| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 1:23:16 PM
What religious beliefs do the people of this board have. I'm really interested in all the world's religions, and this may have been posted before, but any, just out in the open here, what'd you all believe?
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| 100 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 2:30:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by joojoo
Btw: last post, I promise. ;)
books I'm digging right now:
Bhagavad-Gita
Gospel of Thomas
Confucius' Analects
Tao Te Ching
Emerson's Nature
Whitman's Leaves of Grass
All books i've wanted to read, or have read short passages from. Thanks for joining the thread, you sound like you def. are a very well-rounded christian, which is always good to hear. Keep up your work in god! |
| tericee |
Posted - 04/13/2003 : 05:42:34 AM
If you're a libertarian with Christian roots, I highly recommend stuff by Doug Bandow of the CATO Institute.
http://www.cato.org/people/bandow.html |
| joojoo |
Posted - 04/13/2003 : 04:03:00 AM
Btw: last post, I promise. ;)
books I'm digging right now:
Bhagavad-Gita
Gospel of Thomas
Confucius' Analects
Tao Te Ching
Emerson's Nature
Whitman's Leaves of Grass
No offense whatsoever to any Buddhists in the forum, but I tried the Dhammapada, and I'm just tired of thinking repressive things like that my body is nothing but a sack of sinful fluids holding a soul, that my desires are bad, that I am not an individual, just a projection of the universe, etc... If I've misinterpreted any of the Dhammapada, please enlighten me.
Also, maybe off topic, but definitely related: Noam Chomsky. Tim would be proud, aye? But seriously, he appeals to my libertarian leanings. It's kind of like extremist libertarian utopia and therefore very fun to think about (even though this description is a huge disservice to Noam).
Ciao. |
| joojoo |
Posted - 04/12/2003 : 7:43:48 PM
Oh yeah, btw, I have been reading the DUNE series as of late. These books are incredible. A wonderful metaphysical commentary on human nature, civilization, government, and religion, relayed through a wonderful epic of a story. READ IT!! ;) |
| joojoo |
Posted - 04/12/2003 : 7:37:07 PM
Maybe this thread died a while ago... I'm not really sure. But since someone asked, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.
I was born and raised Southern Baptist, though half-jewish on my father's side (He and his family are Conservative Jews), so I've had a lot of exposure to that end of things. I grew up in church pretty much, never missed a Sunday or a Vacation Bible School (Loved the wafer cookies and kool-aid; y'all know what I'm talking about... ;)), And considered myself very close to God in his three persons, had a salvation experience, was baptized, the whole nine. LOL, I still even have the bible drill ribbons at home actually.
In High-school my spiritual desire grew, not shrunk. Going to Church twice a week and volunteering just weren't doing it for me. I needed to give more, to get more. I had a lot of Charismatic Christian friends; I went to service once with one of them at their Assembly of God church, and it was awesome! I felt something I never had before. The speaking in tongues and "holy rolling" and all that had scared me before, but now it seemed perfect. My relationship with God didn't change, but the way I expressed myself in worship had.
I left my high school to go across state to a math and science school, living in dorms and stuff... (think dead poets society, minus the uniforms). Here I was away from home really for the first time, and I still was spiritually very thirsty. I was going to church every Sunday and Wednesday... But the new congregation left a lot to be desired. I never quite felt at home there like I did at my old church where I grew up. I started looking elsewhere spiritually, slowly but surely.
This is a very abbreviated way to put it. that last sentence took about a year and a half to really see itself through. Lots of bad stuff going on at home, being away, a bad congregation, it all sort of started to snowball. I started flirting with music (here I am btw, an intermediate level guitarist), as well as Eastern Philosophy. I read lots of transcendentalist literature, mainly Emerson, then Whitman.
The stuff made sense. I was still praying, still worshiping, I just felt like I wasn't being heard anymore. The hypocrites at church were looking down on me when I knew I had ten times more "religion" (memorized scripture, witnessing experience) than any of them. (I thought this was interesting, btw. They saw me as a strong person that actually believed what he said, so when I started leaving, this hurt them, so they started attacking me. Group-think mentality sickens me) Emerson's pantheism started looking very attractive. I started thinking about it, and actually doing some meditation, nature celebration, that kind of thing, and it's jibing with me very well. When I think of the Universe, the night sky, or even a dandelion growing outside under a rock, I'm filled with every religious emotion imaginable.
So there you have it. I'm still in the middle of my metamorphosis, but for the first time in a long time, I feel really happy. Really.
BTW: This is about a millionth of the story; I don't in any way feel that I've relayed it well enough. |
| GRock |
Posted - 04/04/2003 : 10:45:19 AM
me too |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 03/28/2003 : 10:23:03 PM
TTT for any of the newbies if they want to jump on it. i really enjoy this forum of speaking and want to hear some fresh ideas. |
| GRock |
Posted - 02/21/2003 : 10:22:12 AM
i'm gonna have to reply. i want so bad to sit back and wait for more replies but i just can't do it. and yes it's cuz this is too interesting
So quote:
First off let me say that i totally believe that jesus was a real person, and i really do like everything he said and did on earth. son of god on the other hand i don't buy, but that's jsut me. Beatitudes are one of the best religious texts i've heard.
How can you trust all the things jesus said and say he was a good person and moral eacher and that you like what he said, when he said he is the son of God. HE SAID IT! so did he just make one little lie?
and i know that no matter how many times i ask for people to show me some proff of evolution or even evidence that i will never get it. it doesn't exist. at least not to my knowledge. and if anyone has any irrefutable evidence please share it with me. evolution has been all but disproven in the scientific community and is only still held because it is the best answer to creationism.
vwf said quote:
In my beliefs it is the gods that decide whether you incarnate or not, by what state your soul is in after you die(something along those lines)
i completely aggree. we are finding a lot of common ground. God (singular) decides whether we go to heaven to spend eternity with Him based on whether we have accepted His Son as a saviour from our selfish ways. this is the eternal question, the eternal state of our soul. do you admit your ways are wrong? will you be humble? (i think the beattitudes mention humility a couple times, huh?)
i don't really believe in a hell either. Hell is simply not being with God. not having the Love of God because "God is Love". there is some theories that maybe hell is just nothingness. could be. of course it could be a place where everybody gang rapes eachother and has to watch sitcoms all the time and where there is just no good. but yeah definately not just a bunch of fire.
then vmf said quote:
If the world ended now i don't see why we all couldn't go to a happy afterlife in heaven and not burn in hell for unforgiven sins...
God by definition is Holy. and Holiness can not be with evil (or selfish like us) they just don't mix. like water and oil. this saddened God so much that he sacrificed His Son so that we could be with Him. Jesus's sacrifice covers over and takes the penalty for our sin and allows us to go with God. if God were water and we were greasy oil spots, Jesus is like the soap that allows us to be with God. (and yes i am equally amazed that i thought up an analogy like that) |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 9:12:41 PM
I'm going to try to help comment some more for ya grock, cause this is getting interesting with more debate in and out. First off let me say that i totally believe that jesus was a real person, and i really do like everything he said and did on earth. son of god on the other hand i don't buy, but that's jsut me. Beatitudes are one of the best religious texts i've heard.
on to your questions... What i think of evolution is that it happened, but through the god(s). I don't see why god can use his ways through human explained science, makes sense to me.
After reincarnation you go to "summerland" which is the christian equivalent to heaven if you will. With devil worship it isn't the right way, but you don't burn in hell for an eternity cause of a bad decision, that's just dumb. In my beliefs it is the gods that decide whether you incarnate or not, by what state your soul is in after you die(something along those lines)
Seize the day is just good advice in any case, whether you get another chance on earth or not. with reincarnation you don't remember your past lives, so you're living every life like it's your first(or last). If the world ended now i don't see why we all couldn't go to a happy afterlife in heaven and not burn in hell for unforgiven sins...
Ah well, that's a start at answering your questions... |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 8:04:03 PM
What the hell? I've logged in at least three TIMes, and I'm still not logged in. This is really wierd. |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 7:59:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
for a second there pcbTIM, i thought for sure you were going to tell me you get your entire belief system from a video game. whoa. that was a close one. like the people who believe in "the Force". you'd think they realize that someone just made that junk up.
Haha! Nope. I just found it really interesting. Although in the game, it was more of a science because everything was proven (not very hard since you can make up whatever you want in a video game). I'm more of a "Fallen" Catholic. I still believe in God, but I don't go to church. I'm sure you've run into this before.
quote:
quote:
PcbTIM said
quote:
Final Fantasy VII
best damn game ever.
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| GRock |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 3:08:02 PM
quote:
Maybe the reason why people don't steal, murder, ect, is because God designed us with inherent moral feelings against these things
right on bustoff. that was exactly my point of asking that question. i think God made us in His image. but if not, then where do we get our morals?
quote:
the star wars movies (the good ones the original three) were actualy very hevily based in religion and mythology.
exactly right. they are based on religion. but jedi and all that is just made up by some guy.
quote:
Are you implying that if the world ends everyone goes to hell.
earlier someone said that we all reincarnate until we reach a "blissful place" and that there is no hell. but what if the "ring of reincarnation" just ended? what then?
anyway i look forward to some more responses to my earlier questions. word. |
| Bustoff |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 12:40:17 PM
quote:
If u really believe that the only reason people dont steel, murder, ect, is because of the bible then i would have to say that that is a ignorant thought.
Think of it this way:
Maybe the reason why people don't steal, murder, ect, is because God designed us with inherent moral feelings against these things, as well as inspiring these feelings in the Bible. This would explain why people follow this creed without even reading the Bible. |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 12:22:16 PM
PcbTIM said quote:
Final Fantasy VII
best damn game ever.
Grock said quote:
like the people who believe in "the Force". you'd think they realize that someone just made that junk up.
the star wars movies (the good ones the original three) were actualy very hevily based in religion and mythology.
Grock said quote:
if there is no hell, what would happen if the world ended? nothing?
Are you implying that if the world ends everyone goes to hell.
quote:
why are we moral? why does every culture punish murder? people do a lot of greedy bad things but how do we always know that these things are wrong?
Morals are different from each society to another. "Morals" are created after the group of people decide what is important to them. In some societies its immorral to sleep w/ your cousin, but go down south to that society, and they have different morals. There is no one standard of morals for the world. And the reason that every culture punishes murder is becuase life is sacred. We only get one, (with this conciousness if we are reencarnated). If u really believe that the only reason people dont steel, murder, ect, is because of the bible then i would have to say that that is a ignorant thought. The native americans never had the bible before the europeans came over, and they had a very structured moral system. I think that you were just playing devils advocate a bit, to try to make vwf defend himself, but i had to put in my little bit of thought into it. |
| GRock |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 10:07:19 AM
for a second there pcbTIM, i thought for sure you were going to tell me you get your entire belief system from a video game. whoa. that was a close one. like the people who believe in "the Force". you'd think they realize that someone just made that junk up.
i never realized that the internet is a haven for pagan propaganda (and no i don't mean that disrespectfully) there is a wealth of info out there that i never realized. it doesn't make much sense to me (as i've said before) but it is there for amuzement and education. thanks to you both for directing my search there.
i can see how, in a religion built on lore and word of mouth (wiccan, indian, pagan in general) there can be a lot lost in the translations and what is added to the mix by humans and their selfish ways. but that just makes the bible look more reliable. even though it is translated and things don't seem to match up the inconsistencys are always just in the readers head and the interpretation. from one book to another book (and consequently different authors) in the bible it still all matches up. and dates back as like the oldest complete literature (old testament) more complete than beowulf. and there is more historical proof (documents outside the bible as well) that jesus existed as we read about Him in the bible than there is that ceasar lived at all. (and i can look up my source on this later if anybody is intersted)
i still don't see a lot of my questions addressed in paganism and it is perfectly OK if there are not answers to my questions. and maybe the answers that are satisfactory to you just aren't for me. i need more proof. i'm not quick to believe something or take it word of mouth. i gotta see it (i'm from missouri, the "SHOW-ME" state). and even though God is all powerful, i'm not sure if He can make a rock so big He can't move it. or if the world was made in 7 days or 7 eras. you know, so, we all have some questions we can't answer.
but a few straight forward questions i still have are:
Where does all this come from if not from God? and don't say evolution. evolution is a 1 in 10^7017 chance possibility. and it hasn't always existed cuz i mean the big bang and all. all the proof just seems like it's got to come from God.
Where do we all go when we are done reincarnating? This "blissful place"? what is that. Speculation or do we know what/where it is?
and who/what decides when we are done reincarnating?
like with devil worship (and at least we can agree that that is wrong), are you telling me that even the wrong way is the right way, cuz you just get reincarnated? why should we want to do good if we're just gonna get another chance when we screw up. why should we "seize the day"?
if there is no hell, what would happen if the world ended? nothing?
why are we moral? why does every culture punish murder? people do a lot of greedy bad things but how do we always know that these things are wrong?
thanks a lot for putting up with me and these questions i've had . |
| pcbTIM |
Posted - 02/20/2003 : 12:41:16 AM
I think I understand what VWF is trying to say. Have any of you ever played Final Fantasy VII? The basic belief in the game is that everything on the entire planet is a single entity. When something dies, it goes to the Life Stream, the "blood" of the planet. And the modern man is sucking this stuff up for energy. So essentially, sucking up Life Stream is killing the planet. Anyway, anything born comes from the Life Stream, and anything that dies returns there. Although there is no mention of a Higher Being, it seems that everything on the planet is present to simply co-exist and help each other out. I don't know if I believe in that type of stuff, but it seemes pretty interesting. D'oh well.......I'm done talkin'. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 02/19/2003 : 9:48:21 PM
i'm gonna try to reply to grock here. I personally have very defined beliefs yes. The inconsistincies(sp?) that you point out i think are due to men writting religious texts, and putting some of their own opinions into the mix. That and translations here and there tend to screw things up a bit.
You mentioned devil worship as an example. To me that is just plain ignorance, pure and simple and focusing an entire life to evil just(to me) means bad karma and rebirth into life again to "try it again."
More information on neo-paganism and wicca can be found at http://www.wicca.com/celtic/cc002.htm it's a pretty good informative website. Some pagan/wiccan authors have some inconsincies(sp?) like the spelling of names, or how certain lore goes, but they're minor things in themselves. i hope this helped some, if you have any other questions i'll be checking back when i get the time. |
| GRock |
Posted - 02/17/2003 : 10:17:51 AM
thanks tericee. i wasn't expecting the best answer (and all of them were informative) to my question to come from you. you are pretty well read. and thanks for including a link too. i'll do some reading about some of this stuff.
and tericee brought up a curious point. i am curious if VWF or X, if you both have very defined religious views. maybe that is my fault in the wording of my questions. before i started to really delve into the bible and pray i had pretty much never even thought about religious stuff at all. so i know it is possible to be pretty loose about what one might believe, and to withhold judgement (see agnostic) about many things.
i just see a lot of inconsistencys in these other belief systems. and way more than would be brought up in a discusion of the Bible. i have never found a paradox type thing in the bible that a little further reading and understanding couldn't clear up. i just don't see this in other systems. Do we think it is OK to have incosistencys in a religion? if it is a different belief system maybe it is OK.
and i still don't understand how all the roads can lead to the same place. Jesus said he is the one and only way. so either he IS the only way or he is the only wrong way. you know what i am saying. and if more than one way is right i just don't see how some of the more crazy far out mindsets could possibly be right. take devil worship and the pursuit of evil. how can that path lead to the same place as Jesus and the pursuit of good?
these are just some questions that i have to think about. that i just can't ignore. |
| tericee |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 5:53:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
I'm just looking for a footing in paganistic beliefs and i don't even know where one should/could start to believe any peice of paganism.
The American Heritage® Dictionary says...
NOUN: 1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion. 2. One who has no religion. 3. A non-Christian. 4. A hedonist. 5. A Neo-Pagan.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Late Latin pgnus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pgus, country, rural district.
Pagan properly means “belonging to a village” (Latin, pagus). The Christian Church fixed itself first in cities, the centres of intelligence. Long after it had been established in towns, idolatrous practices continued to be observed in rural districts and villages, so pagan and villager came to mean the same thing.
(Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.)
From this information, I think it is safe to say that Pagan has no more define belief system than mono-theism. I think GRock and I have defined our own beliefs more specifically (if that's the right word)than VWF or X.
Other information that I found in cyberspace shows that "factions" of Pagan include Wiccan, Shamanic, Goddess, Druidic, and Celtic Mystic. You would probably have to delve deeper into the beliefs of each specific group of Pagans to get the answer to your questions, GRock. Similarly, a person who asked what mono-theists believe would have to go one step further to Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, to find answers. (Although I did find websites that claims to have some answers at http://www.circlesanctuary.org/aboutpagan/aboutpagan.html and http://www.cuups.org/content/resources/re/brief1.html)
|
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 5:32:52 PM
well the "god" i'm referring to is the one and the same god that you worship. call him jesus, call him allah, whatever, it's all the same to me. And as to the scientific or mathematical paradoxes that you pointed out, i believe reincarnation by faith, and not by looking up numbers and checking them out, etc... it's just what i believe and i leave it at that. i guess you could say the extra souls, are souls that are born for the first time. |
| GRock |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 2:09:28 PM
I find reincarnation very very hard to believe but i am willing to pretend like it could happen for the sake of discussion. So how do we finally stop being reincarnated and go onto this afterlife. and where do all the "extra" souls come from cuz the population seems to be increasing so they have to be coming from somewhere. which "god" made all of this. where do we come from? I am kinda excited to have someone to explain and answer some of my questions about other religions. I tend to get a lot of people who sink away from real challenges to what they believe.
with no hell, if the world were to be destroyed would we all be "born" somewhere else. or go straight to "blissful afterlife". and how is it blissful. maybe it is metaphysically impossible for the world to be destroyed. whichever "god" made all this won't allow it or made it so it couldn't be destroyed. are we with "all the gods" in this blissful place. surely some of the gods aren't real and are just made up so do we know which ones are false gods. are there any false gods. maybe not?
i don't think there is a real "hell" with fire and stuff like that. it's more of just a place without love. without goodness. without the one true God. so yeah i agree with you (while for a different reason) on that one for sure. word.
but i can't say that atheist aren't going there. atheism has to be the most ignorant of all religious beliefs. to boldly proclaim that in all the worl and universe and everything there is that there is no possible way there could be a god is highly suspect. who has searched every corner of every universe. who has this vast knowledge to know there is no god. only god does. so an atheist is basically saying he believes himself to be god. and maybe they don't see any evidence of god but that is a huge step away from declaring that there is no god. an agnostic i have a lot of respect for. they admit they do not know. but an atheist looks truth in the face and says he can't see it. i hope i don't upset any atheists out there but i'd like to hear from them on this issue. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 12:09:08 PM
my definition of paginism is simply believing all the gods
are one god, and all the goddess one goddess. There are no
gods or goddesses that are higher than each other, they are
all on the same level, and all the same supreme god. So in
my saying "many paths to the same location," it's kinda like
christianity, hinduism, judaism, islam, all leads to the same
end eventually, a blissful afterlife. There are disagreements
here and there, but it's still the worship of god(s), and still
a good afterlife. I personally don't believe in hell, i think
being reborn again on earth is the closest thing to that(and it's
not that close at all either). On earth we learn, we grow
mentally, physically, and most importantly spiritually. Atheists
and agnostics don't "burn in hell," they just are reborn until
they reach a higher level of understanding, or whatnot. I hope
that
helped explain myself a little better. |
| GRock |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 11:52:54 AM
well they can't all be right?!? i mean 2+2=4. always all the time. and water is always wet. some things are always true. so in paganism does everyone think they are right? i know what i believe is the absolute truth but i am still interested in knowing what others think and i don't want any of this to come off as an attack on anyone. just know that.
in paganism the beliefs would have to be pretty loosely held if there is nothing except yourself to fall back on for those beliefs. so how can you know you are right? if it feels right? i am really puzzled by this. How do we decide what is "right". If everyone out there thought that murder was right, surely that in and of itself wouldn't make murder any little bit "right". and if a person individually thought that murder was right for himself, well that wouldn't make it right for him or anyone else either?
I'm just looking for a footing in paganistic beliefs and i don't even know where one should/could start to believe any peice of paganism.
if you could just explain the "all roads lead to the same place" thing a bit more, that'd help me understand more of what you think. I guess what i don't get is how basically what you say is that if i leave St. Louis headed for New York and you leave St. Louis headed for Los Angeles, we both end up at the truth. But How can we both end up at the same place? and if Los Angeles is the truth wouldn't it make sense to tell me about it and inform me i am going the wrong way? and not just sit back and let me head off to my own demise? |
| X |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 11:34:46 AM
the most complete definition of paganism is "any sort of religious belief other than christianity". even atheists and agnostics fit into this category. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 10:22:08 PM
Well for starters you could ask 5 pagans the same questions and get different answers from all of them. some or more influenced from the native amercian traditions, some the celtic, some of whatever visions they've gotten. The great thing about paganism is there's no dogma of "it happened exactly like this..." I think personally that we came from god, and that when we die we are reincarnated until we reach a level of spiritual "oneness"(i guess you could call it) and then go to summerland(equal to heaven, or nirvana) but it's different for lots of different pagans, "many paths to the same location kind of." |
| GRock |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 1:48:33 PM
What does paganism really even entail. Is it a defined set of beliefs or a general earth based outlook or what. I'm just wondering about the specifics so you don't have to get into too much detail.
Where does the pagan believe we came from? Where do we go when we die? Why are we here? Stuff like that. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 5:03:31 PM
well hell yeah then!! i have some def. against the norm beliefs, but overall i'm a pagan kinda guy. Blessed be! |
| X |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 11:45:50 AM
thank you, but technically i'm pagan as well. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 11:37:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by X
agnostic. i have faith that there is some sort of higher power out there, but i don't proclaim it boldly as if i have any proof.
much respect for you there, i've been agnostic before, now
i'm just a proud pagan! |
| X |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 10:46:25 AM
agnostic. i have faith that there is some sort of higher power out there, but i don't proclaim it boldly as if i have any proof. |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 09:16:54 AM
tericee=smart
couldn't have said it better myself |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 11:07:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Silky The Pimp
Hmm... that makes it sounds like the point of religion is much more to accept Jesus than to live a worthy life. I personally find that to be a hard pill to swallow.
I think the two go hand in hand, and there are New Testament passages that suggest the same.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not of works, so that no one can boast. For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.
James 2:14-18 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm and eat well," but you do not give them what the body needs, what good is it? So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith without works and I will show faith by my works.
Once one has acted on faith and accepted the gift of salvation, one should feel a need to start/continue living a worthy life -- just realize that it's not the works that have bought salvation, but the faith.
Note: I keep noticing the interchangable use of the words religion and faith. GRock has said in previous posts that to him it's about faith, not religion. I totally agree. I once heard somebody say that religion is all about man reaching out to God, but the life of Christ is all about God reaching out to man. I'd rather have somebody call me faithful than religious! |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 5:29:04 PM
i don't know the details. and thank God, i am not God. so i really don't like to speculate about these things. i do know Jesus said "I am THE way, and THE truth and THE life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.(John 14:6)" if we believe Christ when he said that He is God then we come to this verse and He makes it pretty clear about how to get to God.
I too have heard what mr. victorwootenfan has expressed but that is only speculation. it is a guess that may very well be true and i hold that as a possibility. i do know, without a doubt, that those who have heard of christ and have been "introduced" but then reject Him will not go to heaven but hell. Only God knows people's hearts and only He will know whether someone has put their faith in His Son.
you don't have to fully understand something to accept it and know that it works. i have no clue how this computer works but i accept that it is true and that it does exist and that it does work. i put my faith in it even though i don't understand it. surely there are lots of things you all put your faith in but do not understand how they work. cars, TV's, sports (for the ladies j/k) etc. like the tax code. i know the part that applies to me and some of what applies to corporations and businesses, and nothing about other parts of it. so i am not expecting to ever fully understand everything about salvation before i accept it.
the reason even the most righteous might still go to hell without Jesus is because as paul said in Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and the prophet isiah said in a revelation of God that "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)". no matter how "good" we are, we are not perfect. that is why i don't believe there are "truly good people" of any religion. even christians aren't good. we are humble enough to accept the Gift of heaven. instead of demanding it for having done our best to be "good". so if no one is perfect and being as God, by definition, is perfect, He can not have imperfection with him in heaven. so hHe gave us a way by washing our imperfections away and paying the price withe the life of His Son.
let me also say that it is perfectly fine to dislike a particular church and still love and trust Jesus. i don't understand all the stuff that goes on at a Catholic mass. and i really don't like the church where my mom brought me up. it turned me off of the religion but that set me up for the freedom i found in the relationship with christ. i go to a different church now, but christ is more important than any individual church could ever be.
i feel like i am running away with this post so keep those thoughts and opinions coming. i asked if anyone believed in absolutes. i, of course, do. and i guess that gives me a firmer place to be challenged from. i just want to see some more things that i can question and ponder over here. are people (in general) kinda more fluid in their beliefs? either way, i'd love to debate some of you all's beliefs too. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 3:41:42 PM
i've heard that people around the world that have never heard anything about jesus but are the outwardly devout to their own religion(let's say buddhism for example), still go to heaven and not hell. But if they have heard of jesus and disregarded him or christianity then they burn. |
| Silky The Pimp |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 1:52:56 PM
quote:
i, in my opinion, am a very nice person. i am outwarldly kind to people and all i care about in life is making the people i love happy. i love music, and art, and film, and beauty in general. however, i am not a religous person. i have not befriended jesus, and i have nothing against anyone who has. does this mean im going to hell?
quote:
CCR, yes. i hate to say that so bluntly but that is the design that God has made. but that doesn't have to be your fate.
Hmm... that makes it sounds like the point of religion is much more to accept Jesus than to live a worthy life. I personally find that to be a hard pill to swallow.
Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the truly good people of religions other than Christianity (Judaism, Islam etc...)? In most cases, people of other religions do not choose their own religion; rather, they're born into them. To take that idea further... assuming that Jesus really IS the only way to heaven... if someone is born to, say, a Hindu family, it could very well take more than one man's lifetime for him to understand HIMSELF well enough to gain the necessary perspicacity to accept Jesus into his spiritual world. To say that the most riteous of people would be damned to an eternity in hell simply because they didn't accept Jesus as their savior within their lifetime seems to be more a fickle human idea than that of an all knowing and forgiving god.
I'd also be curious to hear what you have to say about children of other religions. It would again seem a bit too human of an idea to me to damn children born to other religions to an eternity in hell should they die before they can "convert." Beyond that... it seems to me that what you're saying is that the words themselves are meaningless without taking them to heart. Anyone can SAY, "I accept Jesus," but those words by themselves have little to no meaning unless they are said with honesty... which would bring up the idea of even Christian born children who go to church may say the words, but may only grasp a modicum of their meaning until MUCH later in life. What of those children should they die?
I must say... this thread is a monument of the idea of shared individuality. I can look at any given post and find both something that I agree with, and something I don't hold to be true myself. But seeing all these different ideas is refreshing, because I know that sometimes I forget that among the masses, not everyone truly thinks the same thoughts, regardless of how homogeneous things may seem sometimes. |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 12:29:07 PM
CCR, yes. i hate to say that so bluntly but that is the design that God has made. but that doesn't have to be your fate.
http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/ " target="_blank"> http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/
here is a site to explain the four simple spiritual laws.
or http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/flash/ " target="_blank"> http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/flash/ is the same thing but with flash
of course i also want to say that it is okay to not accept a relationship with Christ. Maybe you aren't ready to make that kind of commitment but He will accept you where you are. like i said He is asking you to be friends.
and to quote myself quote:
whether you believe in God, you could even pray that He lead you to the truth. it's worth a shot...
oh and about being a spokesmodel for christianity, i think i should leave that job to Christ. i don't know. but thanks. |
| Ccr152 |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 12:07:24 PM
everything you said was great. people like you and tom short should be the "spokemodels" for christianity, and its a shame that a lot of people's only experience with the religion is with "brimstone" jerks. but another question i have...you said that you befriended jesus and now you dont have to worry about going to hell. i, in my opinion, am a very nice person. i am outwarldly kind to people and all i care about in life is making the people i love happy. i love music, and art, and film, and beauty in general. however, i am not a religous person. i have not befriended jesus, and i have nothing against anyone who has. does this mean im going to hell? |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 09:41:55 AM
Hey CCR. it breaks my heart to hear about these guys that do that. in that situation my friends and i have a policy of playing "defense" and talking to people one on one so they know that this guy is not living in the love and grace of God but in a fear for his soul. there is an element of fear that should be there but that is not "the message" Christians offer.
Jesus was a pretty cool and he didn't take no crap from no one. he put up with the disciples and was all like "who cares what the others think...who do you say that i am." it had to be frustrating dealing with all these people of such little faith. and then to walk into a temple, a temple erected to worship God, of whom you are, and see all this befilement. He was pissed off. It says in psalms that our saviour is a warrior. and he will defeat evil and that was evil so jesus took a stand.
now for that Brimstone character preaching out on the lawn, he is an idiot. no one is doing anything to his temple. and terri has it right in what was said there. quote:
I might tell him to look to his own Bible and see if ever there was a time that Jesus himself talked to people in this way.
Jesus didn't run around yelling tales of fire and brimstone; he showed love and compassion.
ughh. i just get all in a tizzy about these people. however i do have a good friend (named Tom Short and if you ever get a chance to see him he is honest and very informative) that does this for a living but when he goes to a campus, he is first of all smart enough to do it when it is warm out. and second his message is of love. and he will hear out many opinions and even concede points to those who are correct in things. he preaches from the Bible and again is just telling people about his Friend.
if you've ever had that feeling (like about a love interest) where you just want to shout it from the rooftops to everyone and tell them about this awesome person you met, well that is kinda how it is when we meet Jesus. Jesus saved us from hell and if you accept his friendship, hell is no worry of yours and really, in the grand scheme of things, won't matter anymore.
and on a much lighter note, thanks for the complemint victorwootenfan. it is nice to hear that confirmation. |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 05:55:38 AM
 |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 05:53:52 AM
Looks like it is TIMe for a new page, let the discussion continue! |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 9:40:55 PM
well GROCK, i like your tactics. I like how you phrased the "introducing to a friend." I really dislike the books or people that concentrate on hell and brimstone, and i have not much respect for that. but you're going about it the right way, thumbs up to you! |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 9:36:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ccr152
what would you think if you walked past that man, as he told you that you enjoyed getting drunk or high and participating in wild orgies, etc?
I'm not GRock, but here's my answer...
If I had the courage, I might tell him to look to his own Bible and see if ever there was a time that Jesus himself talked to people in this way. WWJD may be a simple phrase, and a little overused, but I think it can be a useful approach when trying to explain to a fellow Christian where they may be missing the point. Jesus didn't run around yelling tales of fire and brimstone; he showed love and compassion.
The only story I can think of in the gospels that describe Jesus yelling at people is the "Cleansing of the Temple"
Here is the way it was described in Luke 11:15-17... Then they came to Jerusalem. Jesus entered the temple area3 and began to drive out those who were selling and buying in the temple courts. He turned over the tables of the moneychangers and the chairs of those selling doves, and he would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. Then he began to teach them and said, "Is it not written: 'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations?' But you have turned it into a den of robbers!" |
| dan p. |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 8:25:23 PM
i'd stand right next to him and start yelling at people for the same reason. except instead of jesus, i'd say their only salvation is to bite the curb. because they only way to cure them is to end it all. |
| Ccr152 |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 7:36:46 PM
last thursday i was walking back from class. it was probably 15 degrees out and it was snowing, and i was walking with my head down and i heard this man yelling. i looked up and there's this guy in the middle of union square, yelling and waving his hands in the air, and telling us (college students) that we are all going to hell. that we (college students) we're people who loved to abuse alcohol and drugs and sex, and the only thing that could save us is finding and befriending jesus. this man was yelling, talking to shit to everyone there, and at the same time asking us to find his religion. now, i am not anti-christian but i had a very strong urge to walk up to that man and just laugh at him.
this is my problem with christianity. somebody mentioned scare tactics before. if i want to find salvation and spiritual harmony, its not going to be because im afraid of what might happen to me otherwise. im sure that jerk in the middle of union square, yelling about salvation in the snow intended to spread the word of god. he was out there thinking he was doign some good, but i bet you 95% of the people who walked past there he was a fucking jackass. and i bet god was up there smacking his forehead and maybe thinking the same thing. i have nothing against christianity, i have nothing against any religion. but a lot of christians (that jerk in the snow, televangelists) are giving the religion a bad stigma.
i just wanted to ask GRock, someone who appears to be a devout and level-headed christian, what he thought about all this. what would you think if you walked past that man, as he told you that you enjoyed getting drunk or high and participating in wild orgies, etc? |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 5:23:36 PM
a friend of mine use to say this alot and i never really understood what he was talking about untill years later when i became a christian. he use d to say "i am just a beggar trying to tell some other beggars where i found the bread" and that's all i'll do. i won't say "come here jerky and eat this m-f-ing bread". no no. all i'm gonna say is that there is some bread over here.
mr. vicotrwootenfan, I like the boatist philosophy. a lot. i couldn't agree more. if more people practiced just a bit of tolerance this would be a much better world. It's like we have a microcosm of a Utopian society right here on the TR message board.
and the whole converting thing is whacked out. i agree. so many people keep score as to how many people they "converted" (as if it is because of them and not God that anyone would accept Him). see i don't consider myself to be trying to "convert" anyone. i'm just introducing people to my Friend. at that point it is between them and Jesus. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 4:12:40 PM
I'm goin with miss sorrell's here. i like the belief in "boatism." Lot's of people are boatist but just don't know it. Boatism, as my friend defined has 2 rules,
1. do whatever floats your boat
2. tolerance for other opinions and beliefs and religions
Without tolerance there is violence and war, i.e. india/pakistan, the crusades, the witch hunts, israel/palestine, and the list goes on. i just wish people would stop trying to convert other people! i like to be left alone! |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 2:01:37 PM
First off Miss sorrel, i must welcome you here. i too was a first time poster on this subject. and i too was surprised at the civility of the board.
For the flood story to be a part of many many religion's history, it only points that it is most probably true. people the world over recorded this event. and i think the bible's explanation makes the most sense of the catastrophy.
and i aggree that knowing other religions can ground you in what you believe by knowing the options that are out there. in my "journey" i have explored a lot of ways of thinking. and my belief in christ makes the most sense and leaves the least amount of subjectiveness. and i guess christianity is a "religion" but not in the traditional sense. i always see religions as a long list of rules. and things one must do to get to heaven but christianity is about humbly asking for mercy and letting Jesus do the dirty work of meeting the requirements for heaven. i think this is what the author of that article meant. that it is not about the religious part. the relationship with jesus is so much bigger than just a set of laws and beliefs.
quote:
I think that whatever gets you there... whether it's shaking in churches or as my roommate loves to do, smoke a ton of pot and carry deep conversations about how great God is, just do what you gotta do.
I think the disagreements about this is that many have a broad veiw of where "there" is. i think there are many ways to get to a place where you feel spiritual and tingly all over and happy and joyful. but i think that when "there" is refering to heaven and the ultimate joy of being with God, well, there is only one way.
and i'm gonna save my comments about the absolutes as i want to hear some more opinoins (and my lunch hour is over). |
| Miss Sorrel |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 12:15:46 PM
I JUST joined the Tim Reynold's group, and I am stoked about this topic. It's also really refreshing to see that people are being respectful of all the different opinions. It's one of those "no, no" issues to talk about because people are quick to judge... but this forum throws that concept down.
I was raised Catholic, private school and everything (and thanks to Brittany Spears for making us school girls look so damn good)... but my mother's "hobby" is studying philosophy and has traveled far and wide studying religions. In my second year of college I was talking to a sleezy professor about a belief that he told his hundreds of students that I thought was far from true. I shared, in brief about my mother's interest, and he asked if what she found was all bullshit (because apparently those who study several religions all find it to be bullshit  )... and getting to my point... what my mother found in great detail, and what I have found in not as much detail, is that in a BROAD sense most religions are seeking the same thing. They just have different names for it. (ever notice how all ancient religions have a flood story???)
When I was 17 and moving away from home I was talking to a girl I worked with who has had a life from hell, who, and I hope she knows, has been my spiritual mentor. She told me, it's not about religion, it's about a relationship. DING DING DING.... I was forever changed.... I think that whatever gets you there... whether it's shaking in churches or as my roommate loves to do, smoke a ton of pot and carry deep conversations about how great God is, just do what you gotta do.
Sorry this is so long! |
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 11:42:40 AM
quote:
I don't really see the contradiction so, dirtysloth, can you spell it out for me. if you mean that accepting jesus is a religious thing and therefor contradicts that "religion does not pay the death penalty", let me tell you that this is not the case. jesus is a relationship and not a religion. i can't stress that enough. the relationship you have with jesus is unique to you.
Yes, I see a relationship with Jesus as a religious thing. I understand that it is unique for every individual, but I'm not quite sure how that doesn't mean that it is not still religious.
quote:
re·li·gion
n.
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
I would think that a person would have to meet one of these qualities before they can say they have a relationship with Jesus. You have to "believe in a supernatural power" first.
I also understand that the Bible coincides with known historical occurences, but the answer to that isn't necessarily that it's true. It can be rooted in fact without actually being true.
I wouldn't say I believe in absolutes. I believe in everything and nothing at the same time... who am I to say what's right? I have my beliefs, but that's all they are. I could be wrong.
|
| GRock |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 09:35:25 AM
The bible is actually more accurate than any historical document that exists. i think there are some 60,000 manuscripts of the old testament dating back to the same time that beowulf was written where there are less than like 100 manuscripts of that ancient poem. plus other historical documents coincide with the bible on things like the egyptian plagues and slavery, the locations of cities, etc. there is just a lot of proof that the bible is a very accurate document. the bible is unique in this way. there is more proof that jesus existed and did the things he did than there is that ceasar existed at all. i wish i had my book on this subject but left it at home (i post while at work  )
I don't really see the contradiction so, dirtysloth, can you spell it out for me. if you mean that accepting jesus is a religious thing and therefor contradicts that "religion does not pay the death penalty", let me tell you that this is not the case. jesus is a relationship and not a religion. i can't stress that enough. the relationship you have with jesus is unique to you.
and i do believe this is the truth for everyone. my beliefs don't permit me to accept that everyone has there own way to heaven. i am not saying that i don't accept people for not having my beliefs but i do believe i am right. that is not to say i am conceited or think myself better than anyone. only that i am confident in what i know.
and it's ok if you are too and i very much enjoy hearing others opinions on this whole topic.
do you all think there are universal truths? like absolutes?
|
| dirtysloth |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 10:33:32 PM
I haven't gotten into this debate because I thought it would eventually go sour, like these topics usually seem to do. But everybody's being adults here so I thought I'd throw in a question just because I don't understand that article Grock posted. It says, "Being religious cannot save a person either, because religion does not pay the death penalty." And also, "Either a person can pay this penalty themselves--and so not be saved--or Jesus can pay it for them--and be saved. In both ways, God is just because the penalty is paid. The decision is ours to make, and all we need to do is accept God's offer of forgiveness in Jesus." I just find that to be contradicting.
And just to throw my beliefs out there... I'm not a religious person, but I certainly do not dismiss the possibility of the existance of God. If there is a god, and an afterlife, I would find it hard to believe that he would turn us away from heaven for rejecting Jesus, because after all what do we have to go by? The words of other men. Even if the bible is the word of God, how do we know that? The words of other men. So that's where faith comes in, some say. But faith in what? God? No... what your fellow men have told you God is to be. I'm not putting faith down... whatever gives a person inner peace in their life is fine by me. But you have to remember there is no way of knowing that the bible is indeed true, you just believe it is, and that's fine. |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 10:11:26 PM
grock, in my opinion you can not debate for the bible, and prove that it is right or true by quoting from it. sure u can quote from it if u are debating or saying something about or from the bible.
but i dont find it fair that you say all love that everyone feels is only god, no one can prove that what so ever. its like quoting from a pegan bible makes it true just because. im not sayin your point or opinion isnt valid, but i need facts or quotes from outside sources to make me believe one thing or another. sure all opinions are one way or another biast, but the bible is far more biast then lest say...... fox reporting..... (LOL). i think u will know what i mean. but if u are trying to say, this is how my religion feels about the subject then that is kewl. but im trying to make sure your not saying, this is absolutly correct, and to prove it allow me to read from it. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 9:12:27 PM
to GROCK... I have no proof or documentation. but i do have faith in it. Faith is important to me, and don't get me started on "New age stuff." if anything i'm old age, pre-hebrew time religion, pre-agriculture revolution times, that's my religion. the only thing "new" about it is it's revival of the goddess religion. |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 5:59:32 PM
PJK asked: quote:
Reading over this made me wonder, did Fluffy think my post was going to make this thread take a turn for the worst????
Silky answered: quote:
Nope.... when in doubt, assume he means well.
Thanx for the vote of confidence Silky and you are correct. My post could have fallen after any of the above posts. It is the eternal pessimist in me(and having barely survived the Isaac post fiasco)that made me fear that this would at some point have to take a turn for the worst. I am certainly glad and encouraged to have been proven wrong(so far). It is unfortunate that my post just happened to fall after PJK's. Anyway, I am glad to see that this topic is continuing full strength and lots of ideas are being shared and questions are being asked and answered and noone seems to being getting bent out of shape. I wish PJK would be less sensitive to my posts and they are never directed at her in a negative way and if she feels they are, as Silky said,quote:
Nope.... when in doubt, assume he means well.
As I do. |
| Silky The Pimp |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 5:41:42 PM
There is also Morgan's Canon/Law of Parsimony... |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 5:05:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
...it is the simplest explanation that is usually correct. i can't remember who said this (someone want to help me out if you know) but the point is that christianity is incredibly simple.
Occam's Razor: Named for the medieval logician William of Occam, this rule of thumb for deduction states, basically, that the best solution to a problem is most likely the simplest one that explains all the facts.
|
| GRock |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 4:39:10 PM
ok i just found another little blurb in a paper i read about religious works and being good and how that works out with heaven.
""Every person is separated from God by their sin and in need of forgiveness. Because God is just as well as loving, we cannot cross this gulf and have a relationship with Him (eternal life) unless the penalty for our sin is paid--eternal death. If God did not judge our sin, He would no longer be just.
Living a good, moral life cannot save a person because good works do not pay the penalty for sin. Just as we can only pay a $50 speeding ticket with $50 (not by baking cookies for the judge or even paying $49), only death can pay the death penalty for sin. Being religious cannot save a person either, because religion does not pay the death penalty.
Fortunately, because of His love for us, God sent Jesus to die in our place to pay the death penalty we deserve for our sin. Jesus chose to do this because He loves us, and was the only one able to do this because He is fully God (He had to be infinite to pay the penalty for more than one person) and He is fully man (He had to be a sinless human to pay the penalty for a sinful human). Jesus is not only sinless, but He is 100% God and 100% man.
On the cross, God judged Jesus for our sin so that we wouldn't have to be. That's why He is the only way to God--only Jesus was willing and able to die for us to pay our death penalty, thus providing forgiveness for our sins. No one other religios leader has done this; no one else could have done this.
So now there are two options. Either a person can pay this penalty themselves--and so not be saved--or Jesus can pay it for them--and be saved. In both ways, God is just because the penalty is paid. The decision is ours to make, and all we need to do is accept God's offer of forgiveness in Jesus. Either we pay the penalty, or we trust Jesus to save us and He pays the penalty.
To summarize, we can receive forgiveness and eternal life only through Jesus because only He has taken away our sin and bridged the gulf between us and God. It took His death to pay the penalty for our sin. If there had been any other way, Jesus would not have died (Gal 2:21). Considering the sacrifice Jesus made, we should not think it is unfair that there is only one way, but we should be glad that there is any way at all. ""
keep looking for the truth. for it is out there. |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 4:23:23 PM
Where does that sincerity come from? where is the proof that ghandi became one with God, or lived a past life. i might just be missing it but did he claim these things. and is that how he died? i would think that once you "reach a oneness with god" that you would not have to continue living to an earthly death. i just don't see any divine doctrine or any evidence or documentation.
as a beleiver in Christ, i don't put any weight in being religious. or spiritual. or any of that new-age stuff. it all reminds me of oprah. and really being religious and spiritual don't matter. it is a relationship with God that matters.
Luke 13:22-27
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
24He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
in this passage we see people being religious but never knowing Jesus and they are turned away from heaven.
as iam thinking, it is the simplest explanation that is usually correct. i can't remember who said this (someone want to help me out if you know) but the point is that christianity is incredibly simple. i think that is why it makes so much sense to me. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 3:41:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
and with reincarnation i just find it hard to believe that there is no beginning or end or that there is anyone here on earth that is perfect enough and has bettered themselves to be one with God.
I sincerely think that gandhi reached that level. He loved jesus, he loved allah, he loved all the hinduist gods. He was not a "christian" but he was one of the most religious people in the world in the past century. I sincerely believe he reached that level of being one with god, and not born again ever.
|
| GRock |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 10:18:06 AM
I think that no matter whether you are a science minded or touchy feely person, you have to have faith in what you believe. it is impossible to know all the facts and it all takes a bit of faith. and we all have faith in things. like that oncoming traffic will stop at the red light, or that buildings are built to code and won't fall on us when we go inside. these are things we put our faith in everyday. i just thouht it should be noted that if we aren't putting our faith in God then we aren't obstaining from faith but just putting it into other things.
the bible also says in 1 John 4:8, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." so guys (and specifically to therippa), if you have ever felt love at all, that was from God. the love we recieve from God is what gives us the opportunity to love eachother. (and on my sidenote i aggree about the catholic church think we may see the it gone even earlier.)
and with reincarnation i just find it hard to believe that there is no beginning or end or that there is anyone here on earth that is perfect enough and has bettered themselves to be one with God. plus where are all the extra souls coming from. there are more living things in the world today than there used to be so where are all these extras coming from. it just seems far fetched for me. i like something a bit more concrete.
Christ said he was the only way to God. Consider these verses where Christ eliminates alternative ways to God: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me" (John 14:6). "For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). in Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" and then Jesus said in John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" A man could not claim that, Abraham was born thousands of years before Jesus. The wording itself tells us that Jesus was claiming that He was the great I AM, or in other words, God. Jesus told us a whole bunch of times that he was God.
There are many times that other people (both disciples and random people) describe Jesus as perfect (2 Corinthians 5:21, Luke 23:39-41, Luke 23:47, 1 Peter 2:21-22 etc.) but i can't find a specific place other than that one that teri mentioned where he claims it himself. of course in claiming to be God that would be interpretting by the Jews as a claim to be sinless.
No matter what, there is a step of faith involved in what you believe. it's just like that scene in indiana jones where he can't see the bridge to the jewels and so he throws a bit of sand out and sees that there is something there to step on. i hope this board is like that sand for some of us.
And one a personal note, i really like you guys. you all are alright in my book. |
| Silky The Pimp |
Posted - 01/26/2003 : 12:25:18 PM
quote:
did Fluffy think my post was going to make this thread take a turn for the worst????
Nope.... when in doubt, assume he means well. |
| PJK |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 2:55:49 PM
Reading over this made me wonder, did Fluffy think my post was going to make this thread take a turn for the worst???? Geeze, I sure didn't mean to sound harsh if I came off that way. I just really wanted to know and Teri, wonderful person that she is, took the time to look it up and answer me. I really appreciated that!
BTW Teri it occured to me because of your efforts that it has been quite some time since I read the Bible and that I really should pick it up again. My Bible was given to me as a child and with no disrespect intended, it is full of highlighted pages. I used to highlight whatever I felt was especially important to me at the time and I would put the date in the margin. My Bible is in fact a Spritual record as well as a sort of history of my spiritula life.
Maybe just as Jay should lay off the weed I should lay off the posting! hummmm |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 12:19:53 PM
Reincarnation scares me. I tend to think that a lot of organized religion boils down to scare tactics. I happen to be a Christian, but that's just me. I couldn't deal with catholocism because it just seemed more about punishing and fund raising than the true spirit of God. Nothing against Catholics at all...half of my family is Catholic and some of my best friends are Catholic. I think that without the fear of God, people would certainly be more immoral and that some religions take that a bit too far. |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 10:17:04 PM
i agree...with past lives i think that determines what your next incarnation will be like. If you lead a horrific life of rape and murder, your next life you'll be raped and murdered, kinda karma type of thing. but if you're really good, or generous, or kind or whatever it will pay off in the next life, and you'll get that much closer to god, until finally you become one with him, or them. |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 10:06:52 PM
Nope, didn't get the reference. I'll keep thinking... |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 9:29:15 PM
i think the memories from past lives are to be subconsious, intuition if u will. im not sure if i believe in reincarnation, sounds like a good deal though, gettin more then one shot at life, (saint jude starts playing crazy german techno music and starts running.... (well see if anyone gets that reference)) |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 7:49:52 PM
The thing I don't understand about reincarnation is this: if you don't remember your past lives, how are you supposed to know what you're supposed to be doing better in this one? |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 6:11:54 PM
I believe in the wheel of reincarnation. think about it, if you are born into a pretty shitty life, or situation, it sucks that that is your only shot at it. You know, with many lives you could have your ups and downs and not get stuck with one demeaning life. |
| therippa |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 5:46:33 PM
I was raised Catholic (at least lapse-Catholic), attended a Catholic grade school where they forced Bible stories and religous hocus-pocus down my throat. When I attended Catholic high school, I assumed it would all be the same, but all of the theology teachers there (even the priests) took a very fair an balanced view of religion. Instead of insisting that creationism occured (which I believe it most certainly DIDN'T), they would present the facts on both sides and let use choose our own path. Of course, this was all negated with forced attendance at mass, but that's a whole different story.
I've had a problem with church since as long as I can remember. Some of my earliest thoughts are being a 4-year-old boy in church fantasizing that when I grow up I'm going to own a construction company and have the ability to demolish the churches in my hometown a wrecking ball. I've had priests lie to me, any question I ever raised was answered with "well, if you had faith...", and I was appalled and disgusted with the workings of Roman Catholicism. As a sidenote: it is my prediction that Catholicism will be almost non-existent in the US in two generations.
I've tried to find God many times as a youth, and every time I came up empty handed. It could be that I'm a man of science, and have a pre-programmed issue with blind faith. I came to the conclusion at a young age that organized religion was created (and still exists) out of the ignorance of the people who NEED to fill up a void in their life with something. I'm not saying most people are ignorant nowadays (but I will off the record ), but 2000 years ago people were pretty stupid. I've always imagined how much power I would have if I could simply build a time machine and go back 500 years with a laser pointer and a bic lighter...I could say I was Jesus (hell, I'm white enough!). When people go through traumatic situations or lose something of great importance the need to fill the void, and I believe that void is filled with alcohol, drugs, and Jesus (in that order). Most of the people I know that have "found Jesus" generally found him after a traumatic event (or string thereof) and are usually borderline-psychotic with their passion and faith(I believe having a co-dependant relationship with something you've never seen constitutes pyschosis). I agree with some of the other posters on this thread in saying that I believe that there is some force that ties us all together and when we die we have "access" to it (for an interesting read do a google on Edgar Casey).
In high school I had an epiphany...we were discussing what "hell" was in class. The priest teaching the class (who was also in an order of Monks and a very intelligent and pious man) didn't try to convince us that "hell" is fire, brimstone, burning sulphur lake, etc. He explained that "Hell" was total separation from God, in other words God stops sending his love-vibes and it is supposed to be the most miserable and scary feeling imaginable. But it was at that moment that I realized I had never once felt or experienced a love-vibe from God, and that I was already as far removed and separated as an earth-bound human could possibly be, so my life was technically already hell.
On a lighter note, if I believe in anything it's gonna be reincarnation...that way I get to come back and fuck teenagers. |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 5:39:39 PM
I realized that Pam had two questions, so I went to find if there was a place Jesus claimed to be sinless. If anyone is interested, I didn't find that exact phrase, but he did say a) nobody could prove him guilty of sin; and b) he was always pleasing to God. If we assume that sin is displeasing to God the latter implies that Jesus never sinned.
a) John 8:46-47 "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
b) John 8:28-29 "So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know who I am and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.'"
|
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 4:58:09 PM
In my pagan beliefs i am lead to believe that we are all part of god, so jesus's claim to be one with god, could also mean that everyone and everything is part of god. i believe i'm part of the gods, just my opinion though. i'm really against the stance of THIS is how is happened, i relate better to phrases of, "i believe, or i think..." |
| PJK |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 4:57:45 PM
Wow Teri, one thing is true....Ask and you shall receive! Thanks!
It still doesn't change how I feel, because I've believed the way I do for as long as I can remember.
My birth was an accident, my mom made sure I knew this. When you grow up believing you weren't even supposed to be here, you tend to look extra hard for purpose and self worth. I never have felt a great deal of self worth, but I did find purpose in helping people. |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 4:25:56 PM
Thanks Fluff! And thanks to Pam for a good question; I had to look it up. Here is what I found:
John 10:24-30 The Jewish religious leaders surrounded him and said, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus replied, "I told you and you do not believe. The deeds I do in my Father's name testify about me. But you refuse to believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father's hand. The Father and I are one."
Also, John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
A few verses later, it is explained that Jesus was (is) the Word:
John 1:14-17 -- Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory-the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. John testified about him and cried out, "This one was the one about whom I said, 'He who comes after me is greater than I am, because he existed before me.'" For we have all received from his fullness one gracious gift after another. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ. |
| Fluffy |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 4:10:48 PM
Well before this takes a bad turn, let me say, you should all be commended for being able to have this discussion without attacking one another. Respecting each others opinions and comments and offering up your own. The responsible exchange of ideas, concepts and beliefs. I think it says alot about our little message board community. Imagine this discussion somewhere like nancies.org. |
| PJK |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 3:29:58 PM
GRock, where did Jesus ever say he WAS God????????? Also I beg to differ but I don't remember him ever saying he was sinless either..I do believe he lived a cleaner life then the rest of us but I don't believe he was perfect. I know you don't feel that way and I have no problem with that, but don't expect me to agree with you either. |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 07:50:20 AM
Hey Dickey, that experiment you are talking about has a few details you left out. it was done under extreme pressure and very acidic conditions. when the "soup" was zapped it produced a whole bunch of stuff but it did produce one amino acid (the building block of protein)this one amino acid was quickly decomposed (on the order of a few hours) because of the other byproducts produce. no other amino acids have ever been made except this one. also if you have ever heard of chirality, it is the property of having handedness. like how the left and right hands are mirror images but can not be made to look like eachother. (yeah organic chem) well all amino acids used in proteins for life are the L-type amino acids. i believe this is an indication of how God tends to leave his signiture on things. when this experiment was done both types were produced.
I think God does allow some evil to happen to give us a view of how good other things are. i don't believe God punishes us. The bible says that God is love. this is quite a concept since Hell would be the state of not having any contact with God and therefore no love. i think hell is just a place of pure evil and absence of all that is good.
PJK, Jesus said he was God. He was also sinless. He also claimed to be the Son of God. I don't really think it is an option to only believe some of what jesus said otherwise you have to wonder whether you are believing one of the lies or one of the truths. it really is all or nothing. Religion is not just a once a week thing but an ever moment thing. And there is only one way to get to e with God and that is to accept Jesus as your Savior. and not like to save from hell or death or whatever, but to save us from not being with Him.
and spacemonkey, God calls us as his followers to prepare the way. Like of John the Baptist came before Jesus to tell everyone that He was coming. so it is our responsibility to make the world better. some environmentalists think that cuz christians believe the book of Genesis that says we are to have dominion over all animals, that we are allowed to destroy the planet as we please. that is not the case. dominion means responsibility. we gotta take responsibility. we are not to just sit back. we trust that even when little David had to fight big bad goliath, he knew he could do it cuz God was giving him the power. It is called a Body of believers. we are to be His hands and feet and He is the Head. thats just a small anology to see it better. |
| SpaceMonkey |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 02:28:22 AM
"If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
Anybody know what that's from? Hint: a movie.
For some reason, when I think about organized religion I think about the poor, dispossesed people of the world...there are, uh, billions of them. Anyway, have this funny feeling that religion is a way of keeping the have-nots from fucking with the haves. I mean, if you tell people, "don't worry about shit, it's all in God's hands" and the people you tell that to are relatively uneducated and unaware about the world's power structure, and they also happen to be devout Christians, Muslims, etc., it'd be pretty easy to get away with shit while they're waiting for the second coming and all that stuff. Once you have a mass of people following that train of thought, they seem less willing to do anything for themselves in terms of being pro-active in social movements...especially when it comes to opposing governments, etc. Basically, it's what "Get Up, Stand Up" is all about...not relying on gods you can't prove exist to make the world a better place...it's YOUR job! |
| PJK |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 01:56:41 AM
Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
I have done over a thousand post mortems on various species of animals during my years in research. I've also done a fair share of surgeries. Every time I would open up an animal I was amazed at the complexity of the creature I was working on. I also spent countless hours looking through microscopes at blood and tissue samples.I can in no way believe all life was created here on earth by one single celled organism and developed over time. (origin of the species/evolution)
It absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt confirmed my belief in God. Having said that, I am not fond of organized religion. I believe in God, I do believe Jesus was the son of God but is not God himself.
In other words I worship God, but not Jesus. I also believe in the "holy spirit" if you will. A force throughout the universe which I know exists because I feel it every day.
I don't really believe in hell.....fire and brimstone. I don't believe being Christian or any other religion gets one a place in the after life.(heaven) I don't even care about heaven. I figure thats up to God what happens to me after death on earth. My concern is living my life the way my conscience and faith directs. I try to follow the 10 commandments which believe me is no easy task.
I believe in doing for others and helping people out, but doing so without making a big deal about it or drawling attention to myself.
The greatest joys I have experienced outside of having my children have been when I helped people, especially complete strangers. The best part is that only myself, God and sometimes the person or people I help know what I have done. That's the way I like it.
I get teased a lot at work for always smiling. I tell them I smile because I'm happy and that's because I choose to be that way. If I die today I would have no major regrets. I tried to always live each day the best I can. I enjoyed my kids at each stage of their lives and I am so glad I held them as much and as long as I did.
My daughter said to me at Christmas this year, "You know mom, we had some great Christmases, but mostly we had great "every days"." And we did.(still do) This is what religion is all about, the every days, not just Sundays or holidays. Religion is life, not a service one attends. |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:57:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Silky The Pimp
The bible doesn't seem to take account for the huge amount of time that the planet was filled with volcanic activity, dinosaurs... and oh yeah... that 100,000 years that it took man to evolve into what he is today.
I believe that evolution occurs on a small scale, but not that one species can evolve into another, as was posited by Darwin. With all the millions of fossils that have been found why is there not one single fossil find that indicates verifiable transition from one species to another?
I recently learned that there are two "flavors" of creationists:
Young-earth creationists regard the universe and the earth to have been created some six to ten thousand years ago within a six 24-hour-day period, with a global flood in Noah’s day producing major earth-wide geological effects (known as “flood geology”).
Old-earth creationists accepts the time scale of billions of years, and regards many of God’s creative acts as taking place over long periods of time and involving natural processes as well as supernatural acts, like the creation of man and all species animal life.
I've always shied away from the "young-earth" beliefs since there is so much evidence that the world has been here a long long time. But I didn't like the idea of evolution either, so I just avoided the subject for years. Now I'm going look into the "old-earth" beliefs and see what I find out...
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| tericee |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:36:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Silky The Pimp
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
All other religions rely on man doing good works to move to a higher realm or to be reunited with God
Not necessarily. "Sin" is carried out all the time in the name of a higher power. It seems that it would be quite contradictory to say "Thou shalt not kill" ... "that is unless you're doing it for me, god... and then it's cool." Think about all the bloodshed that has come in the name of god, or Allah, or in the name of Jesus. It's pretty hard to look at something like the crusades, and objectively be able to say that the seemingly endless murder was righteous or even justified.
As a fellow Christian, let me restate GRock's claim: "According to the New Testament, there is no deed a person can do that will get them into Heaven." The way I read it, his claim focuses on what God requires of man, as written in the New Testament. (If I've got it wrong, GRock, let me know.)
Silky, I believe your reply focuses on what man BELIEVES God requires of him, which is an entirely different thing. There's nothing to indicate that any bloodshed caused by MAN in the name of God, Jesus, or even Allah was actually endorsed by a higher being. (I'll limit this last sentence to apply only to A.D. since I was talking about the New Testament.)
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| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 7:55:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dickey500
Please remember, there is no PROOF that there is any higher being. If technology were based on the logic that religious fanatics use - we'd all still be living in caves.
I really like how you phrased that! good choice of words. Silky i enjoyed that analytical discussion, good points! |
| Dickey500 |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 5:29:09 PM
I apologize for lack of a name here, but I seem to recall an experiment performed this century that supported spontaneous generation of organic matter. A scientist put a mess of inorganic material in a beaker with water and zapped it with electricity...he managed to produce some of the building blocks of organic life. This is one piece of evidence that an ocean filled with lifeless matter could have been struck by lightning and started the slow progression to where we are today.
Please remember, there is no PROOF that there is any higher being. If technology were based on the logic that religious fanatics use - we'd all still be living in caves. |
| Silky The Pimp |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 5:25:57 PM
quote:
first though, i say thank you for not attacking me. Christians can really get harrassed a lot for voicing their opinions and it's nice to have so many ratioal people here to hear me out.
That's why most of us stick around here... we tend to discuss rather than attack. You really only see people starting to have words when someone comes in and breaks that line.
I am glad that you said that you've thought about other things, but chose what you did because it works best for you... that is how it should be, no matter what other people think. While I don't share your view, your last point about humans not being able to comprehend certain concepts is something that I have had many discussions about with my friends. It's a great thing to ponder what sorts of things may go unnoticed because we lack the capacity to do so. |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 2:21:23 PM
wow silky, i don't even know where to start. but i'll try and answer your questions. first though, i say thank you for not attacking me. Christians can really get harrassed a lot for voicing their opinions and it's nice to have so many ratioal people here to hear me out.
I do not advocate the crusades!! i think it is wrong to kill innocent people just cuz they don't agree with some beliefs.
And in due fairness there are very few contradictions in the Bible. Someone once said that there were and was discredited and still this belief that the bible has a lot of contradictions is out there. if you have something specific i will look at it. they are finding now that when the bible mentioned a city and it didn't appear to have existed, well now they are doin archiological digs and finding these places just as the Bible had said.
Also most of the Historical books of the old testament were written by Moses who was right there as all this was happening. most of the bible isn't handed down stories but of eye witness accounts. at least 2 of the gospels were written in the first century and only the book of John was certainly written in the 2nd.
there are prophecies fortelling wars that were to happen 598 years later that whammo happened over in western asia to the very day. and the early manuscripts are dated to before the war.
i have considered other views but none of them are so consice and reasonable. it makes sence to believe the world and univers was made by God. other wise you have to believe it was all chance on the order of 1 in 10^7000 and that is being generous with the numbers.
Free will says that God made man with the ability to obey Him or to turn his own way. otherwise when we turn to love God it would be an empty forced love and God wanted us to be more than "robots to do his bidding". God wants us to CHOOSE Him. that's what he desires. not that we exercise free will indescrimenetly. and i believe it is instinctual to choose God. everyone is looking for God and every can tell by looking over the mountain top that there is something. and really if you come t a bible with an open mind seeking God, it just clicks.
as far as the beginning of the "story" goes. It's easy to think that God may have instantaneously made the world to appear as though it had an ancient past. this may be why there are so many theories about big bangs and the spring effect or the discrepency between the age of the moon and the earth and the sun. evolution takes more faith to believe in than any religion. really there is no evidence of missing links or test tube life forms created by science. life is pretty tricky to create and i don't think it could both start or progress by accident.
i concede that like the issue of people that haven't heard of Jesus, i don't have much to go on in the Bible about this. Really Genesis Chapter 1 is only a quick chapter that describes the beginning of it all so they don't go into great detail. but maybe this is where that free will comes in and we can think up ways that it might have happened. Keep an open mind to it.
there are some things that we can't ever uderstand because God didn't give us the ability. like forever. the idea of forever can not be grasped by a man who may live 100 years tops. even 4 billion years is difficult to truly understand. and there are somethings that God wants us to decide. Whether to have turkey or ham for lunch. and on that note i am gonna go exercise some free will and get a bite to eat. |
| Silky The Pimp |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:40:36 PM
quote:
All other religions rely on man doing good works to move to a higher realm or to be reunited with God
Not necessarily. "Sin" is carried out all the time in the name of a higher power. It seems that it would be quite contradictory to say "Thou shalt not kill" ... "that is unless you're doing it for me, god... and then it's cool." Think about all the bloodshed that has come in the name of god, or Allah, or in the name of Jesus. It's pretty hard to look at something like the crusades, and objectively be able to say that the seemingly endless murder was righteous or even justified.
quote:
But Christ said He was the son of God. He backed it up with miracles and fulfilled (sp?) hundreds of phrophesies.
Not to completely discredit the bible... but it's a book that is several thousand years old and must be thought of as such. It's a reality that people have been telling grand stories since the birth of language. Think about how much must have changed from its inception to its passing between generation and generation. What we see now could be more the word of John the blacksmith, 3 generations removed from those that walked the Earth with Jesus, than of Jesus himself. As for miracles... people were much simpler, and frankly, much dumber 2000 years ago. If one were to see something totally simple by today's standards, such as fireworks, they may have interpreted it as a miracle back then. Then, again realize that 2000 years separated with storied embellishment, hopping up and down on one foot may have become turning water to wine.
quote:
and don't say Christ was just a "Good Moral Teacher", cuz no moral teacher would teach that he was God and that he was the only way to God, if he truly wasn't. that's not moral.
Why not? That would be quite a way of getting attention... and furthermore, of gaining followers. To give someone credit for being the son of god because they SAY so is frankly just gullibility.
quote:
i think that that when someone realizes they are sinful and knows they need help to take that sin away then they will go to heaven and meet God, even if they haven't heard of Jesus.
I am in no way trying to be argumentative, because I know that BELIEFS are very touchy, so please don't take any of this as being such. But from a purely rational standpoint, have you ever considered the mere possibility that Christianity doesn't have it all right? What if Muslims are right? What if Buddhists are right? Then again, what if nobody is right?
quote:
i don't think this is very likely to happen, though. that is why there are so many people going on missions trips to other countries to tell them about Jesus and stuff.
That stems along the issue of free will. I know contradictions can be found throughout the bible... which, I must say, seems that a book written by the divine, all-knowing, eternal lord himself might be free of such a human error as contradiction. But as a contradiction, why would god give man free will and then turn his back on those that don't do what he supposedly wants them to do? If god wanted every man to accept Jesus, wouldn't it bee instinctual? With the idea of free will, hell seems, frankly... childish.
quote:
but i do think that when someone has heard of Jesus and that he died for our sins and rejects Him that that person will not go to heaven. but will be eternaly seperated from God in hell.
What do we have to prove this other than a bunch of MEN saying, "Take our word for it!" I am not so trusting in my fellow man when it comes to something like that, which in all the lifetimes of all the men that have walked the Earth, cannot be proven.
It must at least pique your curiosity to think about science and how it relates to religion. Science essentially discredits the beginning book of the bible with regards to the creation of the world. That is, of course, unless god created the world... and then waited 4 BILLION years to put man onto the planet. The bible doesn't seem to take account for the huge amount of time that the planet was filled with volcanic activity, dinosaurs... and oh yeah... that 100,000 years that it took man to evolve into what he is today. Unless all this "science" stuff is just hogwash, then either the bible is 'open to interpretation,' or there is some pretty bad storytelling going on there. And if the beginning of the story can be disproved undeniably, why then, are we to believe that the rest of it is any more accurate? It's all just food for thought.
I hope to hear opinions from anyone who may disagree... but I would hope to have replies with thought. Not just a cop-out of "because god says so" or something to that effect.
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| GRock |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:36:43 PM
There really isn't that much in the bible about people that have never heard of Jesus and what happens to them. I know people like Moses and old testament Jews put their faith in God that he would provide a savior. so even though they were before Jesus they still put their faith in Him.
There are plenty of catholics who don't truly believe in the grace of God. they are "good" and they go to church but that's not the way to heaven. See the thing of it is that it doesn't matter how "good" you are. everyone is welcome. Heaven is not for people who are "good" but for people who put their faith in God and accept salvation. jesus said He was THE way.
And i want to make clear that i don't claim a "religion". only that i have a living relationship with God, that is very real. and i am just looking to introduce people. |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:34:49 PM
i belive that enviroment will shape how a person thinks and acts. Thats how rasism is kept going througout the years. if u look at little kids, they will sit and play with eachother no matter what skin color. but after their parents teach the dont like this or that people, then they change.
for everyone, every little thing that has happened to you shapes who you are, and how u think or act. If a kid is boared at school, the cracks a joke at the teacher, the kids laugh, so he does it again, more laughs, so now he just wants to be a wise ass to get postive attention from his peers.
Its all cause and effect.
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| GRock |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:25:41 PM
Kids are mean. they'll lie cheat and steal. two years old and i see kids picking fights at daycare. it's sad really... |
| Saint Jude |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 1:25:03 PM
quote:
but i do think that when someone has heard of Jesus and that he died for our sins and rejects Him that that person will not go to heaven. but will be eternaly seperated from God in hell. and that sucks. you think it's bad here on earth where the love of God still shines through. man...
so fallowing your logic, which is the same as most christians, catholics extremly, is that if i am a good person and i am. i have never killed anyone, i lead a good life, help friends and family out, etc etc, but i dont claim jesus as my savior, then i will burn for all eternity in hell fire.
then if a man were to kill hundreads of people, then while in jail found christ, became his lord and savior, expresed remorse for what he did, then he will bask in the glory that is gods love, up in heven.
im sorry, but a religion that says someone who is good, but thinks differently deserves to be punnished more then someone who has wronged, but thinks in favor of their religion. well im sorry, but thats messed up.
quote:
The bible says that the word of God is written on everyones heart. i think that that when someone realizes they are sinful and knows they need help to take that sin away then they will go to heaven and meet God, even if they haven't heard of Jesus. i don't think this is very likely to happen, though. that is why there are so many people going on missions trips to other countries to tell them about Jesus and stuff.
now with this you have to think back to lets say 1.5K years ago. now there are many religions in the world at the time, lets go w/ shintoist for this example. (japanese religion). and they are usualy well ballanced w/ nature, lead good lives (except for most of the wars that were going on, but not like christians never killed in the name of their god). so these people in japan that lead good lives, never get the word of god to them becuase of the technology at the time doesnt allow them. so w/o claiming jesus as their savior, they go to hell.
also what about the peopel before jesus, they sure cant claim him as their lord and or savior.
also i really hate it when christians say we are born sinful. whoops sorry i was born, my bad. Im not going to apalogize for being human, i think its just a way to scare people into conforming to others beliefs, to create an order, and a world view from someone elses eyes. I would rather, and rather enjoy, looking at the world from my eyes.
The truth is that we will never know on earth if there is a god or not. Unless s/he shows up and beats the crap out of who ever is anoying it at the time, (GW o please o please). So i think that we need to focus on the lives that we are living now, live in the moment, and enjoy it. Not to constantly worry about what we do, and force othres gods on people. Im not saying that all christians do this, i have alot of respect for religious figures that have spent their entire lives researching history and religion. And they search for knowladge, which is great. becuase we are all ignorant children w/o said knoladge, and history will repeat itself.... now i must go to the gulf now and get rid of sadam.
This is Saint Jude saying good bye, 1-23-1993 |
| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 12:12:17 PM
One of my friends is an apathetic agnostic. "I don't know and I don't care." |
| Bustoff |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:47:43 AM
My friend is an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac that lies awake at night pondering this question:
"Is there a Dog?" |
| CPPJames |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 11:23:37 AM
An interesting thing to think about is whether people are born with morals or they're developed by surroundings. Does a newborn child know right from wrong? I find myself coming back to that one a lot. Ties in with the "some people are just born evil" argument.
James |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 10:37:41 AM
quote:
origianl post by victorwootenfan
I read the bible, as well as other religious texts and writings, and i don't see millions of buddhists preists burning in hell for eternity because they haven't heard the "good word" of christ.
The bible says that the word of God is written on everyones heart. i think that that when someone realizes they are sinful and knows they need help to take that sin away then they will go to heaven and meet God, even if they haven't heard of Jesus. i don't think this is very likely to happen, though. that is why there are so many people going on missions trips to other countries to tell them about Jesus and stuff.
but i do think that when someone has heard of Jesus and that he died for our sins and rejects Him that that person will not go to heaven. but will be eternaly seperated from God in hell. and that sucks. you think it's bad here on earth where the love of God still shines through. man... |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 10:25:51 AM
All other religions rely on man doing good works to move to a higher realm or to be reunited with God. they are man-ianities. But Christ said He was the son of God. He backed it up with miracles and fulfilled (sp?) hundreds of phrophesies.
and don't say Christ was just a "Good Moral Teacher", cuz no moral teacher would teach that he was God and that he was the only way to God, if he truly wasn't. that's not moral. He was either God in the flesh or something far worse, but i see nothing to make me think He was evil. and that only leaves one option...
Again, i encourage your pursuits of truth. thats why i am still reading my Bible. and didn't stop at just becoming a believer. you have to pursue the truth and cling to what is good...
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| victorwootenfan |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 9:03:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GRock
I was a lot like you when it comes to this. it's good that you believe that there is a God. He is pretty cool. problem is that He wants you (and all of us) to know Him. I totally believe you are out there. that doesn't mean we have a friendship or that i know you or anything.
read the bible on your own. maybe go to an evangelical church with a preacher that preaches from the bible and uses it a lot. make it clear that you are searching for the truth and don't want anything crammed down your throat. and you'll find it. i encourage you to look for truth.
if you believe in God, you could even pray that he lead you to the truth. it's worth a shot...
I believe in gods, and whatnot, i'm the pagan of the group. i don't believe in the devil, i think that's a screwed up way the catholics made the horned god appear to be(God of the Hunt). I read the bible, as well as other religious texts and writings, and i don't see millions of buddhists preists burning in hell for eternity because they haven't heard the "good word" of christ. Don't get me wrong, I love the sermon on the mount, as much as i love the battlefield scene with Arjuna, or the stories of the olden pagan mysteries. They're all equal in my book. |
| Silky The Pimp |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 5:58:14 PM
quote:
believers and athesists stand on the same soapbox with equal arguments.
I've been a bit too busy to post much recently... but I just wanted to chime in that insinuating that there is a false dichotomy between bible beaters and athiests is brilliant. I've never thought of it that way. |
| tericee |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 5:39:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by victorwootenfan
Well there's evolution and creationalism. In my opinion you can say that god created everything with evolution, that science is the gods' "workshop." kinda like they tinker with what's going on, instead of poof, it just happens. but that's just what i think, so neither opinions contradict each other. adam represents early man, and 1 day equals a few million years, etc..
I believe they still call it the THEORY of evolution... Creationists and Evolutionists also stand on equal but opposite soap boxes.
teri |
| therippa |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 5:12:24 PM
I believe in Dog |
| Dickey500 |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 4:45:23 PM
That was horrible logic, G. There is no proof that God exists - and no proof that he doesn't exist - therefore, believers and athesists stand on the same soapbox with equal arguments. Anything that was "created" by God can just as easily be dismissed as chance. Bold statements about the presence or absence of God are nothing more than belief gone awry. The bottom line is this: if you think there is a God, and this thought comforts you and helps you through life, congrats...but to say that those who believe in nothing are wrong,is unfounded and intolerant. If there is a God, and he's as cool as the Bible says, then He'll forgive me for using the mind that He gave me. Remember, the Bible's just a collection of stories written by men...no more valid as a guide to life than Aesop's Fables. |
| GRock |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 4:29:27 PM
I was a lot like you when it comes to this. it's good that you believe that there is a God. He is pretty cool. problem is that He wants you (and all of us) to know Him. I totally believe you are out there. that doesn't mean we have a friendship or that i know you or anything.
read the bible on your own. maybe go to an evangelical church with a preacher that preaches from the bible and uses it a lot. make it clear that you are searching for the truth and don't want anything crammed down your throat. and you'll find it. i encourage you to look for truth.
if you believe in God, you could even pray that he lead you to the truth. it's worth a shot... |
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