs and history, though a God is inherently applied, it does not neccessarily need one to examine or discuss it as I learned in my oh so tedious theology classes. As futile as it may be to you and me, it makes life worth living for some people. One could say the study of bread mold is futile, yet people do it and who knows what could result from it? |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 9:54:36 PM
there's no point in discussing theology because literally no one knows anything about that. it all boils down to "i think there's god." "i think there isn't." how futile. |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 9:04:28 PM
Granted we don't know everything, maybe not even 25% of what is really going on, but isn't that a reason to suspect the course of action that was taken in Iraq? Our government is build on suspicion, not trust. The administration didn't make enough of a case for me, even if all they said was true, disregarding what was probably doctored or delivered with extreme spin, to go to kill thousands of people halfway across the world. I don't know if Iraq was planning something but I do know that this government did not make a strong enough case for me, not to mention most of what they said was false. Iraq had no Al Queda or Osama connections, anyone who knows anything about Saddam knows they hated each other and that Saddam was only muslim for PR.
You can play the "we don't know anything with 100% certainty" card, but when you say that to me it is like saying we're going to find them guilty before proven innocent, or shoot first; ask questions later. It has a much better place when discussing theology or physics. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 4:57:52 PM
plus it's all of one slant, and thusly suspect. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 1:53:55 PM
Still not all the info. |
| rubylith |
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 11:38:34 AM
if you guys want to see some interesting stuff goto www.infowars.com
there are some dvds you can get, but theres a lot of video clips there. Inforwars is like a portal to all these new sources. It puts everything in one place for you to think for yourself...without corporate controlled media. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 7:24:17 PM
Why was Socrates the smartest man? Because he knew he knew nothing. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 5:55:08 PM
Yes it bothers me everyday that I'm not omnipotent, but I live. No one really knows it all but I guess I just do my best to try. You guys should know by now I'm a damn know it all. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 4:49:36 PM
but doesn't that bother you? to know there's information out that you have yet to access and still forming an opinion on it, even though the missing information could totally change everything you ever thought about it? i'd never be able to function under such an uncertainty.
arthen covers the point pretty well, i guess. it's my contention that the availible isn't enough, and too tainted besides. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 3:09:45 PM
I think part of the point is that you haven't done research on all the information, but on the information that is available. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 1:09:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
my point about opinions is simply this: if you don't know a whole lot about it, why even bother cranking out some malformed opinion that's based on mainly ignorance, and then polluting the general public with it?
While I might not be privy to certain knowledge I still think I'm pretty informed on the currend Iraq/World situation. I dedicate a lot of my time to researching. All my opinions should mean to anyone is exactly 0. I think if you want to find out about something you should research it yourself. To say that I have no business expressing my opinion is BS. I understand that most people are so misinformed and underinformed that their opinions mean nothing. So does every opinion though. You have to research it for yourself cause the only opinion that matters is your own. If I had not done research on the topic I would stay away from it. I would like to know who you think is capable of stating his/her opinion without "polluting the general public"? It's up to each person to decide what is good or evil too. Just as it's up to each person to decide about opinions. I don't think exchanging ideas on the war is polluting anyone. I'm open to change I just form my opinions on the info I recieve and I think I do a good job of seeking out info. |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 05/18/2004 : 02:15:25 AM
http://www.musicscene.org/portalpak/forumdetail.asp?frid=183608
there is a url linked on that page, it is to a hour long documentary about the war.
watch it if you have the time, watch it if you dont.
|
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 10:32:15 PM
you are trained to obey orders beacause hesitation to do so in action may very well cost you your life and the lives of your fellow soldiers.
my point about opinions is simply this: if you don't know a whole lot about it, why even bother cranking out some malformed opinion that's based on mainly ignorance, and then polluting the general public with it? you're not doing anyone any good. it's dangerous, besides. people may be swayed towards your view, which again, isn't exactly based on a full understanding of the topic, and thus you spawn more misconceptions. aside from which, people who happen to know something about it get irritated. and when you're dealing in right and wrong, it's especially futile because right and wrong, because right and wrong are based on the upbringing and inclinations of the individual, and no one, no matter how educated, holds a monopoly on the truth of good and evil. obviously, opinions on subjective things like music, all opinions are valid, to a greater or lesser degree. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 9:51:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Macht
I don't think the military would want millions of people ready to shoot a gun without thinking. Takins someones life defianetly deserves thought. No program, human, group, or technology could make someone not think about shooting a gun.
boot camp is just supposed to make you not back talking and do things without question, but certainely not brainwash people.
I should have clarified that I meant in battle. So you don't have to think you just pull the trigger in a battle situation and you don't freeze. As far as the brain washing goes I've heard it from more than one person who has been in the army. My uncle left the army cause of some of the awful things he saw in the coruption and also the way they treated others. Like making them bark like dogs on the ground and doing other things to show superiority of rank. I'm no expert in this field but my opinion (dan p. ) is that you have to be brainwashed to want to kill your brother but that's just me. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 9:45:33 PM
Arthen I was taking it more from the standpoint of I was in control like a dictator. Those are the things I would work towards though just the same were I a president. Accomplishing them and working for them are 2 different things. That what gets me mad when everyone completely just bags on Bush for the war and all even though I do it myself a little, but it's more congresses fault in some ways as they are the jackasses that gave him power to delcare war. The Rep. and Dem. Congress that is. Damn legistators! Then Damn Bush too. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 7:34:07 PM
To Zach:
Your answer about what you would do makes the assumption that as President you can make those changes. I don't believe the president can. The president doesn't matter, the political party doesn't matter. Every president is a douchebag, except for Theodore Roosevelt. |
| Macht |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 6:33:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
[quote]Originally posted by Macht
Just a couple thoughts I had on this. First is that ya the reason for bootcamp has been shown to condition you to pull the trigger without thinking and taking and order without thinking. Just follow. From the people I know that have been in the military all of them told me they were brainwashed in the military. That's what boot camp and training is about.
I don't think the military would want millions of people ready to shoot a gun without thinking. Takins someones life defianetly deserves thought. No program, human, group, or technology could make someone not think about shooting a gun.
boot camp is just supposed to make you not back talking and do things without question, but certainely not brainwash people.
Part of what makes war inconceivable is that the THOUGHT of taking somones life away. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 6:24:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
exactly. and you understand why opinions are mostly worthless.
Agreed but I still have many and so does pretty much everyone. People should just search for truth. My opinion of the truth means nothing but I think that everyone should develop their opinions as to what truth is. Just so long as no one makes their opinion into the gospel or the law then opinions are good. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 5:57:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach
To dan p.-
In a way I agree with what you say. I mean I have never been to Iraq so technically I don't know if it even exists. It could be a hoax. So in that same respect you could almost no one is entitled to have an opinion on anything. I mean you don't know that Abraham lincoln really ever existed do you? You've never met him.
exactly. and you understand why opinions are mostly worthless. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 4:54:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Macht
Soldiers are meant to follow orders. Part of boot camp is getting you ready for that. In 6th grade my P.E. teachert old me that. Boot Camp is yeah sure you make you physically apt for war situations. But its also getting you ready to jump in front of a tank if someone higher thatn you tells you that.
A reason a lot of people went into drugs and crime after Vietnam becuase there was no support becuase they were blinded by their opinions of the desicions of the HIGHER people in office. It wasn't their fault THEY went to war for THOSE reasons. Yet people hated them. They gave them no support. All they wanted to hear was good job, you tried, or other words of encouragment/support/thanks.
A lot of soldiers are motivated by support. Boot camp, your are always driven by support from the drillers and the other recruits around you.
Just a couple thoughts I had on this. First is that ya the reason for bootcamp has been shown to condition you to pull the trigger without thinking and taking and order without thinking. Just follow. From the people I know that have been in the military all of them told me they were brainwashed in the military. That's what boot camp and training is about.
Then as far as supporting troops I can't really support something I disagree with. While of course they are just doing their duty that doesn't to me leave them blameless. There is always a choice. Hypothetically here if you were a soldier and I was your comander and told you to kill a family of women and childeren and you did so. Well obviously I would be responsible but not fully. You still pulled the trigger and you still accepted my authority. I mean hitler as one man couldn't have killed 6 million jews nor could any one man do anything like that. People talk about how bad Saddam is (and he is) but yet at the same time when he gassed all those people it wasn't only him there was a military there supporting him. In Vietnam there was the same thing like there is in all war. As far as feeling sorry for them yes. Do I blame the commanders more? Yes but that doesn't excuse everyone who lent there support to them. That's why no one should become a soldier because you are just giving your life away to someone else who you don't know and they don't know you.
I saw Troy this weekend and it really had a few good parts about this. The whole story is about how so many died for nothing but a women leaving her husband and the greed of a king. It's just not cool. Anyway that's enough from me for right now but I'm going to leave the lyrics to one of my favorite songs which I think says a lot.
War- Bob Marley
What life has taught me
I would like to share with
Those who want to learn...
Until the philosophy which hold one race
Superior and another inferior
Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
Everywhere is war, me say war
That until there are no longer first class
And second class citizens of any nation
Until the colour of a man's skin
Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes
Me say war
That until the basic human rights are equally
Guaranteed to all, without regard to race
Dis a war
That until that day
The dream of lasting peace, world citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion
To be persued, but never attained
Now everywhere is war, war
And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes
that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique,
South Africa sub-human bondage
Have been toppled, utterly destroyed
Well, everywhere is war, me say war
War in the east, war in the west
War up north, war down south
War, war, rumours of war
And until that day, the African continent
Will not know peace, we Africans will fight
We find it necessary and we know we shall win
As we are confident in the victory
Of good over evil, good over evil, good over evil
Good over evil, good over evil, good over evil |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 4:38:21 PM
To dan p.-
In a way I agree with what you say. I mean I have never been to Iraq so technically I don't know if it even exists. It could be a hoax. So in that same respect you could almost no one is entitled to have an opinion on anything. I mean you don't know that Abraham lincoln really ever existed do you? You've never met him. There is a certain amount of faith required though when dealing with these situations. I don't know everything and I don't pretend to. I don't think that disqualifies me from having an opinion though. I have researched this war and the current situation of our world quite a bit more than the averge joe. I've read thousands of pages and looked through countless reports. Often looking for sources of indepent people over in Iraq to get a picture of what's going on. So unless you think that the war is a hoax then you have to believe that yes inocent people are dying and that there is a war going on being waged for "US interests". I actaully have a friend who is a political science major and she tells me all the time how she doesn't know how but I know more than her about so much of the current situation. It's all pretty common sense to me. It's like Chomsky says you don't have to be a genious to figure this out just how to get past the indoctrination. I take a stand because I know that war is wrong. I also know that there is a small minority in oppistion to the needs and wants of the majority that control the majority to get their ends. Just cause I don't know everything doesn't entitle me to an opinion. An opinion is just an opinion nothing more. I just think that the more you research and look into something the more educated of an opinion you can have. You know it's funny for me not knowing anything I've pretty much predicted the course of the war. I was saying about a year ago that their would be a mass rebelion and that the Iraqi people would despise the occupation. I also talked about how Iraq would be privitized and opened for foreign investment, and how the US would be appointing a government and oppossing the will of the people. Why because history has this way of repeating itself. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 4:20:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
To Zach:
-I'd say WWII was pretty justified.
-I'd say the revolutionary war was pretty justified.
Well here's my views on that. In WWII to think that fascism would be ruling the world today is a scary thought. However in WWII you could not be certain you could defeat fascism although you could be certain to defeat Hitler and Mussolini. You also can't do away with the militarism, racism, imperialism, and violence. The 50 million lives lost did not accomplish any of that. With modern warfare what it is today the ability to kill masses of people is astonishing. Thus I think that it's to the point were the means do not justify the ends. I think whatever problems we face, and what ever situation we find ourselves in we have to come up with a better solution than the mass murder of human beings. It's a tough question indeed to ask then what would or should we have done in WWII? I don't say we become passive or anything but that you resist without war. Hitler was even resisted successfully at times in WWII in Denmark, Norway and even Germany. They of course were still overwhelmed by the repressive powers but it's something that is more in line with means justifing the end especially since it was a movement of the people and not the government. Politicians and government officials will say in any war well inocent people die but that's just too bad. At the same time that's what terrorists say. That's what Timothy Mcveigh said. As for the Revolutionary war it's quite the same. If you really study the revoloutionary war you see that it was a war (like most) of economics. The rich land owners were the ones that really wanted a seperation from england. Look at all the famous revoloutionaries and there is pretty much a common profile for them all. Rich, white, and owned land. They were the ones really pushing for this war. Study about the slaves or indentured servants from then and see their supprot for the war. There was actually quite a bit of resistance to that war. It's all in A peoples history of the United States. Then look what we've gotten from that war. America got her freedom right and gained independence? Unless you were black of course or of a lower class. Do you think things changed dramatically for them? Are we not today under opression by this same government the war was fought for?
Basically the statement "just war" is and oxy moron. War is never just. Inocent people die. War brings no justice. I think that if you study history than you can really see (although it's often hid rather well by those in power who dominate history) that anything that has really been accomplished; (i.e. human rights victories, ending segregation, and women's rights) was primarily achieved through a popluar resistance from the people. History books may tell you lincoln freed the slaves or martin luther king jr. ended segregation but neither of those leaders would have been were they are without the support of the peoples movements that were the base. People often credit the so called leaders of something to say that well everyone needs to get behind some great leader and that's how things are accomplished. However if you read in depth about the civil rights movements you start to read stories about individuals that stood up and communities that organized and how the movement wasn't just one person leading many it was many leading a person. That's how I see the human race making progress is by massive revoloutions not of war but by the people. By mass movements of the people.
quote:
And now a question that I've been thinking about, I've never asked it, but always wondered about a response. 9-11 has happened, you are in command and in charge. What actions do you take?
If I was in charge besides being assasinated before I had a chance to do anything I would have a few ideas. First things first would be a complete change in the US foreign policy. I would stop the US from installing dictators and training counter insurgents (terrorists) and quit supporting those governments. I would actaully work for a solution to the Isreal-Palestine affairs and give Palestine it's own state. Probably based on the original camp david agreement. Then I would give palestine an equal amount of aid. That's a very complex problem but that's a start is to stop the overwhelming support for Isreal. Then ya of course I would go after those responsible for 9-11 but not by dropping bombs from thousands of feet in the air. That way at least if you don't find them you didn't just murder inocent people along the way like we did. Also it means little for us to accuse others of such war crimes and acts when there are many in our government guilty of the same things. So I would try to finally get a permanent war crimes court up which the US has refused for good reason as many US officals have obviously commited them. Then I would stop the imperlist global strategy. Stop forcing free market economics on the world especially our dominance in the western hemisphere. Then education of the people is essential. The people now are so uninformed and missinformed that it's scary. That would be my start is to seek out those responsible, look at the grieviances people have and work to change them so we are a country that is loved not despised. Also instead of spending the billions on war and military I would sponser the $100 billion for health services that the world needs to save and estimated 8 million lives a year. The way you become a loved country and is not to build up your military and commit mass murder through war. That would be my start anyway. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 2:17:13 PM
Well, actually I'm in the CIA. So, now I have to kill you all.
But seriously, I agree with you completely Dan. That's why I don't ever really take a stand one way or the other, cause I know there are things that I don't know. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 2:03:50 PM
i would avoid an opinion on whether or not a war, this one namely, is right or wrong (aside from the fact that right and wrong don't really exist) simply because none of here really know anything. read whatever newspapers you want. watch whatever news you want. all your knowledge and personal experience means exactly nothing because let's face it, the people who make decisions are bound to be privy to information we do not have. you can speculate that it's a war to free iraq, or that it's war for oil, but in the end that's all it is: speculation.
we are musicians, students, nurses, and whatever else. is someone here a political science major? is someone here part of the us government? is someone here a high rakning miliary offical? we have at best limited knowledge of what's actually happening. i think that the aliens arthen talked about are behind it all, and you know what? that's as valid a guess as any other so far. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 01:38:21 AM
To Zach:
-I'd say WWII was pretty justified.
-I'd say the revolutionary war was pretty justified.
There will never be a world without war. People cannot live on the same planet without one group wanting to kill another group, whether it is for religion, or over differences. One day aliens will come to bring us peace, and we'll probably want to have a war with them too.
And now a question that I've been thinking about, I've never asked it, but always wondered about a response. 9-11 has happened, you are in command and in charge. What actions do you take? |
| Macht |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 11:39:09 PM
Soldiers are meant to follow orders. Part of boot camp is getting you ready for that. In 6th grade my P.E. teachert old me that. Boot Camp is yeah sure you make you physically apt for war situations. But its also getting you ready to jump in front of a tank if someone higher thatn you tells you that.
A reason a lot of people went into drugs and crime after Vietnam becuase there was no support becuase they were blinded by their opinions of the desicions of the HIGHER people in office. It wasn't their fault THEY went to war for THOSE reasons. Yet people hated them. They gave them no support. All they wanted to hear was good job, you tried, or other words of encouragment/support/thanks.
A lot of soldiers are motivated by support. Boot camp, your are always driven by support from the drillers and the other recruits around you.
Anyone who doesn't support troops are probably becuase they are blind by their disagreements with the government. (again im blabbing :P) I guess the bottom line is don't accuse PJK not supporting our troops. She's cleary smart not to let her view of the goverment blind her. |
| PJK |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 11:05:06 PM
Nah Dan, this is my feelings. I support the soldiers as far as I would always wish what is best for them. My father fought in WWII. He went to West Point but dropped out to marry my mother. (It was harder for him to get out than get in.) He then went to Yale. He was drafted or signed up for the Army, I never asked. All but a handful of what would have been his graduating class from West Point died in the war. Someone was truly looking out for him because he was either going to be sent to Panama or the Phillipines. He was sent to Panama. Had he gone to the Phillipines he would have been on the Bataan Death March.
My husband served during the Vietnam war but was stationed in Germany. Two of my brother-in-law's fought in Vietnam. One was a marine and saw the worst of the worst. Came back addicted to drugs and took years to be able to cope with life again. The other one didn't really see any fighting where he was stationed.
The point is I was brought up to respect the soldiers. Remember that soldiers follow orders, the President is supposed to be the leader of the armed forces.
I don't support our President's views, I did not support his decision to go into Afganastan or Iraq. That doesn't mean I don't care about what is happening to our soldiers. One of my son's friends will be sent to Iraq soon. He is like a second son to me. I fear for his life. I care about him. I would do whatever I could to make things as easy as possible. I wouldn't write him letters or emails putting down the war, I would avoid that subject all together other than tell him to be safe and I am praying for him. I would tell him to stay alert and tell him how proud I am of him.
Does that make any sense to you Dan? Speaking for myself it is in NO WAY trying to avoid confrontations with soldiers. I saw first hand how my brother-in-law's were treated when they returned from Vietnam and I could never do that to anyone. It was ugly! |
| dan p. |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 9:57:59 PM
i don't understand. against the war, not against the soldiers.. so . . you're against what the soldiers are doing, but not the soldiers. doesn't make sense. i always get the feeling that the person who thought that up was just trying to avoid confrontations with soldiers. |
| Macht |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 9:56:10 PM
I appreciate your thoughts. Some of the points you have come up with I have met up to (the son and the brilliance of the planning.)
I happen to agree with the plan for 9/11. It was birlliant. Our country defianately needed to be prepared for this and that is why there is excessive security now, now that we realize it can happen.
Would revenge bring back my son? NO. Revenge like hate is a destructive emotion that eats ones soul like a cancer. It consumes your every thought and no good comes out of it.
This opens my mind. I have had the experiences of two wrongs before. I actually do happen to have guilt sometimes when I deliver my so called just desserts. However, I do believe some justice is needed. To the point where they realize that what they did is wrong and they do get punished (and also that they shouldn't do it becuase they will get punished). Like if someone murdered my son I would have them in life in prison, but wouldn't give them the chair or something.
I suppose in war it would be a different mind set. if you have seen the Fog of War (good movie btw despite me disagreeing with the interviewers bias.) it talks about McNamara and Vietnam. In one of his last hings he mentions that the Fog of War is such a great term becuase war is so beyond the human comprehension. Peoples lives are being slaughtered by a few peoples disagreements on both sides.
I might disagree with you on some terms as of with the war just becuase I am considering joining the Military and the people in the Military do see things in a different perspective. My favorite teacher once told me about when he was in Vietnam (he got drafted.) He said when the action is happening, you don't understand whats going on. You just do what your told.
Sorry if I may have seem to been babbling there. But yeah thanks for your input on my responses there PJK
Edit: Oh and PJK the can of worms is pretty much open it looks like. Oh well it usually stays pretty civil on these boards.
thats what makes these boards great.
|
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 9:48:59 PM
Oh and PJK the can of worms is pretty much open it looks like. Oh well it usually stays pretty civil on these boards. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 9:45:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Macht
For peace to happen you must let war happen in case other people go to war. To prevent war you need to prepare for war
Not sure I get what you're saying there in the first sentence. To prevent war I believe you need to prepare for peace not war. If you prepare for something that means you are planning for it to happen.
quote:
Wrong reasons? We are liberating a country, we are getting rid of WMD's...
If by liberation you mean refusing elections and going against the majority in Iraq's wishes. As for the WMD's I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that they had them or that they've gotten rid of them. I'd love to see some. My thoughts on them being liberated = them having free market economics forced on them. Opening the country up for foreign investment.
quote:
they shouldn't go home, they are building schools and hospitals and such. Most people want them. People that want them out are Saddam loyalists
Actually I don't believe this is true. The military is not building schools and hospitals. Last I heard we were bombing power plants in Fallelujah knocking out power to 4 hospitals. The military is primarily "keeping the peace" (quotations because men with guns do not bring peace). Then as far as the people that want us out are saddam loyalists is false. Such a high percentage of people are glad that Saddam is gone. However from the poll I looked at 57% want the forces to leave immediatly. Everyone should look at this poll. http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/28/iraq.poll/iraq.poll.4.28.pdf
"What is striking is how much has changed in a week – a week. No one can talk about the Sunni Triangle anymore. No one can seriously talk about Sunni-Shia fragmentation or civil war. The occupation cannot talk about small bands of resistance. Now it is a popular rebellion and it has spread."
—Wamid Nadhmi, a political science professor at Baghdad University
quote:
Btw wmds have not been found becuase we were too late. If we broadcast YES WE ARE COMING TO GET YOUR WMD's on International television and even say we are coming a week later then yes they will move it
So you are saying that we knew for sure that they had WMD's, but I have seen no proof. The fact is is that there is no proof they had WMD's in the period just before the war. If I see some evidence I could see this. BTW I always find it funny that Iran and Kuwait 2 countries that have been attacked by Iraq were not threatened or concerned about Saddam's WMD's. Considering the US which Iraq doesn't even have the range to attack other than by some terrorist thing was pushing so hard for the Security council resolutions, and yet two countries that actually have been attacked before and are in range of attacks are not pushing for this tells me something.
quote:
If I murdered your son, would you not want revenge?
If you killed my hypothetical son and I wanted revenge and killed you would that in any way take away the loss that I've suffered? Would it in anyway help me to overcome the loss? Of course it would be hard to not want revenge in someway but that in no way justifies it. Especially if I were to then kill you're family as well. That's about the way it works. I believe the Fallelujah ratio was 60 americans to 600 iraqis. So I'll kill 9 of your family members too ok.
Not to flame you or anything I just think you might not have done as much research on the situation with some of the claims you've made. 71% of the Iraqi people feel we are mostly occupiers. I don't want to disrespect you at all though. Just saying what you heard differs from what I've heard. It's up to you to decide what's correct. Just thought I'd point a few things out though. Basically no offense to you personally as I don't want to have this sound like a personal attack. It's not. |
| PJK |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 9:12:53 PM
quote:
Wrong reasons? We are liberating a country, we are getting rid of WMD's...
There were no weapons of mass destruction found. We did NOT go there to liberate a country. That is this administrations cry now that the real mission failed.
quote:
Btw wmds have not been found becuase we were too late. If we broadcast YES WE ARE COMING TO GET YOUR WMD's on International television and even say we are coming a week later then yes they will move it
While I agree that the TV gives away too much information sometimes, I can't disagree with you more about the presence of WMD's. I can explain why I feel this way but I don't have time to do it now. It's almost a whole different topic in itself.
quote:
Plan wasn't ingenious, we just had stupid people in the airport. Hmm one way tickets, a group of the same people not that much luggage........
I beg to differ on this too. After the fact it seems like an obvious oversight, but they knew no one would question them. They researched for percise departures and they had to be coordinated to leave within minutes of each other. Once in flight, the timing of when to hijack the planes were critical. All of the crashes had to happen within a window of time. Their only big mistake was forgetting about cell phones, thus the last plane crashed in PA. These were not stupid people.
quote:
If I murdered your son, would you not want revenge?
If my son was murdered by a single person I would want the person caught and sentenced so it wouldn't happen to someone else. If he was killed by an act of terrorism, my anger would more likely be directed at the lack of security for not preventing it. If he died in war, I would blame the administration unless it was a war that I supported. If I felt he died to defend our country, it would feel much differently than if he was sent to Iraq, a war I do not support. Would revenge bring back my son? NO. Revenge like hate is a destructive emotion that eats ones soul like a cancer. It consumes your every thought and no good comes out of it.
quote:
For peace to happen you must let war happen in case other people go to war. To prevent war you need to prepare for war
What do you mean? Wipe them out before they wipe us out? I don't think we were in any immediate danger from Iraq. I do however agree with the latter of what you said, that we do need to always be prepared for it.
Macht, I am glad you and Zach responded to my post in a big way. I am never so hardened in my thoughts that I could never change them and I like being able to share feelings on something that is important like the war. You never know when something someone says can open ones eyes to a different view. I look forward to any responses you might have.
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| Macht |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 8:12:54 PM
1) I don't believe the war on terrorism is one that can ever be won. It is the new tactic, the new type of war.
Terror can never been ended. rather it should be, a threat to terror.
I believe changes in our government system should have been the first means of defense. Our FBI and CIA should have been more coordinated.
They just set it up to look important. They don't do much for our own country. Cia set up friendly dictators, FBI does home survelliance, NSA actually tries to protect identity in America.
5) If you want a peaceful nation, you must act in peaceful ways. Do not confuse this with being a whimp. I am not saying that. American does have a lot of enemies in the world. Many are understandable because of the way we act both militarily and in the business sector. I couldn't agree more than I do with Dennis Kucinich that we need a Cabinet for Peace.
For peace to happen you must let war happen in case other people go to war. To prevent war you need to prepare for war
6) No amount of good justifies going to war for the wrong reasons. I don't think too many Americans are fooled by the real reason we are in Iraq, a country we actually supported years earlier.
Wrong reasons? We are liberating a country, we are getting rid of WMD's...
7) I see this war as another Vietnam. I don't think even if power is transfered to the people of Iraq in July as promised, that American forces will be coming home.
they shouldn't go home, they are building schools and hospitals and such. Most people want them. People that want them out are Saddam loyalists
8) I am concerned about a draft being reinstated. If things go on the way they are now, that will likely happen....after the fall elections! Many of you and my son will be affected by this.
Draft won't happen don't worry.
Btw wmds have not been found becuase we were too late. If we broadcast YES WE ARE COMING TO GET YOUR WMD's on International television and even say we are coming a week later then yes they will move it
EDIT: Some more points i put in later
3) Although this sounds politically incorrect and I don't mean to offend anyone (I had a brother in law that was at the WTC on 9/11 but luckily survived) I am still in total awe at how ingeneous their plan was. The cost to them was minimal, the timing perfect, the effect was achieved. It didn't take a rocket scientist to do this, no weapon of mass destruction had to be created. They used ordinary objects, in this case jets, to do their dirty work.
Plan wasn't ingenious, we just had stupid people in the airport. Hmm one way tickets, a group of the same people not that much luggage........
4) When will people learn that retaliation is a futile defense? Retaliating for the death and mutilation of those contract workers and Nick Berg is not worth the downside
If I murdered your son, would you not want revenge?
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| PJK |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 6:49:59 PM
quote:
And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "...you must think like a terrorist" Pam. Are you saying that you just have to keep a step ahead of them defensively? Or that you should attack like a terrorist?
I am saying to keep one step in front of them. I do not believe in terrorist activity, and acting like them would not make the world better.
Zach, I appreciate your views. I think we are basically on the same page on our views. This is not to say I only appreciate your views because I agree with them.
As for my comparison of the Vietnam war, most of you weren't around during that war, I was and while I was a small child when it started I grew up to watch friends get killed there. The way that war started which, BTW was never a declared war, there weren't too many casualties. The high numbers came with the escalation of the war. Honestly the numbers don't make a difference to me. When people die you rob families and create saddnes, and it doesn't matter if its Americans or civilians, death brings sorrow. Let's not forget all the injured. A local man came back without his legs and blind.
Remember too, that in our democracy we supposedly separate religion and state. That is not true in Iraq and never will be.
For the record I didn't support going into Afganistan either. |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 6:17:31 PM
PJK I'll tell you what I think of the war.    That should about sum it up. The first thing I think you have to consider is the arguement is this war just? My opinion is that no war is just since I have never seen a just war. However the proponents for this war obviously have justified it which is very necessary. Then you have to make the public feel that this war is just. That too is also necessary. Though when I look at the arguements for this being a just war it doesn't work for me logically.
1. This "war on terror" we've embarked on is not working. Since the war on terror has been launched we have invaded afghanistan to find those responsible for the 9-11 attacks. Yet the New York Times reported on Dec. 20,2001 "Virtually the entire top leadership of the Taliban has survived the American bombing and eluded capture by American back Afghan forces." So by their own objectives they have failed. All that war has accomplished is to kill many inocent civilians it has not weakened terrorists. I think the best way to fight terror is to first stop participating in it through training, funding, and other support to terrorists. Also it doesn't make sense to try to end terrorism by wreaking havoc on a country and dropping bombs from thousands of feet in the air. So as far as the war on terror in Iraq goes I think it's complete BS and not the way to fight terror even though there still exists no evidence to my knowledge linking Iraq with 9-11 which is the only terrorism the US seems to care about is the stuff that happens to us.
2. The objectives in Iraq depending on the day of the week were to get WMD's and Liberate the Iraq people so they could have democracy. The first part has been a failure and I thought everyone knew that no WMD's had been found but then I saw a poll that said like 40% (or around there this is off the top of my head) believed we had found WMD. So the stated reason for going was a failure and now a lot of people seem to except what GWB is saying is that well from what we knew we thought there were so from what we knew what else could we have done. Then they refuse to show any credible evidince as well. What could they have done though? Not start a pre-emptive war. That's why it's against international law is because you can declare about any country a threat to national security and attack them just like Grenada, and Nicaragua. Then on the second part of liberation and democracy. The US since being in Iraq despite many protests have refused to allow the Iraqi people to elect the governing council which was apointed by the US. Bringing democracy to Iraq is a sham. As far as the polls go the Iraqi people want the US out ASAP. The occupation is not in the best interest of the Iraqi people it is in the US's best interests. Which interests are corporate, but I won't get into that. So once again they have failed by their stated objectives.
3. There has been an intense propaganda campaign to get the public behind this war. Most people don't know what's going on in Iraq. I was surprised how big this execution thing got to be and how it exploded. How all the sudden people are just so angry. I'm thinking how is it that only now after thousands of deaths are we getting mad. Only now? It's because it's been personalized I think. It's not as hard to see a statistic in a paper and think well that's too bad but we are there for a good cause than it is when you see the people die. If only we had film of all the Iraqi civilians and US troops being killed so it would personalize it and people would realize how bad it is. There is a huge amount of ignorance out there. Just talking to friends last night about the execution and their comments of "well we may have abused some prisoners but we don't just behead them", really got to me. Then I started telling them about what we recently did in Fallelujah (?spelling). After the deaths of the contractors GWB said "I want to see heads roll." So we first bombed their generators and took out their power supply. This knocked out 4 hospitals operating in the city. Then we basically set snipers up everywhere and reports have come in about the single bullet holes that you find in the windshield of an ambulance which killed the driver causing the ambulance to crash. They weren't killed by stray bullets but by a precise shot. My friends were just as appalled at that but yet they had no idea that stuff was going on just as the general publice has no idea. "The stupidity of the average man is controlled by propaganda."-TR
4. I think people need to undertand terrorism. Look at the defintion of terrorism and the definition used by leaders and most of the media. That seems to be if we do it it's not terrorism, but if they do it is. Far to often people see people trying to understand the why's of 9-11 and why's of terrorism as a justification for it. However you have to realize that I am in no way justifing it or supporting it. I think however that the 9-11 attacks came because of these reasons... the US military having bases in saudi arabia, and our policies in Isreal and Iraq. GWB has said terrorists hate us because they oppose our freedoms and democracy. However look at Osama, and look at what side he was on before 1990. He was on our side, fighting to take control of Afghanistan. Things have obviously changed but that clearly shows that terrorists are not attacking us beacause we love freedom. We were no less free or democratic then then we are now. So then you still have the question of why and it's the US's foreign policy. It's weird how people never ask why for some things. Like when the Maine was blown up in Guantanimo bay no one asked what was it doing there in the first place. Instead it became the battle cry. BTW it was blown up by an engine defect. Then when our battleship got blown up in Yeman no one asked what was out battleship doing in Yeman. A change in foreign policy and to fight against terrorism by means other than violence is the best option for ending terrorism.
5. Then the resemblance of a holy war scares me. GWB has talked about how god is not neutral in this conflict and such (sorry don't have the direct quote handy). It sickens me to see GWB invoke god into this and talk about how god is on our side. It sickens me just as much as seeing people kill in the name of god on the other side. Read The War Prayer by mark twain for god's sake. Two sides both with god fighting each other...
I'll finish this up now since I've put more than my 2 cents in, but I would just like everyone to take a look at what's going on and not get caught up in all the support the troops BS, and the remeber 9-11 and the get in line we have to support our president BS. After 9-11 we went and killed more innocent people dropping bombs on Afghanistan, and I don't support it. Then we've killed many more in Iraq and what for? I don't support it at all. I feel for the US troops but I'm not going to call them my troops. They don't do what I want them to. I'm not going to ever support an army of the likes we have now nor any army. Just realize war sucks and not to bag on the wise man's communion (prayer) but there is a lot you can do besides that. Educate yourself and others. Read Terrorism and War by Howard Zinn, Hegemony or Surrvival by Chomsky, Bush in Babylon by Tariq Ali, and independant media. Ya do a little research it's not that hard. Better than watching TV. Then get the truth out there. Organize, plan, and get your voice heard. There is much to do. Prayer is not going to hurt but I think that you are supposed to do all that you can as well and not just leave it to God. Oh and as for the draft I hope it does come back in a way so that we can get an anti war movement going stronger. No one wants to go to Iraq and fight. I don't want to see it happen though cause it will mean more truely inocent people will die. There is always a choice though. A choice to resist but still... Well that's it I'm done. That's what I think of the war. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 2:49:15 PM
The draft won't be reinstated. The American public is split over the war, but it's a majority that is against the draft.
And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "...you must think like a terrorist" Pam. Are you saying that you just have to keep a step ahead of them defensively? Or that you should attack like a terrorist?
I also don't understand what a Cabinet/Department of Peace would do. Honestly, from just reading the name, it doesn't sound like anything that will work, but maybe that's because I'm a cynic and believe that world peace is impossible.
I understand the comparison to Vietnam, but thank God the casualties aren't on the same level (not that it makes them any less important, I'm just saying thank God not as many people are being killed). |
| bugman96 |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 2:33:11 PM
I agree. Should the draft be reinstated, northward I will go.
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| GuitarGuy305 |
Posted - 05/16/2004 : 1:48:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PJK
8) I am concerned about a draft being reinstated. If things go on the way they are now, that will likely happen....after the fall elections! Many of you and my son will be affected by this.
If that is the case...I hope some of you will join me in singing....
"Oh Canada......." |
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