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JTR
Chatterbox
417 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2004 : 7:37:48 PM
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| This question is more aimed at Fluffy, but if there is a post that answers my question from back the day don't hesitate to point it my way. Anyways, I'm in line to get a weekly gig at a campus coffee shop and play some "acoustic instrumental folk jazz," or whatever title you want to give to TR's music. Anyways, although I have a few songs of my own, I'd love to play my renditions of his songs. I'm just wondering if there is any reason why I could not cover them. I know there's been many a post about making TR's songs your own and reinventing them, but I've never, as I recall, heard of anyone playing them for a crowd on a regular basis. Well, as I ramble on, I'd like to make sure I'm not encroaching on TR's property. Thanks in advance. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 7:48:17 PM
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| I'm in the same position as JTR, with opportunity to play some acoustic music at a coffee house or two, and wondering the same thing JTR is. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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JoeGamo05
Chatterbox
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 8:56:41 PM
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| i know at my coffehouse at my school... im' just gonan jam up t here and part of it is a part of Jamez Rolling Waves just done with my own flavor... |
When the trees start walking, the ground starts moving, your insane, your insane |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 9:05:58 PM
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| i just play the song and give credit where it's due either before or after. |
death to false metal. |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 09:35:37 AM
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I've always heard conflicting things about this. Not speaking about TR in particular, but about covering other musicians/bands. I've heard that if you cover an artist, you're violating the copyright, etc... and thus breaking the law. An open mic that used to be held at my local Barnes & Noble was ended because there were people coming in and doing covers, and the manager of the music there thold me that corporate didn't want to get sued, so they ended the open mic, which pissed me off. Because while these douchebags were going in there and playing Weezer and Everclear covers, horribly I might add, I was playing 100% original music.
But, ask yourself, how many bands/artists do you see locally that bust out a cover or two in a set. One of my favorite local bands, 30 Seconds of Shame, breaks out a Tool or Rage cover at least once or twice a show, and I highly doubt any royalties are being paid to these artists. Putting a cover on an album is a different story of course, but if you're playing for a crowd of 85% your friends and family, who gives a shit?
As far as I'm concerned, if I'm at a gig, and I say "This next song is called There Is No Judgement, and it's by Tim Reynolds" or something to that effect, what's so wrong? I'm not claiming it as my own creation. God knows I can't write like that 
Adam |
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KevinLesko
Alien Abductee
3712 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 12:26:40 PM
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| Oddly enough, I just found out that the reason you see so many of those stupid "string quartet tribute to..." cds or "Guitar tribute to..." cds is because somehow they do NOT have to pay royalties to the original artists. This would seem to imply that it does not cost money to cover songs. In this case, even when money is being made. However, I think there are certain artists that specifically do not allow their songs to be covered. Jimmy Buffett comes to mind. I guess it's a tricky subject |
god
Kevin |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 1:13:44 PM
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So if Dave Matthews, or some other artist wanted to cover Jimmy Buffett at a concert, or on a CD, there would be some legal action taken by Mr. Buffett?
Adam |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 1:40:59 PM
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| probably no legal action would be taken, considering an artists usual reason for having such restrictions on covers is to prevent someone from making a poor cover, butchering the song. Remember Paul and Michael Jackson? Paul thought Mikey boy dint deserve rights to his songs because he would have pretty much ruined them, or played them very poorly. If Dave Matthews were to do a live cover of Jimmy Buffett, I highly doubt Jimmy would think twice about it, except for the possibility of him being flattered, or maybe impressed by Dave's performance. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 2:32:56 PM
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| also, consider if you cover a song that you're "not allowed" to cover. anyone going to turn you in? someone's going to write master buffet and tell on you? not fucking likely. |
death to false metal. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 3:04:11 PM
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The way I've heard it is, legally, you can play a song live, and you don't have to ask for permission to use it. If you try to release the song on a live album or make money off of it, you have to get permission from the artist.
Like GG305 said, just give TR the credit. |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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JTR
Chatterbox
417 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 3:07:53 PM
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| Obviously, I intend to give credit where credit is due. But, also, if there happened to be some reason that TR didn't want me or people like me to cover his songs in public venues, I would be more than happy to obey his wishes. That's why I'm asking. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2004 : 3:34:05 PM
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| Well, that would definitely be a question for Fluffy, but I've never heard of any instance where Tim shouted in a raspy deep voice: "Verboten!" |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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CPPJames
Yak Addict
Fyro Macedonia
800 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 08:41:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthen
I've never heard of any instance where Tim shouted in a raspy deep voice: "Verboten!"
I haven't heard that either...but I think that'd be a sweet sound for when your password doesn't work or something, LOL. |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't. |
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Arthen
Alien Abductee
USA
4845 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 12:39:17 PM
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| That would be! Maybe on the next internet album... |
Steve Hackett: "I'm my own opening act, you see."
Tim (before "Faceoff"): "Peace, love....and SEX!"
cbenc41@hotmail.com |
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JakStraw
Is Anybody Here?
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2004 : 11:54:43 PM
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I'm a music business student and i've taken a course mainly about copyright law and other courses dealing with royalties and licenses. I'm pulling this off the top of my head so the details are a little fuzzy but as far as covering songs in a public place goes, it's a matter of whether or not the venue is licensed and payes dues to BMI, ASCAP, or SESAC... these are called "performance rights organizations" and they collect fees (usually anually) from venues who wish to have performers play copywritten material. Now you may be thinking "does that mean that someone like dave matthews gets paid twice for doing a concert?... once by the venue and once from the PROs (performing rights organizations)?".... the answer is YES... IF he is the one who owns the copyrights to the songs he plays... but if, for instance, someone else owns the copyrights then that person would be paid instead......... I hope all this makes sense and i'm going to check back through notes to makes sure i didn't just lie my ass off, but if anyone has any questions feel free to get me on my screen name Cuervo3827 or email me at Romajp42@oneonta.edu |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2004 : 5:50:06 PM
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| whoa. new guy. and with good information, too. how many places are licensed? |
death to false metal. |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 1:44:32 PM
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| not sure i followed that completely... does it apply to say, a coffee joint or bar, or anywhere that would want live background music? |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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dan p.
Alien Abductee
Uganda
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2004 : 5:46:27 PM
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| it applies to any establishment, i believe. |
death to false metal. |
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goat1927
Is Anybody Here?
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 5:08:10 PM
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i have a different take on this topic...
i am a musician. i know and understand the music business approach posted above - very helpful info.
my take is this: play what you fucking love to play and what people love to hear...
it's true that copywrights and such can be present, but i think that applies more so to shows where people are playing others' music and making $$ off it at a venue.
if you show up at the mickey's blue room open mic in nyc and play flourescence and credit tim - self-explanatory. if you play it and don't credit tim, your bad. if you play it and claim it as your own if you answer "yes" when someone asks you if it's such and such a tune, way your bad...
i would credit whoever's tune i covered unless it was so apparent that people knew what i was playing - tim especially.
industry people sometimes fuck too much with music. enjoy the shit, make people happy, and keep a good moral checker in the back of your mind. ending an open mic though due to covers is a load of donkey shit; true their purpose is to allow people to perform and be heard, but if jimi didn't cover watchtower, would we have ever known the enjoyment people get out of hearing that tune???
NEGATIVE.
be smart, be kind, and make music...
mj
"i knew a girl called pandora once. never got to see her box though..." |
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GuitarGuy305
Alien Abductee
USA
2007 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 6:59:46 PM
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I think that was the deal with the B&N open mic. The guy mentioned something about paying those dues, and that they were allowed 6 musical performances a year. If they had an open mic where 3 different guys played DMB, Weezer, and Everclear, they had to consider that a musical performance, and they would have to pay additional dues if they went over 6. And a place like B & N does have musical acts occasionally, but the guy told me that since they had 2 open mics that year before they stopped it, they could only have 4 for the rest of the year.
Basically, the music industry is greedy and B&N are cheapskates.
I do have to give the guy credit though. He had a big deal going on with B&N corporate trying to get the open mic started up again for music, pretty much only for me, because he knew that I did only originals.
Adam |
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Offspring
Try A Little Harder
65 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 6:40:56 PM
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Two nights ago at an open mic place I played Kundalini Bonfire---> Stream. It was really fun! |
My band
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www.myspace.com/soundcurfew |
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JTR
Chatterbox
417 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 2:26:04 PM
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| Fluffy, I saw you'd been around lately. Thought I'd just bump this back up to get your input. |
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Fluffy
Administrator
USA
10739 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 2:32:04 PM
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Well since it was posted, this thread has gotten wildly out of control and even I have learned a few things about this.(if all that was posted is true) It was always my understanding that songs played live did not fall under an copyright laws as long as they where not being broadcast or recorded for release(without the proper permission of course). As we all know, bands constantly release covers. As long as you have the proper permissions and are paying the proper royalties this is standard music industry procedure. It seems to me that where it gets sticky is making money off the cover. I don't mean like getting paid for a performance at coffee house or club while playing a cover of someone elses song but I mean more in the releasing an album with a cover on it and selling a million copies.
The short answer is: TR certainly does not mind people covering his songs in public performance. Say you were to record that performance and distribute it freely over the internet. I still would imagine TR would have no problems with this. I would even venture a guess that if you recorded one of your live shows covering TR and released it independently(basically burned or pressed copies that you personally sold at your shows)I still can't imagine TR would have a problem with it. I think he would see it as unless you are making a living off his songs why would he want money from you for playing his music. On the other hand, if someone like(don't crucify me for saying this)John Mayer wanted to cover a TRack for his new CD(not that he could, but lets just say for the sake of argument that he wanted to)I think at that level TR would expect some reimbursement(royalties). If anyone on this board were to record and self-produce a CD with a TRack on it I would imagine TR would be fine with it as long as you noted on the CD that it was composed by TR. TR is certainly not a money grubber like Metallica and Garth Brooks. As you will notice TR plays many covers in his live set that don't make it to commercial releases. He sees covers as a tribute to a great song. I think he would take anyones covers of himself as the same thing. So play away! Play all the TR covers you want, just spread the news about who wrote the song by giving credit where credit is due and it's all good. Of course when you have a top ten hit with a TR song expect a call from our lawyers. LOL |
Peace & Keep the Faith
Fluffy         
"THE MUSIC BUSINESS IS A CRUEL AND SHALLOW MONEY TRENCH-- A LONG PLASTIC HALLWAY WHERE THIEVES AND PIMPS RUN FREE AND GOOD MEN DIE LIKE DOGS. THERE'S ALSO A NEGATIVE SIDE..." -Hunter S. Thompson |
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JTR
Chatterbox
417 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2004 : 12:21:47 PM
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Well, time has come and gone, and I did my TR-based set list at my local coffee shop the other night. Just thought I'd update and give you the setlist. Went relatively well, although most people didn't really stick around to see what I was doing, but a few seemed to be into it. Here's the setlist:
Delay Jam Intro
Feeling Doors
Only Love Can Break Your Heart (Young)
Ten Years Gone (Zeppelin)
Rheginos and the Resurrection
In Your Eyes (Gabriel)
Mercy Street (Gabriel)
And Then They Were Free
Offspring
Decline In Reason
Big Blast of Hot Ass (with some Radar Contact)
Smile
Imperamanence
After The Dust Settles
You Are My Sanity
As Far As You Can See
Ohio
Flourescence
Kundalini Bonfire
There were DD-5 delay jams between pretty much every song for around a minute or two. Went pretty well, I'd say. For some reason my fingers were infected by my nerves/jitters during ATTWF, and I inadvertently muted strings here and there and had to slow down a bit, but the rest went well. Thanks again Fluffy. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 7:31:21 PM
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i'd like to hear as well.
while we're on that subject, if anyone wants to hear some covers or original stuff ive recorded, IM me at guitarisPIMP or leave me an email or some other way to getting in touch/sending audio. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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guitarisPIMP
Yak Addict
Niue
587 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 7:45:00 PM
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yeah sounds like an awesome set. i'd like to hear as well.
while we're on that subject, if anyone wants to hear some covers or original stuff ive recorded, IM me at guitarisPIMP or leave me an email or some other way to getting in touch/sending audio. |
my favorite color is go fuck yourself. :D |
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JTR
Chatterbox
417 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 05:10:44 AM
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| Unfortunately I don't have anything with which to record, although my roommate has something (which is at his house in Virginia about 700 miles away). I'm doing another show-thing here in about 4 days, so if I find a way I'll try to record them. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
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JTR
Chatterbox
417 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2004 : 12:55:33 AM
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Here's my most recent setlist. Unfortunately, I could not record it, but this time we had a DI so that made things a little easier/clearer on the sound system. I'll probably just record a few tracks with my computer's mic and upload them so you can check them out. Here's the list from Wednesday:
(DD5 jams throughout)
Kundalini Bonfire
Feeling Doors
Only Love Can Break Your Heart ->
After the Gold Rush ->
Ohio ->
Ten Years Gone ->
Kashmir ->
No Quarter
In Your Eyes
Rheginos and the Resurrection (Shock the Monkey)
And Then They Were Free
Offspring
Decline In Reason
Big Blast of Hot Air/Ass/Mass (Radar Contact)
There is No Judgment
Buffalo Soldier
Smile
Imperamanence
After The Dust Settles ->
You Are My Sanity
As Far As You/Me/We Can See
Flourescence
Stream
Thanks again to Fluffy for the green light. |
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Hopeful Rolling Waves
Alien Abductee
South Sandwich Islands
2154 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2004 : 08:10:28 AM
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| Nice setlist once again, good call on No Quarter. Let us know how we can hear those tracks if you get around to recording them. |
http://db.etree.org/hopefulrollingwaves/ < My Trading List |
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Topic |
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Covering TR's Songs in Public
