| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KevinLesko |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 01:01:35 AM
check out this story: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/newsarticle.asp?nid=19053
my school was actually one of the screening locations this evening, so I got to see it for free. It's an interesting movie, because it makes the points that the liberals have been making, except this isn't a bunch of leftist liberals, the experts in the movie are mostly made of former CIA members, former gov't analysts, and even former weapons inspectors.
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| 32 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 12/17/2003 : 03:16:51 AM
Semi-related article. Should probably be taken with a grain of salt but hey...
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=4686 |
| Arthen |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 11:20:25 PM
Chalupas, ha ha ha. Moving into the Taco Bell theme! |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 10:20:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
If a person with little (or no) integrity is presenting a message to me, however moving it may be, it's not likely that I'm gonna jump up and agree with it.
Word. Which is why we all need to think for ourselves. Clearly motive is the best way to determine if someone is handing you a shit chalupa. Bush, Moore, Dean, O'Reilly, they're all handing us shit chalupa's but we need to decide what shit we can handle and what shit we can't. It's sad, but it is what we the people have allowed to happen.
quote:
Every official that come in
Cripples us leaves us maimed
Silent and tamed
And with our flesh and bones
He builds his homes
Southern fist
Rise through tha jungle mist
Clenched to smash power so cancerous
Black flag and a red star
A rising sun loomin over Los Angeles
Yes for Raza livin in La La
Like Gaza on to tha dawn Intifada
Reach for the lessons tha masked pass on
Seize tha metropolis
Its you its built on
Everything can change on new years day
Everything can change on a new years day
Everything can change on a new years day
Everything changed on a new years day
Cmon
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land
Their existence is a crime
Their seat, their robe, their tie
Their land deeds
Their hired guns
Theyre tha crime
Shots heard underground round the rapture
Worlds eye captured
At last is a Mexican pasture
Tha masked screaming land or deathWithin a breath
A war from the depth of time
Shot four puppet governors in a line
Shook all tha world bankers
Who think they can rhyme
Shot the landlords who knew it was mine
Yes its a war from the depth of time
And everything can change on a new years day
Everything can change on a new years day
Everything can change on a new years day
Everything can change on a new years day
Cmon
Uh
Wearin the masked scream
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
Its land or death (whispered)
Yeaaaaaah
Uh
Cmon, cmon, yes, yes, yes
Its war within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
War within a breath
Its land or death
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| KevinLesko |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 10:10:40 PM
quote:
If a person with little (or no) integrity is presenting a message to me, however moving it may be, it's not likely that I'm gonna jump up and agree with it
Hallelujah... this has to do with my original point I was trying to make in this thread: that the people in the movie I saw DO have integrity, or at the very least, they are respected “experts” in their respective fields, and with that integrity, they bring a whole new aspect to the points they chose to make in that movie. I wouldn't call he movie propaganda, or a documentary, or a comedy, or anything other than information. And with all information, the best thing to do is to not believe it, but not disbelieve it either, just file it away in your brain for future reference.
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| Arthen |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 9:28:44 PM
If a person with little (or no) integrity is presenting a message to me, however moving it may be, it's not likely that I'm gonna jump up and agree with it. |
| thomasode |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 9:00:19 PM
point taken, but what if people were compleatly closed minded to gun control.... |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 8:40:08 PM
if people are changing their minds based on half lies, or half truths if you're an optimist, that's a problem. what if folks changed their minds based on bush's half lies? |
| thomasode |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 8:39:06 PM
also may I add you, many fictional films (along with non fiction) have created very moving and powerful points |
| thomasode |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 8:26:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
oh oh oh. i see what you're saying. ok. that's different. i suppose that he might have altered and half lied about some things for the sake of making a point. that's understandable, but when you're presenting a point in a serious documentary, you can't go doing that sort of thing, because it puts the message you're sending it jeopardy. people will dismiss it without a second thought if they find that some of the things are intentionally misleading. it's like serving some nice gourmet chocolate ice cream in a bowl of shit. if you can tell the difference, you won't eat it, and if you can't, well, you'll just end up eating shit. not the best analogy, but i stand by it.
Thank you. Now youre gettin what I'm Saying. I dont give a damn on what kind of film it is. It still gave a very powerful message about non violence. I think the way he "half lied" made many many people think and made some change their minds. you can call it a documentery or a work of fiction, the point I am making is that either way it presents a very powerful and moving point.
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| dan p. |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 6:06:29 PM
what defamy? i honestly think you have a problem with words. you demfamed my post and me, by accusing me of doing thing you literally just dreamt up. it's not there. IT'S NOT FUCKING THERE. everyone here can see what i wrote, and they can see what you wrote. so why would you jsut make shit up? and that's why i'm being so negative. it's one thing to disagree, but to just blindly throw out accusations that AREN'T EVEN APPLICABLE and then projecting those faults onto me is ridiculous beyond belief. you have yet to make even one valid point and now your leaving. when else have i been hurtful to someone who's disagreed with me besides right now? way to throw accusations out there and not back them up with anything. and now you're going to leave? coward.
oh, and before you turn your tail and flee, i should give you credit on one thing. although the comment you made about tim's music had nothing to do with the argument, and although say you can't tolerate people not like you being into your music it was an intellgent insight to the fact that music alone can transend politics different viewpoints. on that we agree. |
| Katchoo |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 4:53:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
who did i endorse? what thread are you reading? let's review what i've said so far:
i called michael moore a hack and a fraud. that's not propaganda, and it's not an endorsement. it's an opinion. there's a big difference. does the link you've provided elaborate on this?
then:
i misuderstood thomasode's post and told him that his attitude is crappy. again no endorsement or propaganda. just a verbal misfire.
afterwards he made clear my mistake. i then stated my opinion on why bowling columbine is a poorly done and misleading film, no matter what the intention was. i illustrated with an analogy about eating shit and gourmet chocolate ice cream, which could have been better. no endorsements, no propaganda.
oh, sure. i might have let you reread it yourself, but rather than risk you making the same reading comprehension errors, it's better to break it all down. next time, sharpen your emotional knives before you throw them.
It's really really hard to avoid name calling and retribution for your belittlement, disrespect for and complete defamy of my post. It takes discipline to debate, not berate. And that difference can mean the beginning or ending of the discourse at hand.
This discussion is going nowhere really fast. It's a shame. I give Tim much love, because I would personally find it really hard to balance the fact that your admiration with his work is only matched in intensity by the enormity of your negativity and hateful and hurtful demeanor towards others who disagree with your point of view. But it takes all types to build a fan base. Yin and yangs of life, I suppose.
Peace yall. I'm outtie.
K. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 4:02:57 PM
hahaha. i love taco bell. i endorse taco bell. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 3:27:30 PM
I've read Micahel Moore's defense several times, and he doesn't address all the points, only the ones he thinks he can weasel out of.
And lots of time I hear people refer to anything the media does now a days as "Conservative Propaganda". I'm not trying to defend any of it, I think it's all bad, but people believe one, and then yell at other people for believing the other. |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 3:25:23 PM
I think Taco Bell meat would have worked better than chocolate ice cream. I was fearfull saturday night after a gig when I went through the drive through...I smelled each taco very carefully....  |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 3:15:10 PM
who did i endorse? what thread are you reading? let's review what i've said so far:
i called michael moore a hack and a fraud. that's not propaganda, and it's not an endorsement. it's an opinion. there's a big difference. does the link you've provided elaborate on this?
then:
i misuderstood thomasode's post and told him that his attitude is crappy. again no endorsement or propaganda. just a verbal misfire.
afterwards he made clear my mistake. i then stated my opinion on why bowling columbine is a poorly done and misleading film, no matter what the intention was. i illustrated with an analogy about eating shit and gourmet chocolate ice cream, which could have been better. no endorsements, no propaganda.
oh, sure. i might have let you reread it yourself, but rather than risk you making the same reading comprehension errors, it's better to break it all down. next time, sharpen your emotional knives before you throw them. |
| Fleabass76 |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 2:56:19 PM
Michael defends himself here: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/ |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 1:42:16 PM
"No, I don't. Why should I? How can there be inaccuracy in comedy?"-Michaeal Moore
Just found this at the bottom of one of the sites Arthen gave. They pointed out an inaccuracy in his book, about the . . . well here it is.
two-thirds of the $190 million that President Bush raised in his 2000 campaign came from just over 700 individuals, a preposterous assertion given that the limit for individual contributions at the time was $1,000.
Like I said before it's not really propaganda. So Moore wasn't completely accurate. I'm not going to just sit here and defend him to the end. I thought some of the points he made in his book were valid and good. I also thought a lot of it was comedic and a little ridiculous. Over all I thought he did a good job on it. If you want to call it propaganda go ahead. Just realize that there's a lot of comedy in this book. If he has 5 facts wrong in his book out of how ever many he gives I can except that(besides it's not his fault if he recieved inaccurate sources and didn't know it). It's more of his comedic style of writing I enjoyed, than his assesment of our world.
On a side topic though I was wondering if any of you thought the same thing about Chomsky that you did about Moore? |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:55:05 PM
Well this is all very interesting. I have actually never seen Bowling for Columbine. The Moore work I am familar with is his book Stupid White Men. I've aslo heard a few speeches he's given. I haven't read his new book yet either. So I guess I'll have to wacth his movie and see what I think. So I think we can end this Moore and propaganda arguement thing. If the movie was full of propaganda then I guess I was wrong, but I would like to see someone to show me something about his book that is false(already found something).
The thing that gets me is about any time anyone voices an opinion of dissent someone calls it liberal propaganda or liberal rantings. The whole thing seems pretty ridiculous. To tell you the truth though, I can't really think of any so called "liberal propaganda" that was responsible for something really bad. Like it was the "liberal propaganda" that made everyone think it's okay to unlawfully invade a country and institute a regime change. Like it was the "liberal propaganda" that's been able to support a the most powerful empire ever for the last 50+ years. If you want to talk about bad propaganda talk about that stuff. Talk about what happened in the last year or two since 9/11. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:33:58 PM
To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen Dan endorse anyone Katchoo. When did he use propaganda? |
| Katchoo |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:16:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dan p.
so basically as long as it makes you feel good, you agree. i'm sorry you had to endure all that, but that's a crappy attitude to have regardless. you are not the only one to have been involved with something traumatic, like being assailed with weapons. we cannot let the fear and hate we feel cloud our sense. i find the fact that you allow michael moore's misleadings and near lies because it makes you feel good highly disturbing.
And yet your opinions and the researchers and leaders that you endorse are somehow better? You buy into their points of view because it makes you feel better about the world we live in and makes sense to you in your mind, so let the man have his peace too.
Your comment was in really poor taste man. Really poor taste. You complain and complain about propaganda but use propaganda to hammer your points too. Do not pretend that you are immune. It might do us all good to learn some debating techniques, instead of throwing out emotional knives at each other everytime politics are discussed.
http://www.geocities.com/marcusral/debating.htm
prop.a.gan.da n. 1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those people advocating such a doctrine or cause. 2. Material disseminated by the advocates of a doctrine or cause: the selected truths, exaggerations, and lies of wartime propaganda. Source: American Heritage Dictionary |
| Arthen |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 01:41:13 AM
The ends do not always justify the means. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:53:49 AM
oh oh oh. i see what you're saying. ok. that's different. i suppose that he might have altered and half lied about some things for the sake of making a point. that's understandable, but when you're presenting a point in a serious documentary, you can't go doing that sort of thing, because it puts the message you're sending it jeopardy. people will dismiss it without a second thought if they find that some of the things are intentionally misleading. it's like serving some nice gourmet chocolate ice cream in a bowl of shit. if you can tell the difference, you won't eat it, and if you can't, well, you'll just end up eating shit. not the best analogy, but i stand by it. |
| thomasode |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 12:09:23 AM
It's not because it necessarily "feels good" nor am I saying I am the only one that has ever been tramatized. I just think calling what he is doing "propaganda" is wrong. People died and he was making a valid point that gun violence and the incident that happened at Columbine was and still is wrong. I dont care how he makes that point (that movie had many "non" lies in it) |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 11:27:18 PM
so basically as long as it makes you feel good, you agree. i'm sorry you had to endure all that, but that's a crappy attitude to have regardless. you are not the only one to have been involved with something traumatic, like being assailed with weapons. we cannot let the fear and hate we feel cloud our sense. i find the fact that you allow michael moore's misleadings and near lies because it makes you feel good highly disturbing. |
| thomasode |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 8:42:02 PM
I was reading one of those rip on Moore sites. It was talking about the part when he had the NRA comming to Littleton right after the tragidy at columbine. I read the speach that Heston really gave and the speach that Moore put in his movie. I am not here to defend Moore at any means, but I honestly dont give a fuck what he coppied and pasted in that speach. The thing is that the NRA still came here. I know yall are sayin they have a right yada yada yada. well none of yall hvae friends who were there. None of you have friends that were shot there. None of you know a person who commited suicide because he had so much god damn trama that day. I unfortunatly do. I live in Littleton and I dont care that the movie Bowling for Columbine was all fact or not but, it sure as hell brings solice to many people here in L-town. I am not trying to say I know more than you all do, or felt the incindent more than all of you, but I doubt you had your schools locked down. I remember that day. I was scared as hell. My friends brother got shot. My dad's co-worker's son was the one who committed suicide. and I know many others who were there that day. It traumatized so many people, I think it is trivial to call anything "propaganda" or bull shit or what ever you want to call it. I could care less if there are facts in that movie. I know there are two that are constant facts, the rest I could care less about,
1. Many people were harmed that day and many still are emotionally harmed
2. we need more gun controll in america
those I doubt anyone here will argue with me on.
(sorry if my emotions got a bit out of hand) |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 8:01:05 PM
michael moore is a hack and a fraud. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 7:37:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zachmozach:
Sure Moore has some opinions and thoughts that may lean that way but his facts are facts and don't seem to be twisted in any way
Moore has contributed the most liberal propaganda than any other person. All he does is twist facts and present half-truths, or distorts facts in a way to prove his point.
Links:
Provided by yours truly:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
Provided by Tericee: http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110003233
Provided by Xar666:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp
http://www.dailyvidette.com/news/413482.html
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html |
| Zachmozach |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 5:48:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
[quote]Originally posted by KevinLesko
i don't really know if what the article says is true but it could still very well be leftist propaganda on the same lines as Michael Moore, the Reagon Movie, and other crap like that.
still, sounds intrigueing...
I don't know that I would call the reagan movie, and micheal moore leftist propaganda. Sure Moore has some opinions and thoughts that may lean that way but his facts are facts and don't seem to be twisted in any way. As for the reagan movie I thought it never made it to TV (not that I would watch it anyway) so how would you know it's propaganda. Anyway to me when anyone (like Moore or Chomsky) says think about this and go find out for yourself you can get the facts here ... It's not propaganda. Propaganda is when someone missuses information and deliberately alters the truth to fit their purpose. In which case I think you can't really accuse Moore of more than a tiny use of propaganda.
I'd like to see the movie though. |
| dan p. |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 3:56:49 PM
i didn't trust hans blixx, or however you spell it, at all. how could you? blixx isn't even the name of a human. he's an alien. he could take all the x's out of his name and he'd still be an alien. |
| KevinLesko |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 2:46:18 PM
I just think it offers a different perspective on the matter... sure you can have Michael Moore saying that the inspections worked, but when you hear it from the head inspector from the gulf war, that personally saw to Iraq's weapons being destroyed, it makes for a more credible argument. I found it interesting to hear these different perspectives. |
| Arthen |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 2:24:36 PM
Agreed G-Rock. |
| GRock |
Posted - 12/08/2003 : 2:02:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KevinLesko
check out this story: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/newsarticle.asp?nid=19053
my school was actually one of the screening locations this evening, so I got to see it for free. It's an interesting movie, because it makes the points that the liberals have been making, except this isn't a bunch of leftist liberals, the experts in the movie are mostly made of former CIA members, former gov't analysts, and even former weapons inspectors.
i don't see how being former CIA/Gov't Analyst/Weapons Inspector/etc makes them not "a bunch of leftist liberals".
i don't really know if what the article says is true but it could still very well be leftist propaganda on the same lines as Michael Moore, the Reagon Movie, and other crap like that.
still, sounds intrigueing... |
